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Alright. Who should I fall in love with next?

phoenix31

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I'm not completely sure that I used the word correctly, but I don't think you know what I mean by a "meme". I'm not talking about a funny little picture with a line of text, I am referring to an idea which spreads between people.

I had to go back and edit my post, sorry. Are you trying to say that the system is good but the test is bad?
 

Pionart

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And you just said that MBTI was "very important" and then in the next breath, you said that it's inaccurate and useless. Okie doke.

What I am saying is that determining your type from taking an MBTI test is a very clumsy way to do it. We do have a type, approximated by the MBTI, but you don't figure out by taking a test, unless that test happens to be highly accurate and your self-perception is highly accurate.

I had to go back and edit my post, sorry. Are you trying to say that the system is good but the test is bad?

Yes, I think that's it. It depends on what you mean by "the system".

What I am saying is that we do have a type. That is something that exists in reality (see my post in the Multiple Personalities thread for more information on how it works), but most information on the subject is highly flawed. Even most of the experts don't know what they're talking about.
 

phoenix31

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What I am saying is that determining your type from taking an MBTI test is a very clumsy way to do it. We do have a type, approximated by the MBTI, but you don't figure out by taking a test, unless that test happens to be highly accurate and your self-perception is highly accurate.

I took the actual full test administered by someone who was trained to do it, and that was over a decade ago, and it's been true ever since, as well as all the online tests I've taken. But I don't know enough about the test to make any comments about whether it has flaws. I just know it worked for me.
 

Pionart

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I took the actual full test administered by someone who was trained to do it, and that was over a decade ago, and it's been true ever since, as well as all the online tests I've taken. But I don't know enough about the test to make any comments about whether it has flaws. I just know it worked for me.

It's bound to get it right some of the time, but not the majority of the time.
 

Coriolis

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Who should you fall in love with next? That's easy.

Yourself.
 

Pionart

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Opposites attract, sure, but for how long? Maybe as a short fling, it could work, but my heart was never built for that sort of thing. I have a tendency to attach and expect things to grow and expand, and I can't stand stagnation.

One more thing: a problem with pursuing whoever you're attracted to, is that it could be kind of attraction that will result in a fling and then wear off.

But with your complimentary type - e.g. for an ENFJ this is INFP - this is the most likely to have long-term potential. It has the most potential for growth.
 

phoenix31

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One more thing: a problem with pursuing whoever you're attracted to, is that it could be kind of attraction that will result in a fling and then wear off.

But with your complimentary type - e.g. for an ENFJ this is INFP - this is the most likely to have long-term potential. It has the most potential for growth.

:shock: This is driving me crazy. You're just making this stuff up. There is no basis for anything that you are saying.

I'm sure all the happily married/partnered couples who don't have perfectly complimentary types don't know anything about having good potential for growth...
 

Pionart

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:shock: This is driving me crazy. You're just making this stuff up. There is no basis for anything that you are saying.

I'm sure all the happily married/partnered couples who don't have perfectly complimentary types don't know anything about having good potential for growth...

After years of contemplating typology, including compatibility, it is the conclusion I have come to, and while it may become more refined, it is unlikely to change in its fundamentals.

I never said that only the ideal type has potential for growth, but that it has the most potential for growth. Or perhaps I should say that on average it has a significantly higher potential for growth than any other type pairing.

You can find pairs of non-ideal partners who have shown greater capacity for growth than specific pairs of ideally paired individuals, but this does not contradict what I'm saying.

Do you think all types have an equal potential for growth, i.e. that if you were to randomly select someone who fits relevant non-type related criteria, that you would be unable to use type as a predictor for how well the relationship functions?

^ To be more concrete:

Suppose that you had several people, and there were marriages being arranged for them. The person they are getting married to is randomly selected from the population of people of the opposite sex, and appropriate age and location, with all people considered being heterosexual. i.e. they are no more likely to be paired with one type than another (apart from potential differences in type distribution), and how compatible they happen to be is not considered.

Now, suppose that someone made accurate assessments of the types of all people involved, and wanted to make a prediction of which relationships would work out and which ones wouldn't.

Would the person be able to use their types to make those predictions*, and thus guess significantly above chance rate as to how well the relationship would go: yes or no?

* assume also that they're only using the intertype relationship between the type of that pair, not their specific types, e.g. if ESFJs just happen to produce better relationships than people of certain other types, then that is not relevant.
 

phoenix31

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After years of contemplating typology, including compatibility, it is the conclusion I have come to, and while it may become more refined, it is unlikely to change in its fundamentals.

I never said that only the ideal type has potential for growth, but that it has the most potential for growth. Or perhaps I should say that on average it has a significantly higher potential for growth than any other type pairing.

You can find pairs of non-ideal partners who have shown greater capacity for growth than specific pairs of ideally paired individuals, but this does not contradict what I'm saying.

Do you think all types have an equal potential for growth, i.e. that if you were to randomly select someone who fits relevant non-type related criteria, that you would be unable to use type as a predictor for how well the relationship functions?

Yes, I think any type has an equal potential for growth if maturity has happened, because people can shore up their weaknesses. I'm an Intuitive, so I love to have conversations about abstract topics for hours. Not every Sensor I've met hates talking about abstract concepts for a long length of time, because some of them have developed their ability to do that and find it pleasant, and actually are very enjoyable to talk to. Or, as a Feeler, I used to base a lot of my opinions on how I felt instead of rationally and fully thinking things through, and I flew off the handle a lot and got emotional very easily. But I have matured and use more rational thought and a calm manner of approach much more often now, even though my default method of processing things is still as a Feeler. Which makes my compatibility and potential for growth with others completely different than it would have been ten years ago. Etc.

Do we get along better or are we naturally more attracted to certain types? Sure, I would imagine that is true for most people. But to rule someone out based on type and look for one type that is supposedly the perfect candidate to provide you with everything your heart desires A) reduces your potential partners by a LOT and makes it highly unlikely you're going to find someone satisfactory, and B) does not give people the respect of realizing that growth and maturity does happen and that people are capable of more than the initial strengths and inclinations they were born with.
 

phoenix31

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And additionally, another aspect of relationships that is important is that you don't have to get all of your needs met from one person. In fact it's putting a ton of pressure on someone to suggest that you should get all of your needs met from him or her. So if there are ways in which you are compatible with someone, and other ways in which you don't share interests or aren't quite as compatible, plenty of couples still have healthy relationships where they find a way to make that work. Extroverts hanging out with friends more often if their spouse doesn't want to go out every night, for example. Or Intuitives who work in an academic field or find people online to have discussions with if their partner is a Sensor who doesn't enjoy tons of abstract conversation. In the same way that maybe couples have hobbies or interests that they don't always share, and will sometimes pursue those things alone in their spare time or with someone else. You don't have to be perfectly, 100% percent compatible with someone to have a healthy relationship.
 

Pionart

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Yes, I think any type has an equal potential for growth if maturity has happened, because people can shore up their weaknesses. I'm an Intuitive, so I love to have conversations about abstract topics for hours. Not every Sensor I've met hates talking about abstract concepts for a long length of time, because some of them have developed their ability to do that and find it pleasant, and actually are very enjoyable to talk to. Or, as a Feeler, I used to base a lot of my opinions on how I felt instead of rationally and fully thinking things through, and I flew off the handle a lot and got emotional very easily. But I have matured and use more rational thought and a calm manner of approach much more often now, even though my default method of processing things is still as a Feeler. Which makes my compatibility and potential for growth with others completely different than it would have been ten years ago. Etc.

Do we get along better or are we naturally more attracted to certain types? Sure, I would imagine that is true for most people. But to rule someone out based on type and look for one type that is supposedly the perfect candidate to provide you with everything your heart desires A) reduces your potential partners by a LOT and makes it highly unlikely you're going to find someone satisfactory, and B) does not give people the respect of realizing that growth and maturity does happen and that people are capable of more than the initial strengths and inclinations they were born with.

The fact is though, that discussing abstract topics takes more energy from a Sensor than it does for an Intuitive. Sure, there are Sensors who can discuss abstract topics, and Intuitives who can discuss things that are factual/concrete, but it is about how natural those things are for the person.

You can have a positive relationship - I mean relationships in general there, not specifically a romantic/lifelong partner - with someone no matter what their type is, but because of how types are cognitively wired, some pairings are easier to work with than others.

I'm not saying necessarily to only look for one specific type of individual out of the 16, but I think doing so is acceptable. It doesn't make it "highly unlikely" that you would find someone. It is likely that choosing based on your instinct and not taking type into account would lead to an ideal pairing anyway - I don't know how likely it is exactly, but it is going to be the most common pairing.

There are many different kinds of relationships, and many different factors that come into play in determining how beneficial that relationship would be, but when it comes to something like marriage, if your partner is the type with the same middle letters and opposite end letters, then it is just much more likely to work well.
 

phoenix31

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The fact is though, that discussing abstract topics takes more energy from a Sensor than it does for an Intuitive. Sure, there are Sensors who can discuss abstract topics, and Intuitives who can discuss things that are factual/concrete, but it is about how natural those things are for the person.

You can have a positive relationship - I mean relationships in general there, not specifically a romantic/lifelong partner - with someone no matter what their type is, but because of how types are cognitively wired, some pairings are easier to work with than others.

I'm not saying necessarily to only look for one specific type of individual out of the 16, but I think doing so is acceptable. It doesn't make it "highly unlikely" that you would find someone. It is likely that choosing based on your instinct and not taking type into account would lead to an ideal pairing anyway - I don't know how likely it is exactly, but it is going to be the most common pairing.

There are many different kinds of relationships, and many different factors that come into play in determining how beneficial that relationship would be, but when it comes to something like marriage, if your partner is the type with the same middle letters and opposite end letters, then it is just much more likely to work well.

I just posted above and didn't quote you, and it's relevant to what you just said so you can just read the above.
 

Pionart

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And additionally, another aspect of relationships that is important is that you don't have to get all of your needs met from one person. In fact it's putting a ton of pressure on someone to suggest that you should get all of your needs met from him or her. So if there are ways in which you are compatible with someone, and other ways in which you don't share interests or aren't quite as compatible, plenty of couples still have healthy relationships where they find a way to make that work. Extroverts hanging out with friends more often if their spouse doesn't want to go out every night, for example. Or Intuitives who work in an academic field or find people online to have discussions with if their partner is a Sensor who doesn't enjoy tons of abstract conversation. In the same way that maybe couples have hobbies or interests that they don't always share, and will sometimes pursue those things alone in their spare time or with someone else. You don't have to be perfectly, 100% percent compatible with someone to have a healthy relationship.

Of course, even with someone of the most ideal compatibility, there will be needs that go unmet.

However, if they're of the right type, then they will meet your needs moreso than someone of another type - significantly and on average.
 

phoenix31

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Of course, even with someone of the most ideal compatibility, there will be needs that go unmet.

However, if they're of the right type, then they will meet your needs moreso than someone of another type - significantly and on average.

I can easily meet the needs of a Judging type. They need me to be scheduled and have a set plan? Done. They would like me to keep my clutter to a minimum and try to keep my items organized so they're not stressed out? I will oblige. Bam. Need met. Flexibility wins. Done.

Apparently Judging types are "more suited" for me as an INFP, but guess what... I'm much more comfortable around the house with a Perceiver who doesn't give a shit what the schedule is or where I throw my belongings or when I decide to clean up.

So a Judging type is good for me because it's a challenge to be flexible and improve myself, and work toward harmony, and sometimes being with a Judger helps me feel comfortable that I don't have to be in charge of things and they've got it under control, which is a nice feeling. But I'm completely comfortable with a Perceiver type, too, which defies the idea that there is a perfect J type for me.

So I think based on personal experience that this whole idea that there's somehow a perfect type and you should pursue it to the exclusion of other types is pretty silly.
 

phoenix31

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And besides that, as a secondary thought, getting our needs met does not just constitute emotional things or liking someone's approach to life and their thought process. Sometimes our needs are such that we look for someone who has strength in an opposite area where we tend to be weak, because that relieves stress. Or sometimes our needs are to be challenged in something that we aren't good at. So getting our needs met is a combination of a bunch of things.

Someone may say, oh, only Intuitives should date Intuitives because they will understand each other better, when actually, it might be really fantastic for an Intuitive to be with a Sensor who is good at all kinds of things the Intuitive is horrible at. Or for an Introvert to be with an Extrovert who can do all the work of socializing and carrying the burden of conversation if the Introvert doesn't feel in the mood for that. Except that two Extroverts or two Introverts might find that they enjoy the same type better because it suits their energy levels and their desires for how they want to spend time. There's no hard and fast rule because it depends on maturity as well as personal preference.

Just using kind of crude stereotypes, I could say that I might have to decide if I would prefer an Intuitive who would enjoy theorizing and long conversations but is bad at household maintenance stuff, or I might prefer a Sensor who is very handy and good at household stuff but doesn't want to theorize all day long with me. Either way it meets a need. Either way I could end up really enjoying or loving the person I'm with. So I don't see how someone could ever say one is officially better for me than the other, across the board. It's a very individual thing.

Sorry I keep talking about myself when this is someone else's thread. It is just the easiest way for me to express how I understand it, from my own experience.
 

Pionart

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I can easily meet the needs of a Judging type. They need me to be scheduled and have a set plan? Done. They would like me to keep my clutter to a minimum and try to keep my items organized so they're not stressed out? I will oblige. Bam. Need met. Flexibility wins. Done.

Apparently Judging types are "more suited" for me as an INFP, but guess what... I'm much more comfortable around the house with a Perceiver who doesn't give a shit what the schedule is or where I throw my belongings or when I decide to clean up.

So a Judging type is good for me because it's a challenge to be flexible and improve myself, and work toward harmony, and sometimes being with a Judger helps me feel comfortable that I don't have to be in charge of things and they've got it under control, which is a nice feeling. But I'm completely comfortable with a Perceiver type, too, which defies the idea that there is a perfect J type for me.

So I think based on personal experience that this whole idea that there's somehow a perfect type and you should pursue it to the exclusion of other types is pretty silly.

Ok, well I'm a judging type. A schedule? That sounds like Si. A set plan? I have a vision, not a plan. Keeping clutter to a minimum? My room is fairly messy considering I don't have much stuff. When I get it cleaned up it's because my Te+Si are activated. So I don't think you quite understand what it means to be a J.

And besides that, as a secondary thought, getting our needs met does not just constitute emotional things or liking someone's approach to life and their thought process. Sometimes our needs are such that we look for someone who has strength in an opposite area where we tend to be weak, because that relieves stress. Or sometimes our needs are to be challenged in something that we aren't good at. So getting our needs met is a combination of a bunch of things.

Someone may say, oh, only Intuitives should date Intuitives because they will understand each other better, when actually, it might be really fantastic for an Intuitive to be with a Sensor who is good at all kinds of things the Intuitive is horrible at. Or for an Introvert to be with an Extrovert who can do all the work of socializing and carrying the burden of conversation if the Introvert doesn't feel in the mood for that. Except that two Extroverts or two Introverts might find that they enjoy the same type better because it suits their energy levels and their desires for how they want to spend time. There's no hard and fast rule because it depends on maturity as well as personal preference.

Just using kind of crude stereotypes, I could say that I might have to decide if I would prefer an Intuitive who would enjoy theorizing and long conversations but is bad at household maintenance stuff, or I might prefer a Sensor who is very handy and good at household stuff but doesn't want to theorize all day long with me. Either way it meets a need. Either way I could end up really enjoying or loving the person I'm with. So I don't see how someone could ever say one is officially better for me than the other, across the board. It's a very individual thing.

Sorry I keep talking about myself when this is someone else's thread. It is just the easiest way for me to express how I understand it, from my own experience.

There are definitely reasons to be with someone who isn't your ideal match. Like you said, there may be some weakness you want to work on that your ideal match wouldn't cover as well. But these are generally temporary things. In these cases you're looking for someone who meets your current needs, not someone who will be "the one". I'm also saying that it's possible that "the one" could be someone who isn't your ideal match, perhaps because you have a history with that person which has the potential to be lifelong. I'm not speaking for every situation, but noting what the general principles are. "All else being equal".

This is chemistry. You can have a stable molecule where each of the constituent particles would form a stronger bond with some other element, but that particular formation best suits the current environment. But there are still rules about how well different elements will bond with each other.
 

phoenix31

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Ok, well I'm a judging type. A schedule? That sounds like Si. A set plan? I have a vision, not a plan. Keeping clutter to a minimum? My room is fairly messy considering I don't have much stuff. When I get it cleaned up it's because my Te+Si are activated. So I don't think you quite understand what it means to be a J.

There are definitely reasons to be with someone who isn't your ideal match. Like you said, there may be some weakness you want to work on that your ideal match wouldn't cover as well. But these are generally temporary things. In these cases you're looking for someone who meets your current needs, not someone who will be "the one". I'm also saying that it's possible that "the one" could be someone who isn't your ideal match, perhaps because you have a history with that person which has the potential to be lifelong. I'm not speaking for every situation, but noting what the general principles are. "All else being equal".

This is chemistry. You can have a stable molecule where each of the constituent particles would form a stronger bond with some other element, but that particular formation best suits the current environment. But there are still rules about how well different elements will bond with each other.

I am just saying based on all of the Judging types that I know, those tend to be the types of mini-clashes that arise based on our differences of type. Granted, I have no good understanding of cognitive functions at this time. But the very fact that you are saying you are different from the Judgers I know reinforces to me that the extremes vary from person to person, as I have been saying, and I have seen that evidenced just by observing all of the different Judgers in my life and how much they vary in their Judging preference.

All of the things I just mentioned as far as needs are not temporary needs, they are long term needs. Needs about Introversion vs. Extroversion and how we relate to people and how our energy level is--long term needs. Needs for theoretical conversation for Intuitives--long term needs. Needs for someone to take the burden off of you in an area you aren't good at or don't enjoy such as household maintenance or any other number of things--long term need.

I don't think you can say we have an "ideal match" because people's definitions of ideal vary. Some people will say finding your opposite is what you need because opposites attract and and help make up for the other's weaknesses. And other people will say that you need someone who is somewhat similar to you because it's important to have things in common and to agree. So basically if you believe someone else's ideas about an "ideal" type, you're letting them dictate to you what should be important in your life. Why would you want someone else to make that decision for you?

You're referring to this thing called "the one" as if somehow we have soul mates and we're perfectly destined for someone out there and if we just look hard enough we'll find each other and fit like puzzle pieces. I think you can find any number of people who meet any number of your needs, and you will still always have other unmet needs that you will have to meet in other ways with other people. It's up to the individual to decide which needs are most important and which person they enjoy spending time with or love the best, and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters. Not some formula that supposedly tells you which of your needs are paramount and how "the one" is going to solve all of your problems by being your perfect other half.
 

Luminous

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Ok, well I'm a judging type. A schedule? That sounds like Si. A set plan? I have a vision, not a plan. Keeping clutter to a minimum? My room is fairly messy considering I don't have much stuff. When I get it cleaned up it's because my Te+Si are activated.

Now that it's clear you're speaking of cognitive functions, I'm curious. Could you explain more about why you think ENFJ (Fe, Ni, Se, Ti) has the most potential for growth with an INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te)? What about an ENFJ with an ISTP (Ti, Se, Ni, Fe)?
 

Pionart

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Now that it's clear you're speaking of cognitive functions, I'm curious. Could you explain more about why you think ENFJ (Fe, Ni, Se, Ti) has the most potential for growth with an INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te)? What about an ENFJ with an ISTP (Ti, Se, Ni, Fe)?

I could say that "Ti suppresses Fe and Fi inspires it", but that would be begging the question. I could say "I am very sure that I am an INFJ, and I am very sure that I am more attracted to ENFPs than any other type" but you would have to take my word for it.

So ok, here's a theoretical explanation.

Take Te and Ti. Both of these functions work systematically. Te operates the system, Ti fixes the system. Te produces a thought, Ti checks that thoughts are consistent with each other. With just Te, you have something that works in practice but not necessarily in theory, and with Ti you have something that works in theory but not necessarily in practice. Ideally, you want something that works both in theory and in practice. You want to be doing things, but you want to make sure that you're not going to run into problems. Similarly with Fe and Fi. Fe mobilises people, Fi heals people. Fe produces an emotion, Fi helps bring about harmony between the emotions.

So, functions which share the same first letter but opposite second letters will both be working in the same domain, but will provide opposite sides of the process - and both sides are necessary.

We have, consciously, pairs of functions like Te and Fi, because that allows us to be balanced. We can work with systems/logic, and people/emotions. We can act, and we can reflect. But if you have a dominant Ti user with a dominant Fe user, the Ti will want to focus on the systematic aspect of something, and the Fe user will want to focus on the humanistic aspect. These don't work together too well. It's possible to get them to operate in harmony, yes, but it's more natural to have Ti working with Te, Fi working with Fe.

ENFJ's full function order is Fe - Ni - Se - Ti -- Fi - Ne - Si - Te. The gap between Ti and Fi is the crossing over from the conscious mind to the unconscious mind. It so happens that we have a tendency to associate our unconscious with another person. When we cross over to the unconscious, this has a connection to passing the baton to another person, a partner of interaction.

I'm still trying to work out how other relationships work, because I understand that we need all types to play some role in our life for maximum functionality. ISTP could be regarded as the worst pairing for ENFJ because it is the most suppressive to natural functioning, but even it has its time and place. Perhaps the ENFJ wants to work on its weaker conscious functions, to see them reflected in another person. I'm not sure if an ISTP is necessarily the best type for doing that, actually it would be probably better to have an INFJ and ISFP, but there must still be some proper place for it.

I am quite certain however that if you were to have only one other type to compliment your own, you would want to go with what I suggested. It is just the best, energetically speaking.
 
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