ENFP and planning- good lord lol (from an INTJ perspective)

[anticlimatic]

Not planning for certain things is actually a form of planning in a different context, the same way silence in the right places can communicate specific things. ENFPs are far more adept at planning for potential surprises and magical happenstance encounters, which can potentially lead to a far more memorable and exciting evening. Better the possibility of an amazing evening than the certainty of a predictable and mediocre one.

They're not flakes, they're just planning on a level above practical comprehension.

 

[Starry]

Both [7w6 and 7w8] have this enthusiasm and sense of adventure, and both lead forward seeking out that stimulation for what's next. The w6 will do this all while seeing the reality of the situation, that there are limits to be considered...

[MENTION=31850]McBoatFace[/MENTION]


What good comes from seeing the reality of a situation?

 

[five sounds]

Not planning for certain things is actually a form of planning in a different context, the same way silence in the right places can communicate specific things. ENFPs are far more adept at planning for potential surprises and magical happenstance encounters, which can potentially lead to a far more memorable and exciting evening. Better the possibility of an amazing evening than the certainty of a predictable and mediocre one.

They're not flakes, they're just planning on a level above practical comprehension.

Planning for a Level Above Practical Comprehension omg i want this like framed and also in the form as a doctor's note haha

 

[Dreamer]

If you and I had the opportunity to talk sans a technological device, that would be novel indeed. Those devices give us the capability to have conversations like this, with people all over the world that we would otherwise never become aware of, much less have the chance to meet.

That being said, I do not prefer communication via cell phone. Too barebones, limited, and immediate. Email is the way to go. Much easier to express yourself fully and thoughtfully, and the asynchronicity accommodates even the most incompatible and busy of schedules.


And that is the million dollar question. If you can find (and share) the answer, well - you probably won't actually get $1M, but you will earn the appreciation of many of your inquiring type-mates.

To try and answer that million dollar question, I actually heard this from my INTJ friend. She used to be much more rigid and closed off to ideas that didn't make much logical sense. But she loosened up quite a bit once she not only realized, but accepted, that life is mysterious and there are just some things you will never know and never understand.

It's one thing to intellectually understand that, but if you embrace it as part of your perspective on the world, I think that view takes on a whole new meaning to the individual.

I on the other hand, need to understand and fully embrace the reverse, that I am not completely subjected to life's whims and control, but that I carry a level of autonomy as well, and if I so please and desire, I have the ability to see my dreams to fruition, at least, more to the initial vision than otherwise leaving up to "life" to determine. I can say that nowadays I embrace my autonomy and control more, but this was essentially my pitfall growing up.

I think this may be the divide here in perspective. How you see the greater picture of life, and how you see yourself, and how much power/control each entity possess, and how flexible that line between the two actually is. Further, is that line objectively flexible, or is it flexible to the degree the individual is willing? Is that something the individual must battle internally?

 

[Dreamer]

[MENTION=31850]McBoatFace[/MENTION]


What good comes from seeing the reality of a situation?

I feel like the "reality" of a situation is so personal, so I find it difficult to define here on more broad terms. But I'll use myself as an example, sure why not? But what I mean by the reality of the situation and why I see it as a personal experience, is because I see it as this sort of personal "block", like a physical form taken from deep within, a weight so real it feels tangible. This identification, whether that be some insecurity, something abstract or perhaps even literal, "I physically can't do this or that" may seem depressing or a chain holding you down from happiness, but I'd say it feels more like a humbling experience. (For me at least, and with my block) I know I cant do this, or can't do that, I know what I'm good at and what I excel in. I know life is limited and finite, and that any experience I have is best cherished as it won't last forever, no matter how much I may idealize it so.

But what I find to be positive in these seemingly bleak outlooks or "realities" that I have in place for myself, is that I never take any moment or person for granted. This sentiment was only made much more pronounced once I lost my dad. But built in to these stresses, these limitations one could say (I feel the 7w8 may almost turn a blind eye to such things) is akin to a dominant perceiving function followed by its right hand man, an auxiliary judging function. Work the two together well enough, and that perceiving function is now more fine tuned and directed in its goals. There also seems to be this level of honesty and openness I find, where I accept things as they are, and work with them as best I can to squeeze every once of goodness out of my experiences and adventures. And like architecture, I think I actually prefer this mode of thinking, as I find myself to be the most creative when I am thrust upon so many obstacles and struggles to come up against. Sorry, that reference to architecture means that I love the field because it requires real thought to come up with something aesthetically captivating, while also ensuring it is structurally sound, follows codes, follows budget, etc. etc. I don't see architecture as this monolith of some creative expression like many architecture schools would have you believe, but I see it as an opportunity for myself.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

To try and answer that million dollar question, I actually heard this from my INTJ friend. She used to be much more rigid and closed off to ideas that didn't make much logical sense. But she loosened up quite a bit once she not only realized, but accepted, that life is mysterious and there are just some things you will never know and never understand.

It's one thing to intellectually understand that, but if you embrace it as part of your perspective on the world, I think that view takes on a whole new meaning to the individual.

I on the other hand, need to understand and fully embrace the reverse, that I am not completely subjected to life's whims and control, but that I carry a level of autonomy as well, and if I so please and desire, I have the ability to see my dreams to fruition, at least, more to the initial vision than otherwise leaving up to "life" to determine. I can say that nowadays I embrace my autonomy and control more, but this was essentially my pitfall growing up.

I think this may be the divide here in perspective. How you see the greater picture of life, and how you see yourself, and how much power/control each entity possess, and how flexible that line between the two actually is. Further, is that line objectively flexible, or is it flexible to the degree the individual is willing? Is that something the individual must battle internally?

Sounds like the concept of "Locus of control." From Wikipedia:

In personality psychology, locus of control is the degree to which people believe that they have control over the outcome of events in their lives, as opposed to external forces beyond their control. [...] Individuals with a strong internal locus of control believe events in their life derive primarily from their own actions: for example, when receiving exam results, people with an internal locus of control tend to praise or blame themselves and their abilities. People with a strong external locus of control tend to praise or blame external factors such as the teacher or the exam.

From your post, it sounds like your INTJ friend has a strong internal locus of control, whereas you grew up with a strong external locus of control. Spelled out in more detail in Wikipedia again:

--Internals tend to attribute outcomes of events to their own control. People who have internal locus of control believe that the outcomes of their actions are results of their own abilities. Internals believe that their hard work would lead them to obtain positive outcomes. They also believe that every action has its consequence, which makes them accept the fact that things happen and it depends on them if they want to have control over it or not.

--Externals attribute outcomes of events to external circumstances. People with an external locus of control tend to believe that the things which happen in their lives are out of their control, and even that their own actions are a result of external factors, such as fate, luck, the influence of powerful others (such as doctors, the police, or government officials) and/or a belief that the world is too complex for one to predict or successfully control its outcomes. Such people tend to blame others rather than themselves for their lives' outcomes.

When psychologists talk about locus of control, they usually talk in terms of the need to take people with a strong external locus of control (people who feel that they aren't in control of their lives) and re-train them to have a stronger internal locus of control. In other words, traditional psychology assumes that feeling like you're in control of your life is a good thing and leads to more satisfaction in life.

On the other hand, I was reading "13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do," by Amy Morin (Chapter 4 on Locus of Control). Dr. Morin's psychology practice consists mostly of CEOs and top business executives, and she finds herself in the opposite situation: She focuses on how to move these powerful executives away from a strong internal locus of control and toward a more balanced position in the middle. She finds that when people have a very strong internal locus of control, they basically become control freaks and it makes their lives miserable. They feel obliged to monitor and take responsibility for every little detail of everything around them.

So Dr. Morin basically views "Locus of control" as a range running from "Control Freak" on one end (strong Internal Locus) to "Fatalist" on the other (strong External Locus), and she argues for a healthy position in the middle rather than advocating strictly for an Internal Locus of Control as most other psychologists seem to advocate.

And in fact, it seems that your post is making the same argument: That it's better to adopt a middle position rather than going toward either extreme on the "Locus of control" spectrum.

This is all just a tangent, of course. But Dr. Morin's book was a best-seller in 2016, and the chapter on Locus of Control sounds pretty much the same as what you're talking about with respect to your INTJ friend and yourself.

 

[Dreamer]

Sounds like the concept of "Locus of control." From Wikipedia:



From your post, it sounds like your INTJ friend has a strong internal locus of control, whereas you grew up with a strong external locus of control. Spelled out in more detail in Wikipedia again:



When psychologists talk about locus of control, they usually talk in terms of the need to take people with a strong external locus of control (people who feel that they aren't in control of their lives) and re-train them to have a stronger internal locus of control. In other words, traditional psychology assumes that feeling like you're in control of your life is a good thing and leads to more satisfaction in life.

On the other hand, I was reading "13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do," by Amy Morin (Chapter 4 on Locus of Control). Dr. Morin's psychology practice consists mostly of CEOs and top business executives, and she finds herself in the opposite situation: She focuses on how to move these powerful executives away from a strong internal locus of control and toward a more balanced position in the middle. She finds that when people have a very strong internal locus of control, they basically become control freaks and it makes their lives miserable. They feel obliged to monitor and take responsibility for every little detail of everything around them.

So Dr. Morin basically views "Locus of control" as a range running from "Control Freak" on one end (strong Internal Locus) to "Fatalist" on the other (strong External Locus), and she argues for a healthy position in the middle rather than advocating strictly for an Internal Locus of Control as most other psychologists seem to advocate.

And in fact, it seems that your post is making the same argument: That it's better to adopt a middle position rather than going toward either extreme on the "Locus of control" spectrum.

This is all just a tangent, of course. But Dr. Morin's book was a best-seller in 2016, and the chapter on Locus of Control sounds pretty much the same as what you're talking about with respect to your INTJ friend and yourself.

Hmm, can't say that I knew of Dr. Morin or the idea of the Locus of Control. I sort of came to this understanding through my experiences with a mix of free-flow thought if you will. Much of what I say on this forum is brainstorming out loud. But I would agree, that there needs to be a focus down this middle road. To think in extremes, neither end would be productive, whether you see the fault purely in yourself or in others. There's no room for growth when you don't have a basic understanding that not everything is within your control, or that you are subjected to the whims of life. We are certainly autonomous in our actions, and I believe that does instigate change, but if we aren't genuine to our own limitations then who are we really fooling?

I think it's easy to say though, that life is filled with gray areas, as it is. But in a way, I can also see this stance in itself as a sort of un-answer. It's like my favorite response of all time, "I'm voting for the lesser of two evils". So what does that mean? You have no conviction? Are you worried about offending others? But hey, I guess one can also say, that choosing the stance of the gray area, in itself, IS the answer, and IS the conviction. It just depends on the motives behind that answer.

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=31850]McBoatFace[/MENTION]


What good comes from seeing the reality of a situation?

You don't know many STPs then common reoccuring convo...

Enfp: i like when you do xyz.
Me: I know why do you think I do it.
Enfp:

Usually leads to a internal "What does he want?" And give it time leads to "what can I do for you". Alot of good, you just gotta know what your doing.

 

[Starry]

You don't know many STPs then common reoccuring convo...

Enfp: i like when you do xyz.
Me: I know why do you think I do it.
Enfp:

Usually leads to a internal "What does he want?" And give it time leads to "what can I do for you". Alot of good, you just gotta know what your doing.

Wait what? *sets sights on ISTP*

 

[Starry]

I feel like the "reality" of a situation is so personal, so I find it difficult to define here on more broad terms. But I'll use myself as an example, sure why not? But what I mean by the reality of the situation and why I see it as a personal experience, is because I see it as this sort of personal "block", like a physical form taken from deep within, a weight so real it feels tangible. This identification, whether that be some insecurity, something abstract or perhaps even literal, "I physically can't do this or that" may seem depressing or a chain holding you down from happiness, but I'd say it feels more like a humbling experience. (For me at least, and with my block) I know I cant do this, or can't do that, I know what I'm good at and what I excel in. I know life is limited and finite, and that any experience I have is best cherished as it won't last forever, no matter how much I may idealize it so.

But what I find to be positive in these seemingly bleak outlooks or "realities" that I have in place for myself, is that I never take any moment or person for granted. This sentiment was only made much more pronounced once I lost my dad. But built in to these stresses, these limitations one could say (I feel the 7w8 may almost turn a blind eye to such things) is akin to a dominant perceiving function followed by its right hand man, an auxiliary judging function. Work the two together well enough, and that perceiving function is now more fine tuned and directed in its goals. There also seems to be this level of honesty and openness I find, where I accept things as they are, and work with them as best I can to squeeze every once of goodness out of my experiences and adventures. And like architecture, I think I actually prefer this mode of thinking, as I find myself to be the most creative when I am thrust upon so many obstacles and struggles to come up against. Sorry, that reference to architecture means that I love the field because it requires real thought to come up with something aesthetically captivating, while also ensuring it is structurally sound, follows codes, follows budget, etc. etc. I don't see architecture as this monolith of some creative expression like many architecture schools would have you believe, but I see it as an opportunity for myself.

Dreamer this is so beautiful and all of what I needed to read in these moments and be reminded of. What you have written...this is all a living, breathing example of Amor Fati...

.

Amor fati (lit. "love of fate") is a Latin phrase that may be translated as "love of fate" or "love of one's fate". It is used to describe an attitude in which one sees everything that happens in one's life, including suffering and loss, as good or, at the very least, necessary, in that they are among the facts of one's life and existence...

^Ive actually written about this in the 7s thread because this is what we as 7s reject. I'm even currently rejecting the Amor Fati of having to admit to myself that I forgot about Amor Fati...so you can see some of the madness here

This is what Nietzsche claimed was "greatness in a man". And reading the gift you have given me here...I do believe he was right. I really can't thank you enough.

 

[Coriolis]

What good comes from seeing the reality of a situation?

A more accurate knowledge of the facts of the matter, on which to base your decision.

Hmm, can't say that I knew of Dr. Morin or the idea of the Locus of Control. I sort of came to this understanding through my experiences with a mix of free-flow thought if you will. Much of what I say on this forum is brainstorming out loud. But I would agree, that there needs to be a focus down this middle road. To think in extremes, neither end would be productive, whether you see the fault purely in yourself or in others. There's no room for growth when you don't have a basic understanding that not everything is within your control, or that you are subjected to the whims of life. We are certainly autonomous in our actions, and I believe that does instigate change, but if we aren't genuine to our own limitations then who are we really fooling?

I disagree that being in the middle is the best approach. A strong internal locus of control does not deny the existence of external influences. Rather, it focuses on the only thing each of us really can control: ourselves, our actions, and our decisions. You use the word "fault" above, which suggests some element of blame, error, or even wrongdoing. Perhaps that wasn't what you meant. I see it strictly as a set of cause and effect relationships: what is within my control, and what isn't. How can I manipulate the factors within my control to reach my goal? Someone with an external LOC will expect others to flex, accommodate, change, etc. and may indeed blame them for negative outcomes. Someone with an internal LOC is always looking first at what they can do. Even when it involves others, they are focused on the steps they can take. How do they approach the other person in such a way that they will agree, participate, or help?

The one sentiment I cannot abide is "there is nothing I can do". There is almost always something one can do, and until one has taken those steps, it is premature to look to others for the cause of one's lack of success. That statement usually means that the speaker is simply unwilling to do what can be done; unwilling to take the time, put out the effort, bear the risk, etc. Then they do indeed abdicate their choice to the whims of life, or worse, the machinations of others.

 

[Dreamer]

Just thought I'd poke my head back in here after hanging out with an INTJ friend the past couple of days. Apparently during this time, I surprised her with how I can seem to plan and organize things on the fly. Up to this point, she's only seen me as this go-with-the-flow person, that enjoys hanging out with others. I will come in and plan things for the group, if need be, but it's really not an interest of mine, nor default by any means. I will step in however, if someone's plans are so wacky, even I can't make sense of the fruit loops. That's when this INTJ saw me in action. One of my best friends is an ISFJ, and he often does a lot of planning and organizes anything the group of us does. I'm cool with it, I'll tag along, and just enjoy the company of my friends, I really don't care what we do or how. But, there have been times, when my ISFJ friend's plans have made NO sense whatsoever. This entails driving all over the place to points of interest, rather than making some game plan where we aren't forced to waste our time driving everywhere and backtracking hundreds of times, or changing plans last minute to meet me somewhere, after I suggested something, only to find that this new place we met at, was nothing more than just a place to meet. Uhh...we could've "met" at the original place I suggested, and we all agreed on prior. And he can often throw in details and organize things that really, have little to no relation to the main point of the day out, so he ends up spending twice or three times as long to plan, when it literally takes me a few minutes since i just hack all that extraneous stuff away. So, again, it's not my preference nor default to organize and rally the troops, but when half your day is about to be inside a car rather than being at a place and hanging out, I may just step in and offer up some alternative ideas