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INTJ woman + ENFJ man

peter pettishrooms

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Anyone have experienced or witnessed this type of pairing?

Never would have considered dating an Fe-dom because they could theoretically clash with my Fi as I've seen with my own mother (ISFJ), despite my overall healthy relationship with her. But the more I think about it, the more I see some potential with this pairing. I think an ENFJ if they truly cared about the INTJ would tend to support all of INTJ's ambitions and dreams. They would even sacrifice some of their own time and resources helping the INTJ achieve their long-term goals because ultimately they want to see them happy and functioning well.

Sometimes a person with high Fe can appear overbearing and therefore intrusive when it comes to my needs. And I can be a little unappreciative with how Fe chooses to show their support. Again bringing up an example from my ISFJ mother, she can often badger me with irrelevant questions about whether or not I've eaten yet, what I've ate, etc. to show concern if she feels that I have been neglecting my biological needs in favor of completing projects I've become obsessive over. I can become irritable over this and assume that Fe is being nosy and not respecting my privacy.

Love languages I would assume to be another potential problem down the road, but seeing as I am a fairly affectionate INTJ once I've gotten comfortable being intimate with a partner, it wouldn't kill me to show affection regularly.
 

Agent Washington

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That's just how mothers are. Tell her you learnt to make your own pancakes and periodically send her pics of food. She'll live.

Alternatively, actually take good care of your own body, because it's the only one you've got and you'll probably feel it when you get older. (Am I a nosy enough SJ yet?)

If you're actually looking at a real person and not a hypothetical one, then it'd depend on the person, won't it? Of course, gotta specify it's a man and a woman.
 

Tilt

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It really comes down to similar value sets, respect, and understanding needs. Although I am female, my best guy friend is ISTJ and I am dating an INTJ. There are notable differences in how tertiary Fi + dom Fe interact but there is rarely much friction.

1) I tend to verbalize my thoughts and feelings a lot more... basically say what's on my (compliments, observations) and the IXTJs are much more reserved.

2) My focus tends to prioritize the quality of relationships and they are more more task-oriented.

3) I tend to prefer consistent communication but they won't contact unless there is a specific reason.

However, I get along great with both because I allow them some space and autonomy and they are willing and consistent in helping me with reasonable requests.

If the particular ENFJ values "Words of Affirmation", then they might feel unwanted by the average IXTJ.

NOTE: You shouldn't put too much focus on the type though because when I started to do things based on what I thought a type would be like, it caused unnecessary drama. It's better to ask and talk than assume.
 

ceecee

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Anyone have experienced or witnessed this type of pairing?

Never would have considered dating an Fe-dom because they could theoretically clash with my Fi as I've seen with my own mother (ISFJ), despite my overall healthy relationship with her. But the more I think about it, the more I see some potential with this pairing. I think an ENFJ if they truly cared about the INTJ would tend to support all of INTJ's ambitions and dreams. They would even sacrifice some of their own time and resources helping the INTJ achieve their long-term goals because ultimately they want to see them happy and functioning well.

I think generally ENFJ's care about their partners' dreams and ambitions. Sometimes they'll go to the point of their own detriment. It greatly depends on the ENFJ as to how much they'll let resentment build until it's out of control and how much the partner is taking advantage of them.

Sometimes a person with high Fe can appear overbearing and therefore intrusive when it comes to my needs. And I can be a little unappreciative with how Fe chooses to show their support. Again bringing up an example from my ISFJ mother, she can often badger me with irrelevant questions about whether or not I've eaten yet, what I've ate, etc. to show concern if she feels that I have been neglecting my biological needs in favor of completing projects I've become obsessive over. I can become irritable over this and assume that Fe is being nosy and not respecting my privacy.

A person with high Fe can be suffocating for an INTJ. That is true. I don't think this ^^ is type related as much as it's mother related although with an ISFJ, there could be other things going on. It also took me a little time to get familiar with Fe support and showing appreciation. You can't only vocalize it, they need to see action.

Love languages I would assume to be another potential problem down the road, but seeing as I am a fairly affectionate INTJ once I've gotten comfortable being intimate with a partner, it wouldn't kill me to show affection regularly.

My LL's are quality time/words of affirmation. My ENFJ's are physical touch/acts of service. But I like showing affection to the people I'm close to, maybe that's why we don't clash on it, I've always been this way. I've heard many people wonder about this pairing but I think it's really dependent on the INTJ and ENFJ, how mature they are, how healthy they are and how willing they are to work at a relationship. I can see it being nightmarish as easily as I can see it being amazing.
 

Starry

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Anyone have experienced or witnessed this type of pairing?

Oh, do I!

This is the type combination I was raised by (my parents) and having started to second-guess whether or not the above question even applied to me with how mildly it registers with my system when considering the reality of my experience... I hesitated for some time wondering how to proceed and became distracted by a thought to respond entirely in 1930's black & white movie style phrasing... Oh, do I. And how!

Okay, I won't do that but in an effort to make the one and only point I came here to make let me ask... Of my two parents which one...the INTJ or the ENFJ...do you imagine has always been referred to as "The Commander and Chief"?


Never would have considered dating an Fe-dom because they could theoretically clash with my Fi as I've seen with my own mother (ISFJ), despite my overall healthy relationship with her. But the more I think about it, the more I see some potential with this pairing. I think an ENFJ if they truly cared about the INTJ would tend to support all of INTJ's ambitions and dreams. They would even sacrifice some of their own time and resources helping the INTJ achieve their long-term goals because ultimately they want to see them happy and functioning well.


The bolded almost makes me lol. While we are all considering how much affection might be needed... and the everlasting honey moon of love language alignment...

I would like to briefly turn to a little thing called Interaction Styles and how contrary to what appears to be popular belief...the ENFJ doesn't belong to the "Support Staff" group...or the "Sacrifice 4lyfe" group...but rather a group called "In Charge".

There are three ENFJs in my immediate and extended family and I will tell you none of them sound anything like ceecee's husband. My Mom...the Commander and Chief of our family...she sacrifices for no one...and neither do the other two it is just that my Mom is also capable of making it look like she's sacrificing when what she's actually doing is moving everyone around like chess pieces on a chess board.

Whoops...I should add though that my parents do belong together and are still married after years...and my Dad is happy...but my Dad looks past a lot and is constantly encouraging us kids to do the same.
 

Tilt

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Oh, do I!

This is the type combination I was raised by (my parents) and having started to second-guess whether or not the above question even applied to me with how mildly it registers with my system when considering the reality of my experience... I hesitated for some time wondering how to proceed and became distracted by a thought to respond entirely in 1930's black & white movie style phrasing... Oh, do I. And how!

Okay, I won't do that but in an effort to make the one and only point I came here to make let me ask... Of my two parents which one...the INTJ or the ENFJ...do you imagine has always been referred to as "The Commander and Chief"?





The bolded almost makes me lol. While we are all considering how much affection might be needed... and the everlasting honey moon of love language alignment...

I would like to briefly turn to a little thing called Interaction Styles and how contrary to what appears to be popular belief...the ENFJ doesn't belong to the "Support Staff" group...or the "Sacrifice 4lyfe" group...but rather a group called "In Charge".

There are three ENFJs in my immediate and extended family and I will tell you none of them sound anything like ceecee's husband. My Mom...the Commander and Chief of our family...she sacrifices for no one...and neither do the other two it is just that my Mom is also capable of making it look like she's sacrificing when what she's actually doing is moving everyone around like chess pieces on a chess board.

Whoops...I should add though that my parents do belong together and are still married after years...and my Dad is happy...but my Dad looks past a lot and is constantly encouraging us kids to do the same.

Now I finally understand why you see me as ENFJ. hahaha. I try really hard to be chill but I often feel like I am bulldozing the poor INTJ. :peepwall: I sometimes think he might be better off dating an EXXP type.
 

Starry

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Now I finally understand why you see me as ENFJ. hahaha. I try really hard to be chill but I often feel like I am bulldozing the poor INTJ. :peepwall: I sometimes think he might be better off dating an EXXP type.


haha No...no, no,no. Lots of ENFJs use their superpowers for good :wink:


Bulldozing... my Dad isn't going anywhere he doesn't want to go. He will bulldoze right back. The only area that I see causing a problem with my parents...which I know would not be an issue with you because you wouldn't do this or if you did it would be so very, very rare...

What my Mom can't take by force she'll take by manipulation (and vice versa)...and she's damn good. Here's where my father will lose his cool...

Z Buck McFate always explained dominant Ni's response to "being skillfully manipulated"... Like being a blind person and someone moves the furniture around on you. And this is what it at least looks like when I see it occurring with my parents... my Dad totally knows something's fucked-up but he can't pin point what...and so he'll react.

In no way do I worry about my Dad.


*****

I just remembered a funny story though...


A member of my family had some kind of drama/scandal going on with them that my Mom was doing some serious damage control on.

Well, I went over to the house and find my Dad and I'm like "Dad, omg, what's going on with X family member?"

And my Dad stands silently for a while and then says "I have so many lies in my head right now and I don't know which one I'm supposed to tell you." haha
 

ceecee

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Now I finally understand why you see me as ENFJ. hahaha. I try really hard to be chill but I often feel like I am bulldozing the poor INTJ. :peepwall: I sometimes think he might be better off dating an EXXP type.

Keep in mind, we are a whole lot older. My ENFJ is very persuasive and very charming and he did try bulldozing me when we first met. No. Hell no. He still tries (obvious) persuasion, sometimes I don't mind but if he gets pushy..we're done. He's not a regular ENFJ. Not in his job (physics) not in his extroversion (low), not in his overall vibe and he's far more of a disciplinarian as a parent than I am.
 

Starry

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[MENTION=26163]FutureInProgress[/MENTION]

I didn't get back here fast enough. I was trying to figure out how to say something that I still don't really know how to say but...

While I do think my Mom is Kool Aid unhealthy in some-to-many ways...it is difficult for me to proclaim this/the ENFJ interaction style as fundamentally unhealthy in and of itself. I am acquainted with an ENFJ that I see doing all of the same things my Mom does and while I'm not very close with this person and do not see them in a private setting... I only see good coming out of that same force and manipulation if that makes sense. So yah...idk.
 

Tilt

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[MENTION=26163]FutureInProgress[/MENTION]

I didn't get back here fast enough. I was trying to figure out how to say something that I still don't really know how to say but...

While I do think my Mom is Kool Aid unhealthy in some-to-many ways...it is difficult for me to proclaim this/the ENFJ interaction style as fundamentally unhealthy in and of itself. I am acquainted with an ENFJ that I see doing all of the same things my Mom does and while I'm not very close with this person and do not see them in a private setting... I only see good coming out of that same force and manipulation if that makes sense. So yah...idk.

Please be aware that I really did enjoy reading your experiences. I wasn't offended in the slightest. I saw the potential in some of my past interactions with a few people. But I was afraid that I was derailing the thread and turning it negative so I deleted the reply.

There are always going to be potential downsides that are going to lead to tendencies. The In Charge interaction of ENFJs can really have a "I know what's best so do it my way... if not directly, I will figure out another way" vibe to it. It can be useful in many ways but feel suffocating in others. I have had an ENFJ try to do that with me and vice versa. To curb my temptation in doing such, I try to detach. How all of this relates to this thread is that I hope that I can prevent such a dynamic from occurring with the INTJ I am dating.

So, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], I found the humor in what you were saying but, at the same time, I was thinking, "how exhausting that must be for an ENFP..." it sometimes is like the opposite of freedom. My ENFP sister has an interesting dynamic with my ESFJ dad (former military officer) who's highly focused on image and other people's perceptions. So it may have been projection on my part. Don't get me wrong, I do love my dad though... Just a force to be reckoned with.
 

Starry

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Please be aware that I really did enjoy reading your experiences. I wasn't offended in the slightest. I saw the potential in some of my past interactions with a few people. But I was afraid that I was derailing the thread and turning it negative so I deleted the reply.

Okay good yah...I can't speak specifically for the OP but based on my understanding of INTJs in general I would say there's no such thing as "turning it [this thread] negative". I would assume the OP wants the negative or they wouldn't be here. I would assume the OP is in information gathering mode and subsequently it would be nearly impossible to derail this thread as long as we are discussing ENFJs in a way that had a fraction of a chance of affecting an INTJ in a relationship.

I don't know for sure but I would assume the OP got busy...or perhaps my post was in sharp contrast to "expected findings" and they are taking time to shuffle things around to see how what I said fits into their map. Basically, the chances the OP is gone because they felt the thread got too negative or off topic are slim imho.


There are always going to be potential downsides that are going to lead to tendencies. The In Charge interaction of ENFJs can really have a "I know what's best so do it my way... if not directly, I will figure out another way" vibe to it. It can be useful in many ways but feel suffocating in others. I have had an ENFJ try to do that with me and vice versa. To curb my temptation in doing such, I try to detach. How all of this relates to this thread is that I hope that I can prevent such a dynamic from occurring with the INTJ I am dating.

I wonder how realistic it is to expect an ENFJ to abandon the "I know what's best so do it my way..." I mean, I've never met one that truly has you know? And just to be clear I think everyone has "I know what's best" moments... it is just for the ENFJ it is an over-arching belief...it defines them...it is part of their understanding of their place and purpose in life. <-Even in instances where an ENFJ expresses having evolved past this point...I still see this point. And would argue it is easier to deal with "my way or the highway" ENFJs that are upfront about it like my Nona because you are starting from a place that is clean so to speak (nothing's hidden)...and they are open to counsel. My Mom that has the ongoing task of upkeeping and maintaining an image of Sainthood are extremely difficult. In her rational mind she truly believes in human dignity and that all humans have the right to...well, like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness blah, blah, blah. And not only does she believe this in her rational mind her image is 100% invested in being seen by others as this type of person believing these kind of benevolent things. Which makes it so easy for her to hide how she really is and what she truly wants for herself...that being..."my way or the highway."

Moreover...are we talking MLKs "my way"...or Jim Jones'? It is all very confusing to me but what I wanted to be sure and shock into the OP was...

I think an ENFJ if they truly cared about the INTJ would tend to support all of INTJ's ambitions and dreams.

^from what I've seen...regardless of how the ENFJ actually behaves and pays lip-service to when it comes to your ambitions and dreams... *IF* an ENFJ truly cares about you...what they are most likely saying is "abandon your ambitions and dreams and come support mine."




So, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], I found the humor in what you were saying but, at the same time, I was thinking, "how exhausting that must be for an ENFP..." it sometimes is like the opposite of freedom. My ENFP sister has an interesting dynamic with my ESFJ dad (former military officer) who's highly focused on image and other people's perceptions. So it may have been projection on my part. Don't get me wrong, I do love my dad though... Just a force to be reckoned with.

I've noticed a correlation between ENFP e7 children and EFJ e2 primary caregivers. There's something there and someday I will figure it out! :wink:


Also it is important to me to like your message but I cant
 

Tilt

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[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]: Not to sound like a special snowflake but I think I experience the control/manipulation in a different way because I don't really have a connection to 2. It's more like "I know what's best because I have seen a particular pattern and you're screwing with my mojo if I have to endure the same shit yet again. Most of the time I am right about the situation but it's not worth it to me anymore to alienate others over the small things (my 3w2 ENFJ friend even told me I was the most intuitive person he knew even through all the past bickering).

I would say that my main ENFJ-related issue is a somewhat hidden desire to be seen in a certain light... I know it's super obvious on here. Lol. That's 3w4 for you. :)
 

Starry

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[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]: Not to sound like a special snowflake but I think I experience the control/manipulation in a different way because I don't really have a connection to 2. It's more like "I know what's best because I have seen a particular pattern and you're screwing with my mojo if I have to endure the same shit yet again. Most of the time I am right about the situation but it's not worth it to me anymore to alienate others over the small things (my 3w2 ENFJ friend even told me I was the most intuitive person he knew even through all the past bickering).

I would say that my main ENFJ-related issue is a somewhat hidden desire to be seen in a certain light... I know it's super obvious on here. Lol. That's 3w4 for you. :)


I agree with all that you have written above and would like this post as well if I could.


What you wrote is an illustration of what I'm currently failing to find the words to account for in spite of the fact we discuss this very phenomenon here all the time. I'm thinking what it is...is we generally reference Fi here. Saying that Fi can demonstrate care and concern for the group if that is what it has decided to value. Perhaps Fe's "my way" [<-edit this should say "the way"] which in the dom position could probably be simplified to "my way is best for all"...could actually be to be hands-off. "My way" could be not to impose a way.
 

Tilt

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I agree with all that you have written above and would like this post as well if I could.


What you wrote is an illustration of what I'm currently failing to find the words to account for in spite of the fact we discuss this very phenomenon here all the time. I'm thinking what it is...is we generally reference Fi here. Saying that Fi can demonstrate care and concern for the group if that is what it has decided to value. Perhaps Fe's "my way" which in the dom position could probably be simplified to "my way is best for all"...could actually be to be hands-off. "My way" could be not to impose one.

The way I see it is Je accounts for the broad, general concerns and Ji tends to fill in the holes/cracks. Clumsy Je does the broad sweep in the wrong areas or has huge gaping hopes whereas skilled Je knows to where to go to pinpoint the general trends/correct conclusions.

Ji, on the other, is like a detailer brush. Clumsy Ji focuses on the one or two areas that have negligible flaws whereas skilled Ji can pinpoint the important flaws/cracks that affect the overall picture.
 

Starry

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The way I see it is Je accounts for the broad, general concerns and Ji tends to fill in the holes/cracks. Clumsy Je does the broad sweep in the wrong areas or has huge gaping hopes whereas skilled Je knows to where to go to pinpoint the general trends/correct conclusions.

Ji, on the other, is like a detailer brush. Clumsy Ji focuses on the one or two areas that have negligible flaws whereas skilled Ji can pinpoint the important flaws/cracks that affect the overall picture.


Yes.

For me though all my love goes to the extroverted functions. And while I just had a strange vision of a random, fussy INFP speaking of the righteous purity and elevated nature of Fi wtf? <-No. People may argue differently but the extroverted functions are the functions with evolutionary significance imo. There is refinement and synthesis...and then there's immediate action (closest grasp of a situation in the moment) and survival. And I know which of the two has truly taken us this far.
 

Tilt

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Yes.

For me though all my love goes to the extroverted functions. And while I just had a strange vision of a random, fussy INFP speaking of the righteous purity and elevated nature of Fi wtf? <-No. People may argue differently but the extroverted functions are the functions with evolutionary significance imo. There is refinement and synthesis...and then there's immediate action (closest grasp of a situation in the moment) and survival. And I know which of the two has truly taken us this far.

Ha. I agree to an extent. :) I am often envious of Ne doms. I do appreciate my dom Fe because my gosh, when I use it can be quite powerful but it causes an almost near pathological level of impatience within me. I see something that I really want and I just go for it.

For example, I have zero patience for the waiting game in dating/social gatherings so I almost always initiate.
 

Starry

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Ha. I agree to an extent. :) I am often envious of Ne doms. I do appreciate my dom Fe because my gosh, when I use it can be quite powerful but it causes an almost near pathological level of impatience within me. I see something that I really want and I just go for it.

For example, I have zero patience for the waiting game in dating/social gatherings so I almost always initiate.


Envious of Ne doms haha. Yah, I pretty much suspect anyone that had an opportunity to observe me go about my day would at the end of it be like "oh my fucking god I love you >dominant other function<". ((I know you like evolutionary theory and there are a few out there now that suggest ADHD was a highly advantageous mutation which insured the survival of our species. They all basically read as if they are saying "human groups were more likely to survive if they had at least one crazy human in the tribe that did things like accidentally figure out how to make fire merely because they had become obsessed with two sticks..." I'm always like pfft stupid evolutionary scientists you're talking about the emergence of Ne not ADHD :wink:))

Fe and Te often blow me away with how fast you guys can get an accurate read on what has occurred. <-Well, I should say you guys seem to be either "nearly all hits with very few misses" or "a shit load of routine misses with very few accurate hits" there doesn't seem to be very many "semi-decent Fe and Te" users ime. But yah, like people like you I have no idea what you are doing. When you first came back I told you a story of when I was waiting first in line at a stop light with my ISTJ sis in the passenger seat. The light turns green...and I immediately without any pause or delay start to accelerate and proceed into the intersection...to where I then end up slamming on my brakes because the car directly behind me just lays on their horn and won't let up.

My brain exploded with a billion possible reasons for why this asshole behind me was blasting their horn and braked because at least 4.5 million of those billion possibilities were situations where something unexpected and difficult to see was unexpectedly entering the intersection and I was being warned to avoid it. So while I'm like OMfG my sister calmly says..."He's mad at you for not having punched it/gone fast enough when the light turned green." And I'm like "How. Do. You. Know. That?" But I trusted what she was saying and started to proceed again...and then the asshole whipped around me and flashed me some fingers. Had I been distracted and missed the light turning green...and then heard the loudest car horn in the universe...that would really narrow down the possibilities for me. The fact I started going as soon as that light turned...I still don't know how my sister was so confident that the problem was I wasn't going fast enough. I don't know how you guys do that.
 

Tilt

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Envious of Ne doms haha. Yah, I pretty much suspect anyone that had an opportunity to observe me go about my day would at the end of it be like "oh my fucking god I love you >dominant other function<". ((I know you like evolutionary theory and there are a few out there now that suggest ADHD was a highly advantageous mutation which insured the survival of our species. They all basically read as if they are saying "human groups were more likely to survive if they had at least one crazy human in the tribe that did things like accidentally figure out how to make fire merely because they had become obsessed with two sticks..." I'm always like pfft stupid evolutionary scientists you're talking about the emergence of Ne not ADHD :wink:))

Fe and Te often blow me away with how fast you guys can get an accurate read on what has occurred. <-Well, I should say you guys seem to be either "nearly all hits with very few misses" or "a shit load of routine misses with very few accurate hits" there doesn't seem to be very many "semi-decent Fe and Te" users ime. But yah, like people like you I have no idea what you are doing. When you first came back I told you a story of when I was waiting first in line at a stop light with my ISTJ sis in the passenger seat. The light turns green...and I immediately without any pause or delay start to accelerate and proceed into the intersection...to where I then end up slamming on my brakes because the car directly behind me just lays on their horn and won't let up.

My brain exploded with a billion possible reasons for why this asshole behind me was blasting their horn and braked because at least 4.5 million of those billion possibilities were situations where something unexpected and difficult to see was unexpectedly entering the intersection and I was being warned to avoid it. So while I'm like OMfG my sister calmly says..."He's mad at you for not having punched it/gone fast enough when the light turned green." And I'm like "How. Do. You. Know. That?" But I trusted what she was saying and started to proceed again...and then the asshole whipped around me and flashed me some fingers. Had I been distracted and missed the light turning green...and then heard the loudest car horn in the universe...that would really narrow down the possibilities for me. The fact I started going as soon as that light turned...I still don't know how my sister was so confident that the problem was I wasn't going fast enough. I don't know how you guys do that.

I think that I have read that about ADHD lol.

Regarding the accuracy about the Fe. I have these strong gut feelings about people just based on a few interactions, and sometimes it doesn't play out for a couple of years. My ENFJ friend used to tell me that I was just an anxious basketcase because he doesn't see the future implications of others quite like I do. His best Fe trait is that he can "sell the magic" to people.
 

Starry

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I think that I have read that about ADHD lol.

Regarding the accuracy about the Fe. I have these strong gut feelings about people just based on a few interactions, and sometimes it doesn't play out for a couple of years. My ENFJ friend used to tell me that I was just an anxious basketcase because he doesn't see the future implications of others quite like I do. His best Fe trait is that he can "sell the magic" to people.


I have this with people as well. And it sucks ass when you absolutely know a person is bad-news-to-downright-dangerous but likewise know no one will be able to see it until it is too late. Well, it might only suck ass for the insanely protective idk. I am actually curious to know how you handle these things if you don't mind me asking. I'm at the point today where I'm starting off new relationships like this: If I ever tell you to avoid someone for your own well being or safety please, please, please take heed of what I say.

I don't navigate the physical environment all that well though and am also curious to hear of the ENFJ experience with the same if you have a moment...that would be so interesting to me.
 
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