Deferring to others

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yes, if I think someone is of equal or greater knowledge and competence than myself, or has better skill than myself at something.

Regarding functions, I've taken to deferring to others if something is political, and have kind of grown out of playing devil's advocate, or trying to come up with some unique position that sets me apart from the pack. I think about group dynamics and how that interacts with politics, and I've realized just how messy that can get. So, I let types that are more passionate take the lead on these.

 

[Thalassa]

Of course it depends on what it is. I know I have weaknesses here, here, and there and there, so I defer in those situations. I don't think it's wise to always defer to "authority" though depending on the subject and information. Like if one doctor says something, it's extremely important to get a second opinion. A lot of ignorance is perpetrated not just by individuals who don't defer to people with more skill or expertise in that area....but also by the opposite, by people who defer TOO MUCH who don't question larger social systems, who are actually deferring to tradition more so than science. There are a lot of people who are still scared of vegan diets, even though the United Nations, WHO, multiple physicians and nutritionists, as well as healthy happy human beings who are now as old as 40s who have been vegan since childhood or in utero, that can testify to their stupidity. That's more about tradition than science. So is automatically thinking popping a pill is better than trying a simpler natural solution. I see a lot of unnecessary deference to tradition in these areas, while there are other groups shocking in their utterly emotional anti-establishment beliefs. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Follow your heart but take your brain with you.

Something that I strive for with maturity is balance and multiple perspectives. There's a time and a place for deference, and a time for not deferring, and knowing the difference doesn't always have to be a stroke of luck, but a matter of informing yourself as much as possible. Turning off the television years ago probably saved my life.

 

[Ursa]

That's interesting...I have that with people who...vibe out that they have more important things to do or don't want to be here, or cannot stand me asking questions that makes them repeat themselves. The annoyance that they're radiating becomes soooo loud and so obnoxious that it literally distracts me and drowns out their words. I become scared of asking questions and I just nod that I've understood to get it over with and get away from them. And...most of the time I get away with it because Ne allows me to skip the details, let someone ramble on and just pick up the highlights and fill in the blanks myself - as long as the topic is intuitive to me (I cannot do this with..well, math, for instance, unfortunately).

Ironically, my own partner is like this. He hates repetition, explaining things to people and as an Ni-dom he just assumes people will *get* it. Our fights these days are about him changing the computer system he insisted on having on the Tv to the point where that thing now has like 75 different bells and whistles. And then he doesn't even tell me about it. I could care less about technology as it is, but he just assumes that I'll figure it out. Then, when I run into trouble and get pissed at him and the thing itself, he'll explain to me with a tone of 'how do you not know this???' where I went wrong that time. So, he never takes the time to fully walk me through it, show me how its set up and why and how to navigate the different loops. When he does show me a piece, I'm usually already so pissed that I could care less at that point

He had the same problem at work where he, when he was training personnel for his company, he found himself non-stop correcting people's mistakes and re-explaining things. He has a lot of patience for a lot of things but this just...aint one of em. It drives him absolutely insane.

While I can sympathise with that, I'm sick and tired of being considered a) an Ni-dom who'll just get this shit, coz he does, b) considered psychic because I don't even get to know how he set up the system so there *is* nothing to intuit in the first place and c) a techno geek who is supposed to be interested in this stuff. So I've told him from now on - if you're planning on making changes to that idiotic piece of *****, think LOOOONG and HARD before you do, because you WILL have to go through this with me each time. And if you don't teach me properly, I WILL make your life a LIVING HELL. EVERY GODDAMN TIME.


And that is a solid promise

I've taught my mom, who is an SJ and...she has that same fear as I do - she hates feeling like she has no control and is somehow stupid for not knowing this stuff - and I've also noticed that we come to things from opposite ways. I've had to revise my own teaching style to suit her needs. I usually start with the oversight (because that's what i need to intuit the rest), on an abstract level and then come down to a concrete level by giving examples of the abstract principles. With her, I've noticed, I need to start with what is *right* in front of her and make a linear line, looking at *all* the details before we move on to the next topic, in order to then connect it to the next piece. It was mildly disorienting for me at first but then I caught on - it's the way most schools (at least here) also structure their lesson plans (which was one of the reasons I never got the cohesion and the oversight I needed and fell asleep in class, actually - it's so weird how that is so different for different people).

It's really too bad that some people are so inconsiderate, but in my own experience, people who attempt to quash questions or those who believe they must repeat themselves are usually poor teachers. Why would someone want to repeat themselves when their explanation didn't work once already? They should explain in another way! I think sometimes they are simply incapable because they actually don't possess the details and evidence to be able to withstand questions.

Funny that you mentioned an Ni-dom because those types were in mind when I wrote my post! I can't stand their abstract statements. I actually don't understand how they can be so certain in their explanations and conclusions while they are at the same time so oblivious to, and uncomfortable with, external details. Wouldn't they need those to substantiate their claims or to create a how-to explanation?!

 

[Amargith]

It's really too bad that some people are so inconsiderate, but in my own experience, people who attempt to quash questions or those who believe they must repeat themselves are usually poor teachers. Why would someone want to repeat themselves when their explanation didn't work once already? They should explain in another way! I think sometimes they are simply incapable because they actually don't possess the details and evidence to be able to withstand questions.

Funny that you mentioned an Ni-dom because those types were in mind when I wrote my post! I can't stand their abstract statements. I actually don't understand how they can be so certain in their explanations and conclusions while they are at the same time so oblivious to, and uncomfortable with, external details. Wouldn't they need those to substantiate their claims or to create a how-to explanation?!

Coz that's not how they work - and they forget that that's not how others work, so then they have to put *work* into actually finding a way to communicate this information - something they're ironically worse at and therefore costs a lot more effort than understanding the information in the first place, so they don't get why they even should - you should just be able to pick it up as they did! At least...that's the reaction of those that cannot step out of their own perspective

And depending on how they feel about working with other people, they can be great teachers with a great deal of patience or the exact opposite. Mine, for instance, can get along with people just fine, but he really just...hates having to explain and repeat information and repackage it, till they get it. He just doesn't gain enjoyment from watching someone learn something new and watching them come into their own. It's not what he does. And it's something that you see especially with those that have...a traditionally higher IQ (but not necessarily a high EQ), I've found. Since they naturally grasp things fasters, they cannot somehow relate to other people needing more steps than just looking at the information to understand it. Or, for that matter, that some people learn better when someone explains information to them (that's me!) because they're people oriented and not fact-oriented or system-oriented. That makes it not only hard to empathise, it also makes it hard to figure out on the spot how to...see what exactly they need to grasp the information because they lack that experience - which makes it a frustration situation for them to be in.

Meanwhile, mine excels at building systems (he's a programmer) for laymen. And he'll go through extraordinary lengths to get the feedback of people who don't get how computer systems work (and get annoyed at their ineffectiveness for just a moment), look at the computer system based on their feedback, to walk in their shoes and then reprogram it so that it becomes intuitively easy to use - but see, that's the thing he loves to do and is great at without having to work directly with people and having to explain shit to them. He leaves that to others

I think the main factor, though, is that someone understands that others work in a different way that they do, doesn't look down on that different way of working AND is willing to adjust their teaching style to optimise their learning process or give those people the time they need to absorb the info in their style. That's just key. And I do think that that feeling of satisfaction when you see someone bloom and grasp the stuff you're teaching, is an important motivator for this. Otherwise, you just frustrated yourself and your student, while making them feel stupid, reducing their ability/willingness to absorb information even further (especially for people like me, it just gridlocks me coz now I'm emotionally managing you instead of learning what Im supposed to learn) and making it into a vicious cycle

 

[Flâneuse]

Do you defer to others in certain situations? More specifically - do you recognise when a situation might call for your least favourite function (or function combo) and how do you go about dealing with that situation?

If there is already at least one other person dealing with the situation, I usually defer too often, due to a lack of confidence in my abilities, shyness, and laziness, in varying proportions. I do genuinely suck at a lot of things (as far as functions, anything requiring well-developed Ti, Te, and to a lesser extent Fe), and standing back and letting others handle situations that involve competence at those skills has been for the best, but I'm sure there were other situations involving other skills where I underestimated how much I could have contributed. It's this pesky e9/e6-disintegration thing where there's a part of me that feels like my voice and actions are somehow less 'valid' than those of others -- even when I'm feeling mostly confident and like I know exactly what actions to take, it's still there, muffled but still audibly undermining my conviction. (Rational self-questioning is important to avoiding overconfidence and making better decisions, but this inner criticism I'm talking about is irrational and sometimes keeps me from doing what I need to.) It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of incompetence. Also, I sometimes avoid taking initiative simply because things can always go wrong and I don't want the blame and the feeling of responsibility to be on my shoulders - if it's other people's decisions that lead to the unwanted outcome, I can slide by with less severe consequences while convincing myself it wasn't my fault because I wasn't the active decision-maker. Of course, this is selfish and irresponsible; if things go wrong because I didn't help or speak up I'm responsible too.

Oddly, if I am currently the only one dealing with a situation (especially tasks that were specifically given to me), I tend to be reluctant to ask for help (and sometimes even to let anyone help me). I don't have to deal with the obstacle of shyness, and it feels like my chance to prove to myself that I have competence at some things and make that constant inner voice of self-doubt shut the hell up. However, if the situation requires skills I know I lack and the outcome is important, I'll usually swallow my pride and ask for the help of a person whose strengths are my weaknesses. If the situation requires skills I lack but the outcome isn't that important and I can afford to risk screwing up, I'll take it as an opportunity to strengthen some of my weaker skills and continue trying to work through it on my own.

I just realized that what I've written so far is probably a lot less typology-focused than what the OP is looking for, so I'll add that some of my weaknesses that come from underdeveloped Thinking functions involve detailed planning and organizing, leadership, logistics, and understanding the workings of a complex system in a very detailed way. I'm occasionally sensitive about those weaknesses, but I don't have delusions that I'm good at those things and can hand them over to others with only a little sting to my ego (rather than a big blow). I don't think I'm able to defer to anyone when it comes to Fi alone, but when it comes to Ne-in-service-of-Fi skills (empathizing with other individuals, understanding another's perspective and what led them there, reading deeper meanings or multiple possibilities of meaning of a situation or, in an academic setting, a text) I expect myself to have an above-average but not exceptional level of perceptiveness and creativity. When a level of insight and creativity (of an NF variety) above that level is needed, I have no problem deferring to others and even enjoy learning from them and seeing new ideas and solutions that I wouldn't have thought of myself. When it comes to anything that's at or below what I consider "my level", I really want to use my own ideas to deal with the situation, though I acknowledge when someone else's ideas are better than mine and reluctantly defer; it's also common for me to defer anyway out of passivity and underlying self-doubt, as I mentioned in the first paragraph. (For this reason, if I feel I can do an academic project well on my own, I prefer to work alone instead of in a group. I don't want my voice to be drowned out and I want the ideas to be MINE, damn it!) When I feel like I should be able to grasp something with Fi+Ne but struggle to, I get very hard on myself and defensive about my competence at the things I expected myself to be good at. I have trouble deferring to others in these situations, and don't even like others to notice I'm struggling.

tl;dr version: I rightly defer to others in important situations that require skills I lack, and I sometimes wrongly defer out of passivity to more domineering people even when I could have competently dealt with something. I try to practice my weaker skills in situations where I can afford to screw up, and I prefer to work alone in situations where I have a good grasp of things.