INTJ and INFP Relationships

[Patrick]

And as I get older, I find a lot of enjoyment in sharpening those functions. I take a lot of pride in getting those functions up and running and being a good Leader. ...

Any couples dance is good. But Swing is fast and spinning (good for Se) and has lots of programmed steps to learn (good for Si); you just string them together into longer routines (Te planning).

My wife put you up to posting that, didn't she?


Thanks. For some reason, though, I don't take pride in strengthening weak functions; on the contrary, I find it makes me more and more uncomfortable--pushes me into places I just don't want to go. (I just took a DISC test the other day, and I scored 99 in Cautious and about 89 in Stable, but only about 14 in Decisive and 21 in Interactive. I do not do well being the leader, taking the initiative, or pulling myself up by my bootstraps.)

All my life I've said that there are two jobs/careers I'd never want to have: farming and sales/marketing. So of course my wife gets big into gardening and starts her own business. Like it or not, if I want to be with her and be helpful, I end up doing what seems to me like farming and sales/marketing.

I've also said that there's one thing I'd never want to do for recreation: dancing. I don't see the point in it, don't much like to watch others doing it, and don't have any interest in it. The closest I come is standing up and swaying to the music at a rock concert. The few times I've actually been on a dance floor (many years ago), I was either embarrassed or drunk or both.

But my wife would like to take up dancing. She has brought it up a number of times, and once I went so far as to take her to an introductory Arthur Murray class. It went badly, though. For me it was a romantic thing, but to her it was more a way to just move and have fun. I was also clumsy; I heard the music differently than others, i guess, and I couldn't identify the strong beat I was supposed to be moving to.

We also took a tai chi class together a couple times. That was better, but I didn't have the patience for it and couldn't stick with it.

My favorite recreational activities would be long, slow, repetitious things like canoeing/kayaking, bicycling, hiking, or cross-country skiing. We've done all those things together at times, but she doesn't love them, and we're both such homebodies that we rarely seem to get around to such activities anyhow.

 

[Coriolis]

Yes, we're both Responders (an interaction-style term), and that can be a big problem. Neither of us wants to take the initiative, so we wait for each other, and long periods of time go by without anything ever happening. One of us has to go "out of character" and force an issue before action can take place.

She's got the Directing style (another interaction-style term), so she ends up being the one to break down and take the initiative most of the time. But she resents it because she believes in traditional gender roles: I'm the guy, so I ought to be the one to make the first move. Unfortunately, I often just can't do it. Worse, I sometimes react negatively to her initiating: her Directing style sounds bossy to me, and I resent it, wishing she'd take a softer approach.

Interesting. I am surprised that an INTJ would favor traditional gender roles vs. going her own way, even if that ends up looking like a traditional role in the end. For instance, I prefer men make the first move as well, but because I am a fairly strong introvert, not because I am female. I prefer female friends take the initiative as well. My longtime SO is an INTP so there is much of the same dynamic. I end up taking the initative on many things, and sometimes resent that I have to do it so much. On the other hand, I can plan or organize things in a heartbeat, so I recognize the efficiency of it. If it is one way for each of us to do what we do best in the relationship, then so be it.

The Thinking-vs-Feeling difference is another big factor. She regularly accuses me of not listening or not being able to follow instructions, and I regularly accuse her of being inconsiderate or uncooperative. When we were first married, I believed that rational T part of her was just a sham and that underneath she was of course a warm F-type person. I think I spent a few years expecting and assuming that she'd change (i.e., become more like me); and then I read Keirsey's book Please Understand Me II and learned that it wasn't gonna happen.

Nope. We are not warm F-types underneath it all just because we are women. T women are still T, and I find that says far more about our motivations and thought processes than our gender does.

Interesting also about the dancing and gardening. I have tried to get my SO to do dancing lessons, simply as a physical activity we can do together. No dice. But he is the big gardener in the relationship. I enjoy it, too, but am usually too busy doing other things. Now as for sales and marketing, neither of us will touch that with the proverbial ten-foot pole.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

My wife put you up to posting that, didn't she?


Thanks. For some reason, though, I don't take pride in strengthening weak functions; on the contrary, I find it makes me more and more uncomfortable--pushes me into places I just don't want to go. (I just took a DISC test the other day, and I scored 99 in Cautious and about 89 in Stable, but only about 14 in Decisive and 21 in Interactive. I do not do well being the leader, taking the initiative, or pulling myself up by my bootstraps.)

All my life I've said that there are two jobs/careers I'd never want to have: farming and sales/marketing. So of course my wife gets big into gardening and starts her own business. Like it or not, if I want to be with her and be helpful, I end up doing what seems to me like farming and sales/marketing.

I've also said that there's one thing I'd never want to do for recreation: dancing. I don't see the point in it, don't much like to watch others doing it, and don't have any interest in it. The closest I come is standing up and swaying to the music at a rock concert. The few times I've actually been on a dance floor (many years ago), I was either embarrassed or drunk or both.

But my wife would like to take up dancing. She has brought it up a number of times, and once I went so far as to take her to an introductory Arthur Murray class. It went badly, though. For me it was a romantic thing, but to her it was more a way to just move and have fun. I was also clumsy; I heard the music differently than others, i guess, and I couldn't identify the strong beat I was supposed to be moving to.

We also took a tai chi class together a couple times. That was better, but I didn't have the patience for it and couldn't stick with it.

My favorite recreational activities would be long, slow, repetitious things like canoeing/kayaking, bicycling, hiking, or cross-country skiing. We've done all those things together at times, but she doesn't love them, and we're both such homebodies that we rarely seem to get around to such activities anyhow.

I can sympathize with a lot of what you said. I've never liked free-form dancing, such as getting up and bopping in place at a club or concert. That sort of dancing is too Se for me. I just think it's boring, because I'm not musical enough or coordinated enough to just "move with the music."

On the other hand, I have found that I like "couples dancing" with programmed dance steps. It's more cerebral (Si), and I can tackle it almost as a math problem. I can sit down, work out counts for where my feet and hands should be for each beat, and then practice it till I can do it at full speed to the music. Si is a weak function for me, so it doesn't come easy or natural. I really have to study the steps and crack them like a code. But like I said, I've come to enjoy working with Si and Te as a personal challenge, and "couples dancing" feeds into that.

In fact, once my Si is strong enough with a step or a dance, I can even start tapping into some Se. I hit a point where I can start feeling the kinetics of the dance and can tell from "feel" alone what I should be doing with that dance. So there's always new stuff going on with each dance; if I keep at it, it stays fresh.

Also, you mention beat: With some dances the beat can be difficult to find. A lot of the ballroom dances are that way for beginners. And the beat can be difficult to find in Salsa even for experienced dancers. But with something like Swing, the beat is way up front and easy to find. It's like square dancing--it's impossible to miss the beat.

But I'll stop pitching the idea. If it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't work for you. Maybe in another 10 years or whatever. They say that all personality types start exploring their lower functions as they get older. I've known a good number of older INFPs (I'm retired), and they all get tired of living in their heads all the time and eventually want to come out and partake of the world via Si and Te. So maybe it's something you can reconsider at another phase in life.

 

[Patrick]

I am surprised that an INTJ would favor traditional gender roles vs. going her own way, even if that ends up looking like a traditional role in the end. For instance, I prefer men make the first move as well, but because I am a fairly strong introvert, not because I am female. I prefer female friends take the initiative as well.

I'm sure that's true of my wife too. She certainly does not "favor traditional gender roles" in a general sense; she's quite independent, and she'd probably agree with Gustav Mahler's statement that "tradition is merely an excuse for slovenliness." She has a hard time dealing with SJs and their conventional ways.

But at the same time, she has often said, "You're the guy; you should take the initiative." And she likes it when I open doors for her. And when we go for a drive, I'm automatically the driver, and she's the navigator (or "navigatrix," as she jokingly says sometimes).

But yeah, like you, she wishes her female friends would take the initiative more often. She has lost friends over that issue. "I'm always the one who has to call them," she says. "If they don't take the initiative and call me, they must not really want to be around me."

Another difficult thing I've had to adjust to is "task mode." Yesterday morning was a pretty typical example (though it never happened quite this way before): I was about to leave for work, so I walked into the room where she was shuffling papers and preparing for her own workday, and I said, "Time for me to go. Can I get a kiss good-bye?" (I never used to ask; that was a request of hers that I try to comply with.) She muttered something and raised her face but turned so that I could only kiss her cheek. I "hmphed" in mild disappointment, and she said, "I'm in task mode." I said, "Task mode sucks." She said, "You suck." "What?" I exclaimed. She made another defensive remark as I headed out the door. There was no real animosity in any of this; we've been together long enough that we just laugh off things like this or quickly forget about them. But she meant that what she calls "task mode" (focusing her mind on business at hand and therefore not being open to an emotional exchange or any other nonsense) is a part of who she is, and it's insulting for me to say, "Task mode sucks." But of course I meant that it sucks from my POV because it puts distance between us when I want to be close to her.

This morning she was in task mode again, as she had to pack the car for a business trip. So I just went along with it until everything was ready and she was about to leave. Then I caught her just before she got into the car and got a proper hug and kiss. By that point, she was open to it. A minute or two before, and she'd probably have pushed me out of the way.

My SJ mother and sister and a close NF (female) friend could never understand my wife's "abrasiveness." They all wondered why in the world I'd marry someone like her. But they don't get to see the other side of her. Deep down she's sensitive and emotional and deeply caring, with an almost childlike enthusiasm that can be contagious. And closer to the surface, she's capable of quickly and efficiently taking care of practical matters that I'd worry over and have a hard time with.

 

[chubber]

dear INTJ, escape while you can. you don't want to end up like this:

Yes I know, it doesnt' explain much

Yes yes INTJ,

you know you need to do this once in a while, they just shut you down every damn time

you know you like it, keep that hulk at bay

 

[OrangeAppled]

My wife put you up to posting that, didn't she?


Thanks. For some reason, though, I don't take pride in strengthening weak functions; on the contrary, I find it makes me more and more uncomfortable--pushes me into places I just don't want to go. (I just took a DISC test the other day, and I scored 99 in Cautious and about 89 in Stable, but only about 14 in Decisive and 21 in Interactive. I do not do well being the leader, taking the initiative, or pulling myself up by my bootstraps.)

All my life I've said that there are two jobs/careers I'd never want to have: farming and sales/marketing. So of course my wife gets big into gardening and starts her own business. Like it or not, if I want to be with her and be helpful, I end up doing what seems to me like farming and sales/marketing.

I've also said that there's one thing I'd never want to do for recreation: dancing. I don't see the point in it, don't much like to watch others doing it, and don't have any interest in it. The closest I come is standing up and swaying to the music at a rock concert. The few times I've actually been on a dance floor (many years ago), I was either embarrassed or drunk or both.

But my wife would like to take up dancing. She has brought it up a number of times, and once I went so far as to take her to an introductory Arthur Murray class. It went badly, though. For me it was a romantic thing, but to her it was more a way to just move and have fun. I was also clumsy; I heard the music differently than others, i guess, and I couldn't identify the strong beat I was supposed to be moving to.

We also took a tai chi class together a couple times. That was better, but I didn't have the patience for it and couldn't stick with it.

My favorite recreational activities would be long, slow, repetitious things like canoeing/kayaking, bicycling, hiking, or cross-country skiing. We've done all those things together at times, but she doesn't love them, and we're both such homebodies that we rarely seem to get around to such activities anyhow.

If one of your biggest dilemmas is that she wants to dance and you want to kayak, then I think you're doing pretty well .

I think the Se/Si crap in regards to hobbies is pretty much bollocks. I think the letter dichotomies may have a better predicting quality here, but even then, a lot of it is simply "not type related" because people can have certain interests for so many different reasons.

The biggest conflict with TJs and FPs (or even NPs), IMO, is desire for structure vs desire for flexibility and the manner of accomplishing stuff. The FP will be painted as the villain in this area, meaning they are more likely to be steamrolled. They may prioritize differently, with an NP putting the most interesting emerging potential up first and the TJ ordering things to be accomplished in a more linear fashion, regardless of what is most fascinating. But NPs do this because Ne uses a LOT of energy, and it is not easily summoned by will, so you have to work with creative bursts when they come. Then there is inevitable burn-out. Then, with Fi, things have to be meaningful for you to want to apply your energy, and if not, then you may only apply just enough Ne to find a clever workaround. This can look to TJs like you're just messing around and doing a half-ass job at the boring stuff. I would expect an NTJ to at least appreciate the cleverness of Ne and the ability to pull of some pretty quality stuff with ingenuity. I know that many TJs value "hard work" in terms of task accomplishment over ingenuity, but ingenuity is often hard mental work. As an NP, you feel the mental exhaustion. It's like you're running around in your brain at cheetah speeds trying to catch and juggle bubbles. But then somehow, that does become something of value. It's pretty much a "method to the madness" situation, and just as NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.

 

[chubber]

If one of your biggest dilemmas is that she wants to dance and you want to kayak, then I think you're doing pretty well .

I think the Se/Si crap in regards to hobbies is pretty much bollocks. I think the letter dichotomies may have a better predicting quality here, but even then, a lot of it is simply "not type related" because people can have certain interests for so many different reasons.

The biggest conflict with TJs and FPs (or even NPs), IMO, is desire for structure vs desire for flexibility and the manner of accomplishing stuff. The FP will be painted as the villain in this area, meaning they are more likely to be steamrolled. They may prioritize differently, with an NP putting the most interesting emerging potential up first and the TJ ordering things to be accomplished in a more linear fashion, regardless of what is most fascinating. But NPs do this because Ne uses a LOT of energy, and it is not easily summoned by will, so you have to work with creative bursts when they come. Then there is inevitable burn-out. Then, with Fi, things have to be meaningful for you to want to apply your energy, and if not, then you may only apply just enough Ne to find a clever workaround. This can look to TJs like you're just messing around and doing a half-ass job at the boring stuff. I would expect an NTJ to at least appreciate the cleverness of Ne and the ability to pull of some pretty quality stuff with ingenuity. I know that many TJs value "hard work" in terms of task accomplishment over ingenuity, but ingenuity is often hard mental work. As an NP, you feel the mental exhaustion. It's like you're running around in your brain at cheetah speeds trying to catch and juggle bubbles. But then somehow, that does become something of value. It's pretty much a "method to the madness" situation, and just as NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.

That is some horse apples there. you need to clarify your structure vs flexibility, people could be comparing apples with oranges here.

Ne vs Ni, is a constant tug of war, it's not appreciating la di da da, fluffy nonsense BS. Ne will grab Ni's attention, because Ni wants take it further, Ne doesn't want that. That's where things start to get interesting, but then your Ne burns out. Awwwe then getting them to go further, makes the NTJ frustrated because it's like beating a dead horse.

If the INFP can drink some fruity smoothies and get some energy, maybe there can be some afterwards.

 

[Patrick]

Thanks for the post. It'll be worth a reread. For now, this incidental remark made my ears perk up:

NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up ...

There's a phenomenon I've regularly experienced (being married to an INTJ). And apparently she has run into it with many people in her life. She resents that her father used to send her to the dictionary or encyclopedia instead of simply acknowledging her when she said something brilliant. As a project manager, she has difficulty with people (especially those with a Sensing preference, she says) who demand a lot of hard data and step-by-step procedures. And at home, I pretty frequently wonder how I'm supposed to just accept what she says with a tone of authority, when it clashes with my previous knowledge or what I'd expect to be true. But if I show any hesitance or disbelief, she's likely to become perturbed and say, "Go do your own research, then. But I wish you'd just listen to me sometimes instead of doubting everything I say."

 

[grey_beard]

Thanks for the post. It'll be worth a reread. For now, this incidental remark made my ears perk up:



There's a phenomenon I've regularly experienced (being married to an INTJ). And apparently she has run into it with many people in her life. She resents that her father used to send her to the dictionary or encyclopedia instead of simply acknowledging her when she said something brilliant. As a project manager, she has difficulty with people (especially those with a Sensing preference, she says) who demand a lot of hard data and step-by-step procedures. And at home, I pretty frequently wonder how I'm supposed to just accept what she says with a tone of authority, when it clashes with my previous knowledge or what I'd expect to be true. But if I show any hesitance or disbelief, she's likely to become perturbed and say, "Go do your own research, then. But I wish you'd just listen to me sometimes instead of doubting everything I say."

It's a mixed bag. I'm an INTJ, and I understand the (seemingly) unwarranted confidence; it takes those around me some time to realize that I actually *do* know what I'm talking about.
On the other hand, I have blood relatives who are INTJs, but who are like Fibber McGee: whatever comes into their head, they will spout off about it, and (very uncharacteristic for an INTJ) they will hold to their original point of view even when quoted chapter-and-verse explicitly, from reputable sources, which contradict them.

Methinks it is related to the maturity level and / or insecurity of the INTJ in question.
(...ouch! stop *kicking* me under the table. It's also their intellectual pride (grumbling at being caught out.))

 

[grey_beard]

If one of your biggest dilemmas is that she wants to dance and you want to kayak, then I think you're doing pretty well .

I think the Se/Si crap in regards to hobbies is pretty much bollocks. I think the letter dichotomies may have a better predicting quality here, but even then, a lot of it is simply "not type related" because people can have certain interests for so many different reasons.

The biggest conflict with TJs and FPs (or even NPs), IMO, is desire for structure vs desire for flexibility and the manner of accomplishing stuff. The FP will be painted as the villain in this area, meaning they are more likely to be steamrolled. They may prioritize differently, with an NP putting the most interesting emerging potential up first and the TJ ordering things to be accomplished in a more linear fashion, regardless of what is most fascinating. But NPs do this because Ne uses a LOT of energy, and it is not easily summoned by will, so you have to work with creative bursts when they come. Then there is inevitable burn-out. Then, with Fi, things have to be meaningful for you to want to apply your energy, and if not, then you may only apply just enough Ne to find a clever workaround. This can look to TJs like you're just messing around and doing a half-ass job at the boring stuff. I would expect an NTJ to at least appreciate the cleverness of Ne and the ability to pull of some pretty quality stuff with ingenuity. I know that many TJs value "hard work" in terms of task accomplishment over ingenuity, but ingenuity is often hard mental work. As an NP, you feel the mental exhaustion. It's like you're running around in your brain at cheetah speeds trying to catch and juggle bubbles. But then somehow, that does become something of value. It's pretty much a "method to the madness" situation, and just as NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION], [MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION] --
How much do you think that's an NF thing and how much a 4 thing? I'm 5w4 and I find I can muster very little energy or enthusiasm for mowing the grass or changing the cat's litter box.
Mundane *numerical* tasks such as bills or recording payments, investments, and the like, I do *to relax*. Or grocery shopping, which takes creativity and optimization.
Any insights from the NF side of the fence?

 

[INTP]

NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.

Yea i hate this. I always tell my INTJ friend when he makes some argument that goes against mine without being able to give any rationale to back it up, that "your argument means nothing unless you can explain it properly and give reasons or some logic to back it up". Usually its the case that i can see 10 reasons why his argument is invalid and can clearly see why he made that sort of mistake, but because he doesent see the logic behind his own argument, but more like just feels its the right thing, its nearly impossible to turn his head around and make him change his stance on the subject, no matter how well i explain all the reasons he is wrong. I think NFJs(at least INFJs) are more rational than INTJs about this sort of stuff because they use Ti and thus are more capable of changing their stance if reasons are given.

 

[Patrick]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION], [MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION] --
How much do you think that's an NF thing and how much a 4 thing? I'm 5w4 and I find I can muster very little energy or enthusiasm for mowing the grass or changing the cat's litter box.
Mundane *numerical* tasks such as bills or recording payments, investments, and the like, I do *to relax*. Or grocery shopping, which takes creativity and optimization.
Any insights from the NF side of the fence?

My INTJ wife is also a 5w4 (I think; she might disagree, but she rarely gets very interested in this stuff), and I could see her saying the same thing you say above.

I guess I'd have to give her credit for also being motivated by what seems meaningful. Yet, there are places where we always clash and have trouble seeing eye to eye.

The biggest one comes down to T versus F, I think. She has expressed a wish to improve our relationship and our life, and I share that sentiment with her. But when we were talking about it yesterday, she said, "I'd like you to get your thoughts together and come up with a list of three things you'd like to see change over the next six months."

The first part of that ("get your thoughts together") comes from her having learned that I'm slower than she is. With me, everything sort of emerges over time, and I don't pay attention to how much time it's taking. In contrast, she's quick; she could come up with a list of three things instantly (and she did go on to name one or two things). So, she was compromising with my style--giving me the time she figured I'd need.

The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.

I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to her request. I don't want to squash her idea; I know it's well-intentioned. But the moment I start hemming and hawing and trying to explain my Feeling-based viewpoint, she's going to start thinking I reject her idea and don't really want us to make any progress. What I really want to say is that, for me, it can't be neatly measured progress; it has to just evolve. But unfortunately, I know that for her it does have to be measured progress; otherwise it's just pie in the sky.

So, I have to swallow my pride and consider how much I'm willing to change. To meet her halfway, I have to somehow make peace with the numbers. But I also have to somehow get it across that I'm more concerned with how we feel about each other than with what actually happens.

Another facet of it is TJ versus FP. These types have almost opposite ways of dealing with conflict. The TJ wants to get things out in the open, deal with them, and have done with the issue once and for all. The FP wants to avoid conflict in the first place; and if it arises, to smooth it over and replace it with harmonious feelings and ongoing discussion. Hence, my wife is always bringing up issues we need to deal with, and I'm always shrugging and insisting that everything is evolving just as it needs to.

 

[Patrick]

Yea i hate this. I always tell my INTJ friend when he makes some argument that goes against mine without being able to give any rationale to back it up, that "your argument means nothing unless you can explain it properly and give reasons or some logic to back it up"

That probably works better with a friend than with a spouse. I'm married to an INTJ, so I can't get away with that.

Furthermore, I can see that it hurts her when someone says that sort of thing, and I don't want to hurt her. So, I give her the benefit of the doubt when I can. I raise a question or two if I feel I need to, but mostly I try to go along with her; and then, if something isn't working, I suggest alternatives (my aux Ne is good at coming up with those).

On the other side of the coin, I find that sometimes she really does intuitively grasp something in an instant that I'm slow at wrapping my mind around. She can't articulate what she sees in her mind--not well enough to make me see it too--but later on I find out that she was right about it in the first place. If I had just shrugged and done it her way, things would have worked out better; we would have avoided some problem that came up and had to be dealt with.

So, listening and going along with her sometimes does pay off, even though it seems illogical at first.

 

[grey_beard]

My INTJ wife is also a 5w4 (I think; she might disagree, but she rarely gets very interested in this stuff), and I could see her saying the same thing you say above.

I guess I'd have to give her credit for also being motivated by what seems meaningful. Yet, there are places where we always clash and have trouble seeing eye to eye.

The biggest one comes down to T versus F, I think. She has expressed a wish to improve our relationship and our life, and I share that sentiment with her. But when we were talking about it yesterday, she said, "I'd like you to get your thoughts together and come up with a list of three things you'd like to see change over the next six months."

The first part of that ("get your thoughts together") comes from her having learned that I'm slower than she is. With me, everything sort of emerges over time, and I don't pay attention to how much time it's taking. In contrast, she's quick; she could come up with a list of three things instantly (and she did go on to name one or two things). So, she was compromising with my style--giving me the time she figured I'd need.

The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.

I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to her request. I don't want to squash her idea; I know it's well-intentioned. But the moment I start hemming and hawing and trying to explain my Feeling-based viewpoint, she's going to start thinking I reject her idea and don't really want us to make any progress. What I really want to say is that, for me, it can't be neatly measured progress; it has to just evolve. But unfortunately, I know that for her it does have to be measured progress; otherwise it's just pie in the sky.

So, I have to swallow my pride and consider how much I'm willing to change. To meet her halfway, I have to somehow make peace with the numbers. But I also have to somehow get it across that I'm more concerned with how we feel about each other than with what actually happens.

Another facet of it is TJ versus FP. These types have almost opposite ways of dealing with conflict. The TJ wants to get things out in the open, deal with them, and have done with the issue once and for all. The FP wants to avoid conflict in the first place; and if it arises, to smooth it over and replace it with harmonious feelings and ongoing discussion. Hence, my wife is always bringing up issues we need to deal with, and I'm always shrugging and insisting that everything is evolving just as it needs to.

Let me see if I can translate. (I don't want to step into someone else's marriage; but on the other hand, I don't merely play an INTJ 5w4 on TV...I *am* one.)

Are there things about her mannerism or style...are there *habits* -- think of the confession in the Catholic Church ("We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done") -- which positively drive you *nuts* ?1

It may be an underlying approach or attitude (as you say, bringing up issues vs shrugging and insisting)... or it may be "condensing to a point" vs. "exploring the feelings and ramifications").
Are there things you wish to find or share or experience with her, or in her daily behavior, which just *aren't* there?
Efficiency, as she understands it, may be one thing...but so is the proverbial "taking time to smell the flowers" : to take time to just breathe, and enjoy the blue sky and the fresh wind; to savor a favorite lunch, or enjoy the cool down and stretching after a workout -- instead of just rushing on to the next appointed task(TM).

Consider it in that light -- things that are like a pebble in your shoe, like the garment tag on the inside of a shirt scratching your neck -- that if you thought about it, would reduce considerably your dissatisfaction.

That's the best I can get to being non-5w4 about it. Maybe some other INFPs who are more used to INTJs from the *outside*, can take it from here.

 

[ceecee]

The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.

I would ask this. But I'm not a 5w4. And I don't have an INFP, I have an ENFJ 9w8 and he is an engineer. So he isn't so offended if I were to apply numbers to human relations, we apply numbers to everything. He would be more upset if I gave him the 3-6 months. He would take that as me not being as concerned as I should be about something in our relationship or life, especially if I brought it up. I wouldn't do this either because I'm an 8w9 and I would probably say - you have 5 minutes - GO!

I kid. I'm not that bad. 15 minutes.

 

[chubber]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION], [MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION] --
How much do you think that's an NF thing and how much a 4 thing? I'm 5w4 and I find I can muster very little energy or enthusiasm for mowing the grass or changing the cat's litter box.
Mundane *numerical* tasks such as bills or recording payments, investments, and the like, I do *to relax*. Or grocery shopping, which takes creativity and optimization.
Any insights from the NF side of the fence?

In my case, I automate as much as I can, the bills, grocery shopping, bulk buy.

Grocery shopping, weekly goods (fresh produce), and cleaning the apartment is mundane I'm terrible at doing that. That's where my ISTJ brother and my ESFJ ex were brilliant with cleaning. I've wondered about my own cleaning habits and I only clean the most important stuff near to me. Unlike my brother, who cleans everything and has it's place and structured.

Shopping for me, I usually plan ahead what I want, I know where the items are located and only go after what I wanted. When I went with the INFP, she would encourage me to try something else, then I stop resisting, but then I turn into the ESFP and everything shiny I want to try and I buy too much of something I've never tried. Then she gets mad and turns into the ESTJ which then orders and talks down to me. Because now she reminds me of why I shouldn't be buying 10 items of something I might not even like and to cut my over indulging out.

It's a vicious cycle, but also never a dull moment.

What I've also noticed is this selective memory that xNFPs have, very much like some would mention about xSTJs. they only hear what they want to hear. They take "something said about A and B in context 1" and "something said about C and D in context 2" and comes out as "something said about A and D in context 3". I have to wonder what I am saying that makes them perceive it that way. I'm guessing it could be because they get angry in the process and then associate/categorised it differently.

The other problem, xNTJ appears cold towards xNFPs, and especially INFPs can't really handle the coldness. So I can only see the INFP handle the INTJ when the INTJ isn't really an INTJ, so what is really fair? There will always be that fight and the INTJ will also expect the INFP to handle coldness, not give up (which the xNTJ perceives as, where they, the INFP, moved on already. aka perspective), which they can't. So who is wrong, neither.

Thing is, [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] is romanticising the "play" Ne/Ni which is untrue, it is literally disagreements. That could be stemming from her Fi fantasising it. So I'm just out to stop it, it's selling the untrue Fairytale Disney dream. (INTJ selling doom and gloom again?) I would like to think I'm being realistic. The play between Ne/Ni is fun'ish, but the INFP's Ne is their Auxiliary and it will not be the same as the ENFP's Ne-Dom that can put up with much longer of Ni. Eventually the INTJ will have to use Te and then the INFP will ... well die inside. They will make everything personal and think it is their fault, when the INTJ is merely discussing objectively, which allows to make tough decisions easier.

I wonder if this is what [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] meant, why INFPs are annoying.

 

[Patrick]

What I've also noticed is this selective memory that xNFPs have, very much like some would mention about xSTJs. they only hear what they want to hear. They take "something said about A and B in context 1" and "something said about C and D in context 2" and comes out as "something said about A and D in context 3". I have to wonder what I am saying that makes them perceive it that way. I'm guessing it could be because they get angry in the process and then associate/categorised it differently.

As an INFP, I'd say it's just that when you say something "about A and B in context 1," we hear only "something said in context 1." And when you say something "about C and D in context 2," we only hear "something said in context 2." Furthermore, our memory of the context is mainly of our emotional experience; so no matter what the circumstances were or what was actually said, we only remember that you were being nice or mean or picky or reassuring or whatever. Hence, context 1 and context 2 might look the same to us, though they look different to you. By the time we get to context 3, that's probably just a vague impression of how you've been in the past, how you're being now, and how we feel. As to what you actually said--well, words are slippery anyway; each one has a range of possible meaning, so it's best not to take A, B, C, or D too literally.

I would guess it's very different for xSTJs. They may do the opposite: When you say something "about A and B in context 1," they hear only A and B; and when you say something "about C and D in context 2," they only hear C and D. What was said is what was said and shouldn't be connected to context at all; so it's fair to talk about "A and D in context 3" or any other irrelevant context.


Edit: I meant the above as an off-the-cuff, almost tongue-in-cheek reply. Please don't take it as a serious analysis of what happens with the types in question.

 

[Rambling]

My INTJ wife is also a 5w4 (I think; she might disagree, but she rarely gets very interested in this stuff), and I could see her saying the same thing you say above.

I guess I'd have to give her credit for also being motivated by what seems meaningful. Yet, there are places where we always clash and have trouble seeing eye to eye.

The biggest one comes down to T versus F, I think. She has expressed a wish to improve our relationship and our life, and I share that sentiment with her. But when we were talking about it yesterday, she said, "I'd like you to get your thoughts together and come up with a list of three things you'd like to see change over the next six months."

The first part of that ("get your thoughts together") comes from her having learned that I'm slower than she is. With me, everything sort of emerges over time, and I don't pay attention to how much time it's taking. In contrast, she's quick; she could come up with a list of three things instantly (and she did go on to name one or two things). So, she was compromising with my style--giving me the time she figured I'd need.

The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.

I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to her request. I don't want to squash her idea; I know it's well-intentioned. But the moment I start hemming and hawing and trying to explain my Feeling-based viewpoint, she's going to start thinking I reject her idea and don't really want us to make any progress. What I really want to say is that, for me, it can't be neatly measured progress; it has to just evolve. But unfortunately, I know that for her it does have to be measured progress; otherwise it's just pie in the sky.

So, I have to swallow my pride and consider how much I'm willing to change. To meet her halfway, I have to somehow make peace with the numbers. But I also have to somehow get it across that I'm more concerned with how we feel about each other than with what actually happens.

Another facet of it is TJ versus FP. These types have almost opposite ways of dealing with conflict. The TJ wants to get things out in the open, deal with them, and have done with the issue once and for all. The FP wants to avoid conflict in the first place; and if it arises, to smooth it over and replace it with harmonious feelings and ongoing discussion. Hence, my wife is always bringing up issues we need to deal with, and I'm always shrugging and insisting that everything is evolving just as it needs to.

I'm an INTJ science / maths trained, and I find it really easy to function in that way, getting lists of tasks, getting motivated, getting things done, then take a rest. The J kind of method. No opinions of my own on anything but just solving physics and maths questions (I'm a teacher).

Now I'm taking a course to train for lay ministry in the church, theology, essay based and for that I have to read, compare ideas, consider my own views, mesh it together and argue from different viewpoints and compare and contrast. And funnily enough I am finding that the easiest, dare I say the most efficient way of doing this effectively appears to be exactly this route of *feeling it out*, letting it evolve, develop and take its own time. I can't organise it nor enforce it. Sometimes it needs a day to rest, and there is no point in arguing. Sometimes I read and it feels like I learnt nothing...but then days later the brain just says 'ready to write it' and I start writing what seems to be formless rubbish, but then it somehow shapes itself into a structure of its own, it emerges. Truly, I'm becoming an Arts student. And the INTJ part of me is trying now to help this process by saying things like

Aren't you ready yet...the deadline is way off...(unhelpful)
You did well yesterday, take a rest (helpful)

So it is like I have the whole dialogue, both INFP and INTJ in my head! Fortunately INTJ is charmed by the newness of all this, and keen to help, and is okay with stepping back and letting it emerge now that the first few essays have gone okay. But INTJ has to know the deadlines, watch anxiously...just the usual INTJ behaviour...

 

[grey_beard]

In my case, I automate as much as I can, the bills, grocery shopping, bulk buy.

Grocery shopping, weekly goods (fresh produce), and cleaning the apartment is mundane I'm terrible at doing that. That's where my ISTJ brother and my ESFJ ex were brilliant with cleaning. I've wondered about my own cleaning habits and I only clean the most important stuff near to me. Unlike my brother, who cleans everything and has it's place and structured.

Shopping for me, I usually plan ahead what I want, I know where the items are located and only go after what I wanted. When I went with the INFP, she would encourage me to try something else, then I stop resisting, but then I turn into the ESFP and everything shiny I want to try and I buy too much of something I've never tried. Then she gets mad and turns into the ESTJ which then orders and talks down to me. Because now she reminds me of why I shouldn't be buying 10 items of something I might not even like and to cut my over indulging out.

It's a vicious cycle, but also never a dull moment.

Now that's odd. I go shopping too, but my ...is it my Fi? No, it's my sx kicks in, and I buy too much of something new. (But that's OK, I stockpile and use; except for fresh vegetables, which are cheap, I rarely need to throw something out.) And if it works, I incorporate it into my world. See also baleen whale, ingesting vast quantities and keeping the tasty plankton...

What I've also noticed is this selective memory that xNFPs have, very much like some would mention about xSTJs. they only hear what they want to hear. They take "something said about A and B in context 1" and "something said about C and D in context 2" and comes out as "something said about A and D in context 3". I have to wonder what I am saying that makes them perceive it that way. I'm guessing it could be because they get angry in the process and then associate/categorised it differently.

While I can comprehend this -- the "categorizing by felt intensity along related *emotional* axes...and then the mis-filing corrupts the memory itself, because 'well, that's how it _affected_ me' " --
I think it would drive my analytical memory clinically insane: like Sheldon in that episode of Big Bang Theory where Amy tries to correct his OCD but deliberately leaving things undone...

The other problem, xNTJ appears cold towards xNFPs, and especially INFPs can't really handle the coldness. So I can only see the INFP handle the INTJ when the INTJ isn't really an INTJ, so what is really fair? There will always be that fight and the INTJ will also expect the INFP to handle coldness, not give up (which the xNTJ perceives as, where they, the INFP, moved on already. aka perspective), which they can't. So who is wrong, neither.

Huh. Filing for reference, revisiting memories of past interactions, furiously scribbling notes. Te is kind of a buzzkill to warm fuzzies, isn't it?

Thing is, [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] is romanticising the "play" Ne/Ni which is untrue, it is literally disagreements. That could be stemming from her Fi fantasising it. So I'm just out to stop it, it's selling the untrue Fairytale Disney dream. (INTJ selling doom and gloom again?) I would like to think I'm being realistic. The play between Ne/Ni is fun'ish, but the INFP's Ne is their Auxiliary and it will not be the same as the ENFP's Ne-Dom that can put up with much longer of Ni. Eventually the INTJ will have to use Te and then the INFP will ... well die inside. They will make everything personal and think it is their fault, when the INTJ is merely discussing objectively, which allows to make tough decisions easier.

Only experience I've had was chasing Ne around like...well, I've said it too often already. But after a time, Ni wants it some Te for a change of pace; and I surmise, that the INFP wants some Fi to recharge. And yes, those could be at cross-purposes, unless the two ...combatants? each retire to their separate corners...

I wonder if this is what [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] meant, why INFPs are annoying.

My time here didn't overlap with [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] much, but I think I remember in visiting some long-mummified threads, that he was romantically entwined with an INFP once upon time. Apologies if such is too personal or taboo to mention on this site, for reasons of old politics which I wasn't around for...

 

[grey_beard]

I'm an INTJ science / maths trained, and I find it really easy to function in that way, getting lists of tasks, getting motivated, getting things done, then take a rest. The J kind of method. No opinions of my own on anything but just solving physics and maths questions (I'm a teacher).

Now I'm taking a course to train for lay ministry in the church, theology, essay based and for that I have to read, compare ideas, consider my own views, mesh it together and argue from different viewpoints and compare and contrast. And funnily enough I am finding that the easiest, dare I say the most efficient way of doing this effectively appears to be exactly this route of *feeling it out*, letting it evolve, develop and take its own time. I can't organise it nor enforce it. Sometimes it needs a day to rest, and there is no point in arguing. Sometimes I read and it feels like I learnt nothing...but then days later the brain just says 'ready to write it' and I start writing what seems to be formless rubbish, but then it somehow shapes itself into a structure of its own, it emerges. Truly, I'm becoming an Arts student. And the INTJ part of me is trying now to help this process by saying things like

Aren't you ready yet...the deadline is way off...(unhelpful)
You did well yesterday, take a rest (helpful)

So it is like I have the whole dialogue, both INFP and INTJ in my head! Fortunately INTJ is charmed by the newness of all this, and keen to help, and is okay with stepping back and letting it emerge now that the first few essays have gone okay. But INTJ has to know the deadlines, watch anxiously...just the usual INTJ behaviour...

When it's ready to be written, you'll know. It *needs* to come out. (Having written essays of mine own, under internal compulsion.)