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  1. #1
    Junior Member Northern Lights's Avatar
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    Default Getting Ti doms to open up

    I realize that INTPs and ISTPs are never going to be chatty cathys about their feelings but how does one get you guys to reflect on them and communicate them a little more? What are the prerequisites for building up that level of comfort? What actively shuts it down?
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  2. #2

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    This is solely about INTPs. Don't chase them. They have to notice you first. Then they'll observe you for a long time, interacting randomly but not often. When after awhile, they'll interact with you more frequently but still randomly until they're sure. Once certain they have a decent grasp of you and your personality, it's full court press time, constantly interacting with you.

    Unfortunately, throughout this process, they can change their minds at any time, even during the full court press time.
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  3. #3
    Squirrel! Hermit of the Forest's Avatar
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    The sort of people I generally have an easier time opening up to have at least two qualities in common.

    1. They’re stable. What I mean by that is I can say what I think/feel and they’re not going to blow up in my face with a negative emotional reaction. They may not agree, but there not super reactive either.

    2. They genuinely like me. That’s sounds obvious, but it’s important. If you can drill it in to my thick skull that, yes, you actually enjoy my presence, and no, you’re not just being nice or polite then that goes a long way.

    This isn’t an exhaustive list, but it’s a start. Bottom line though, you can’t really get someone to open up to you if for some reason they don’t want to.
    Chase the adventure. Cherish the joy.


    Cu·ri·ous
    adjective
    1. Eager to know or learn something.
    2. Strange; unusual.



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  4. #4

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    1) They can't stand most people
    2) Be someone they can stand
    3) Profit



    More seriously, my brother is INTP and I'm generally not a very pushy person to begin with, getting used to him and how he works I find really, you just have to let them (Ti-doms in general) independently take interest in you. They need a lot of time to process if something is true for themselves, but they're a bit blinder when it comes to people. Sometimes they would get stuck in the odd pedantic technicalities of what a friendship actually means in some convoluted nitpicky Ti roller coaster. (Please let them process it. They need it. They'll thank you).

    Having mutual interests help because they do a lot of what I call 'mental friendship' than physical ones. For example, my brother would talk tons about movies, and another INTP friend of mine about geography, an ISTP I know loves talking about mechanical parts & fixing things, cars, etc. They put intelligence on a pedestal, generally speaking they'll take your ability to keep up and maintain interest as intelligence and open-mindedness (which they value) but tend to not realize, even to themselves, that it's the quality of friendship that they also love (eg; that you care and can listen) even if you're not necessarily interested in the same subjects. I find this especially true for younger Ti-doms. I get told "I don't know why, I just like your presence." Oh, that little inferior Fe.

    Lots of them value that 'intellectual spark' they can get with someone more than mushy proclamations of friendship or time spent together, and more than most others enjoy intellectual candidness. Have them enjoy that and they'll fall into that trapdoor called friendship in no time.

    There are lots others I can think of but really mostly applies to the younger ones, since by age 20+ a lot of INTP are well-rounded enough to not be as awkward as they were when younger. Also, once they stick, they really stick with you. Once they trust you, I find (though this is in no way 100% true in general), I find that they tend to independently go to you for more emotional / social matters or if they need help with planning / prioritizing stuff (or whatever you are good at that they can rely on). Just gotta get through the gate I mentioned above first. Be a friend. Don't push them. Let them walk in their own path / pace a la Ji-Pe.
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.
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  5. #5
    ƃuıǝǝs | seeing Snow as White's Avatar
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    In my experience it just sort of happens and it’s a surprise or it doesn’t happen which isn’t a surprise. But I also have a face that says. Tell me everything deep and dark about yourself right here in this grocery aisle so ymmv.

    Ultimately I think it’s mainly about being patient and leaving the door open in an obvious fashion and seeing what happens. I suspect there’s an element of being observed for a long time that I don’t really notice.
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  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Be honest, especially about yourself to yourself. Hypocrisy and denial are two big turnoffs -- fundamentally dishonest folks cannot be trusted enough to engage. Also, if you seem like you believe a lot of things that aren't true, the information you provide can't be trusted either... so how is there supposed to be a discourse? We'd have to vet everything you say.

    Don't create drama or leave Ti folks feeling like you're going to drag them into a morass of emotionalism. The caveat is that if you are fundamentally honest and can admit you create drama, that helps a bit because you're aware of it, so then you can both mediate the impact of that. It reduces the impression that our freedom will be inhibited in some way by you, to either come and go OR to speak our mind without a lot of needless drama. It comes off as dangerous to autonomy, so one stays away.

    Be open -- to hearing new ideas but also to talk about deep and/or even personal topics. Everything tends to be rather detached for Ti so we can talk about some things that leave some people feeling uncomfortable. We typically won't push someone to talking about that stuff, but it does leave us with not wanting to approach the boundaries and might lead to some shutdown in communication.

    Don't take everything deathly seriously. A lot of stuff in life is both serious and funny due to inherent inconsistencies or weirdness, if you step outside of it. Laughing at something doesn't mean you disrespect it, it just means you can see it from various POVs. Also, don't think a Ti person is disrespecting something by challenging it or laughing about it, sometimes it feels very personal deep inside but also funny and/or it's a way to deal with the seriousness of it.

    Try to understand even if you don't. Ask questions, at least up to the point where someone says they don't want to discuss it anymore. i.e., don't pester or seem invasive, but show curiosity about things you don't understand, and ask for more explanation if you don't understand.

    I dunno, it's a two-way street. Ti folks have had to learn to navigate the rest of the world but we have our own pitfalls as much as anyone else that can take time to figure out -- usually in terms of needing to phrase things in ways that engender conversation rather than shutting it down, learning about productive boundaries, and seeing value / finding acceptance in other values besides raw honest discourse. But basically you want to have the conversation seem like it has a possibility of being meaningful, that you care about the interaction, and that you are not using it as a form of control.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  7. #7
    Junior Member Northern Lights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    This is solely about INTPs. Don't chase them. They have to notice you first. Then they'll observe you for a long time, interacting randomly but not often. When after awhile, they'll interact with you more frequently but still randomly until they're sure. Once certain they have a decent grasp of you and your personality, it's full court press time, constantly interacting with you.

    Unfortunately, throughout this process, they can change their minds at any time, even during the full court press time.
    The bolded is particularly what I am having issues with. Having been intensely courted for a while, I responded. It went well for a while. Now I'm being increasingly shut out. I don't understand and it makes me sad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermit of the Forest View Post
    The sort of people I generally have an easier time opening up to have at least two qualities in common.

    1. They’re stable. What I mean by that is I can say what I think/feel and they’re not going to blow up in my face with a negative emotional reaction. They may not agree, but there not super reactive either.

    2. They genuinely like me. That’s sounds obvious, but it’s important. If you can drill it in to my thick skull that, yes, you actually enjoy my presence, and no, you’re not just being nice or polite then that goes a long way.

    This isn’t an exhaustive list, but it’s a start. Bottom line though, you can’t really get someone to open up to you if for some reason they don’t want to.
    This is a really good list, thanks. I do really really like him and I think I've made it sufficiently clear that I want to spend time with him because I enjoy his company, not because of politeness or pity. However, I have trouble with emotional stability, I'll admit. I tend to blow hot and cold and I am intimate and avoidant by turns because I'm not sure how my desire for intimacy will be received and I don't want to drive him away with clinginess. I tend to overcompensate with the avoidance, perhaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    1) They can't stand most people
    2) Be someone they can stand
    3) Profit



    More seriously, my brother is INTP and I'm generally not a very pushy person to begin with, getting used to him and how he works I find really, you just have to let them (Ti-doms in general) independently take interest in you. They need a lot of time to process if something is true for themselves, but they're a bit blinder when it comes to people. Sometimes they would get stuck in the odd pedantic technicalities of what a friendship actually means in some convoluted nitpicky Ti roller coaster. (Please let them process it. They need it. They'll thank you).

    Having mutual interests help because they do a lot of what I call 'mental friendship' than physical ones. For example, my brother would talk tons about movies, and another INTP friend of mine about geography, an ISTP I know loves talking about mechanical parts & fixing things, cars, etc. They put intelligence on a pedestal, generally speaking they'll take your ability to keep up and maintain interest as intelligence and open-mindedness (which they value) but tend to not realize, even to themselves, that it's the quality of friendship that they also love (eg; that you care and can listen) even if you're not necessarily interested in the same subjects. I find this especially true for younger Ti-doms. I get told "I don't know why, I just like your presence." Oh, that little inferior Fe.

    Lots of them value that 'intellectual spark' they can get with someone more than mushy proclamations of friendship or time spent together, and more than most others enjoy intellectual candidness. Have them enjoy that and they'll fall into that trapdoor called friendship in no time.

    There are lots others I can think of but really mostly applies to the younger ones, since by age 20+ a lot of INTP are well-rounded enough to not be as awkward as they were when younger. Also, once they stick, they really stick with you. Once they trust you, I find (though this is in no way 100% true in general), I find that they tend to independently go to you for more emotional / social matters or if they need help with planning / prioritizing stuff (or whatever you are good at that they can rely on). Just gotta get through the gate I mentioned above first. Be a friend. Don't push them. Let them walk in their own path / pace a la Ji-Pe.
    Lots of good points here as well. The "friend who is also a lover" dynamic is very much at play in my specific situation as is the sharing of intellectual interests as a basis for closeness. The main problem at play here is that it's not possible to be intellectually on all the time and I'm worried about what happens if we get tired and lose momentum. I know a lot of the time that is temporary but it also feels like death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow as White View Post
    In my experience it just sort of happens and it’s a surprise or it doesn’t happen which isn’t a surprise. But I also have a face that says. Tell me everything deep and dark about yourself right here in this grocery aisle so ymmv.

    Ultimately I think it’s mainly about being patient and leaving the door open in an obvious fashion and seeing what happens. I suspect there’s an element of being observed for a long time that I don’t really notice.
    Soooo ... just wait. I am so bad at that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totenkindly View Post
    Be honest, especially about yourself to yourself. Hypocrisy and denial are two big turnoffs -- fundamentally dishonest folks cannot be trusted enough to engage. Also, if you seem like you believe a lot of things that aren't true, the information you provide can't be trusted either... so how is there supposed to be a discourse? We'd have to vet everything you say.

    Don't create drama or leave Ti folks feeling like you're going to drag them into a morass of emotionalism. The caveat is that if you are fundamentally honest and can admit you create drama, that helps a bit because you're aware of it, so then you can both mediate the impact of that. It reduces the impression that our freedom will be inhibited in some way by you, to either come and go OR to speak our mind without a lot of needless drama. It comes off as dangerous to autonomy, so one stays away.

    Be open -- to hearing new ideas but also to talk about deep and/or even personal topics. Everything tends to be rather detached for Ti so we can talk about some things that leave some people feeling uncomfortable. We typically won't push someone to talking about that stuff, but it does leave us with not wanting to approach the boundaries and might lead to some shutdown in communication.

    Don't take everything deathly seriously. A lot of stuff in life is both serious and funny due to inherent inconsistencies or weirdness, if you step outside of it. Laughing at something doesn't mean you disrespect it, it just means you can see it from various POVs. Also, don't think a Ti person is disrespecting something by challenging it or laughing about it, sometimes it feels very personal deep inside but also funny and/or it's a way to deal with the seriousness of it.

    Try to understand even if you don't. Ask questions, at least up to the point where someone says they don't want to discuss it anymore. i.e., don't pester or seem invasive, but show curiosity about things you don't understand, and ask for more explanation if you don't understand.

    I dunno, it's a two-way street. Ti folks have had to learn to navigate the rest of the world but we have our own pitfalls as much as anyone else that can take time to figure out -- usually in terms of needing to phrase things in ways that engender conversation rather than shutting it down, learning about productive boundaries, and seeing value / finding acceptance in other values besides raw honest discourse. But basically you want to have the conversation seem like it has a possibility of being meaningful, that you care about the interaction, and that you are not using it as a form of control.
    This is a really, really, really good and helpful post. Some of the qualities you mention are traits I either lack or struggle with, particularly the need not to take everything deathly seriously. I can be sort of superficially light-hearted but more often, I usually take things pretty seriously, perhaps even too seriously, and am liable to be upset when someone laughs at problems instead of recognizing it as a coping strategy. I also struggle with the communication shutdown and wondering whether or not I'm being too invasive.

    Thanks for the inputs, y'all.

  8. #8
    ƃuıǝǝs | seeing Snow as White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    The bolded is particularly what I am having issues with. Having been intensely courted for a while, I responded. It went well for a while. Now I'm being increasingly shut out. I don't understand and it makes me sad!



    This is a really good list, thanks. I do really really like him and I think I've made it sufficiently clear that I want to spend time with him because I enjoy his company, not because of politeness or pity. However, I have trouble with emotional stability, I'll admit. I tend to blow hot and cold and I am intimate and avoidant by turns because I'm not sure how my desire for intimacy will be received and I don't want to drive him away with clinginess. I tend to overcompensate with the avoidance, perhaps.



    Lots of good points here as well. The "friend who is also a lover" dynamic is very much at play in my specific situation as is the sharing of intellectual interests as a basis for closeness. The main problem at play here is that it's not possible to be intellectually on all the time and I'm worried about what happens if we get tired and lose momentum. I know a lot of the time that is temporary but it also feels like death.



    Soooo ... just wait. I am so bad at that!



    This is a really, really, really good and helpful post. Some of the qualities you mention are traits I either lack or struggle with, particularly the need not to take everything deathly seriously. I can be sort of superficially light-hearted but more often, I usually take things pretty seriously, perhaps even too seriously, and am liable to be upset when someone laughs at problems instead of recognizing it as a coping strategy. I also struggle with the communication shutdown and wondering whether or not I'm being too invasive.

    Thanks for the inputs, y'all.
    oh yes i understand the impatience of waiting very much. this is just what has sort of worked for me after targeting poor Ti-doms with my "let's connect" gaze and seeing them desperately running for dear life.

    I can also relate to the running hot and cold about things and people. it's annoying having it happen to me and i imagine it's annoying to the other party as well.

    i think maybe what worked for me was learning to relax a little bit and be ok with making the mistakes and just seeing what happens.

  9. #9
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    From my experience with both INTPs and ISTPs, consistency in expression and encouragement while giving them space. Then, after awhile, they start poking fun at your personal inconsistencies and you are golden.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    The bolded is particularly what I am having issues with. Having been intensely courted for a while, I responded. It went well for a while. Now I'm being increasingly shut out. I don't understand and it makes me sad!
    That's when you back off and they'll either return to you if they needed some personal space or if for some reason, they've judged you negatively, they're gone for good. I'll openly admit that that type of behavior pisses me off when they can't be bothered to give you a heads up about their need for personal space, or why they've judged you poorly and decided to split.
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