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Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts Instincts in Pick Up Artists (PUA) ?

bluejay

New member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
20
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
5
Something i've been interested in lately is the ennea subtypes of folks in the more hardcore people involved in the 'pick up' community....

Those that use the techniques to "get laid", but also:

Subscribe to the whole philosophy of only having sex with the most attractive women they can find, playing multiple (usually) women at the same time et al. And applying a evolutionary biological approach to all life.

I get a feeling this is extreme SP? or perhaps, SX last.. thoughts?


It's somewhat morbidly fascinating to me, in the sense that I cannot relate to it all, but like a train wreck I cannot look away....
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It is an extremely defensive strategy. I can see unhealthy self-protection involved. I wouldn't put it on all SPs though because it has more to do with over compensation for damaged ego issues.
 

bluejay

New member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
20
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
5
Yes, that makes sense. Defensive is an interesting way to look at it- i'm curious if you could expand on that? :) from an enneagram perspective. Is it the SP that's 'damaged' (I do stress that I am not blaming, just seeking understanding.. from a 5-ish perspective, haha) do you think? or more, it is actually SX last? a sort of damaged SX?

Jumping off your thoughts- it's like self Preservation instinct used to understand and manifest the SX instinct, perhaps? a sort of "projection".

I find the evolutionary dogma merged with attraction quite interesting. Because I have never thought of sex and relationships in that completely biological way. However, I am also female and don't experience relationships the same way other genders do.

I do think that biological "gender" and ones own masculine/feminine "essence" (as per Deida) influences the instincts.
 
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,100
Pick up artists are horrible people.

Agreed. The time and energy spent on ‘conquering’ a new person every night could be spent pursuing a meaningful relationship with someone. What a cold empty existence.

To answer the question idk maybe it’s a sx last blind spot thing or a warped sx first thing. In any case they view other human beings as objects to deceive and dominate and it suggests a fear of intimacy and lack of ability to connect to another human being.

Perhaps you should research recovered PUA’s and gain insight from their transformation.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Yes, that makes sense. Defensive is an interesting way to look at it- i'm curious if you could expand on that? :) from an enneagram perspective. Is it the SP that's 'damaged' (I do stress that I am not blaming, just seeking understanding.. from a 5-ish perspective, haha) do you think? or more, it is actually SX last? a sort of damaged SX?

Jumping off your thoughts- it's like self Preservation instinct used to understand and manifest the SX instinct, perhaps? a sort of "projection".

I find the evolutionary dogma merged with attraction quite interesting. Because I have never thought of sex and relationships in that completely biological way. However, I am also female and don't experience relationships the same way other genders do.

I do think that biological "gender" and ones own masculine/feminine "essence" (as per Deida) influences the instincts.
I tend to try not to think too much about these sorts of dynamics, but my basic impression is that PUA is designed for people with lower self-esteem, especially in terms of their sexuality, and gives them a way to try to control others to fix it. That is always a very bad formula and doomed for failure psychologically. It is sad that so many people feel a lot of sexual rejection that damages self-worth. It is a complicated issue because it is one of the few things that we do kinda need positive reinforcement from others outside of ourselves to feel. There has to be a better way to help people feel like others are lucky to be with them socially, and to have good self esteem about sexuality and relationships. The problem is that learning to control others, manipulate them, make them also feel badly about themselves, requiring that only acceptance by the most attractive people should bolster our self esteem, etc. is heading down the exactly wrong path and will lower self-esteem in the long run I strongly suspect.

If they could teach people how to feel good about self as independently of others as possible, that would be a good first step. Then learning how to connect with others without putting pressure on them is a great second step for romantic success. People need to feel the courage to take the risk of trying and not be too devastated by rejection without having to de-humanize the source of rejection. Then people could just imagine what would be the most amazing partner for themselves and try to be that for someone else. Also, the culture as a whole in the U.S. could relax more about sexuality because people are too uptight about it in bizarre ways. As a side-note I think there is a significant correlation between violence and sexual repression in society.

edit: had to fix some weird autocorrect and typos
 

rav3n

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Messages
11,655
Sx =/= sex. It's about the search for deep intimate connections which is the polar opposite of PUA.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Messages
19,769
I doubt there is a hardcore correlation and I even doubt that such people are doing it 100% of the time.
 

bluejay

New member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
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MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
5
Sx =/= sex. It's about the search for deep intimate connections which is the polar opposite of PUA.

Of course not- but Sx is also not explicitly about intimate relationships either, per se. It's like an energetic crucible. That in my current perspective, PUA's can't seem to believe exists. Hence resorting to PUA. That's my current theory and may change.

But I imagine it's not a hard and fast rule that no Sx firsters or seconders would not be amongst the 'community'... would be interesting to explore those that do. Perhaps a manifestation of an extremely neurotic sx instinct (such as through the use of manipulation or NLP.. which in other ways could also be viewed as So).
 

bluejay

New member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
20
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
5
I tend to try not to think too much about these sorts of dynamics, but my basic impression is that PUA is designed for people with lower self-esteem, especially in terms of their sexuality, and gives them a way to try to control others to fix it. That is always a very bad formula and doomed for failure psychologically. It is sad that so many people feel a lot of sexual rejection that damages self-worth. It is a complicated issue because it is one of the few things that we do kinda need positive reinforcement from others outside of ourselves to feel. There has to be a better way to help people feel like others are lucky to be with them socially, and to have good self esteem about sexuality and relationships. The problem is that learning to control others, manipulate them, make them also feel badly about themselves, requiring that only acceptance by the most attractive people should bolster our self esteem, etc. is heading down the exactly wrong path and will lower self-esteem in the long run I strongly suspect.

If they could teach people how to feel good about self as independently of others as possible, that would be a good first step. Then learning how to connect with others without putting pressure on them is a great second step for romantic success. People need to feel the courage to take the risk of trying and not be too devastated by rejection without having to de-humanize the source of rejection. Then people could just imagine what would be the most amazing partner for themselves and try to be that for someone else. Also, the culture as a whole in the U.S. could relax more about sexuality because people are too uptight about it in bizarre ways. As a side-note I think there is a significant correlation between violence and sexual repression in society.

edit: had to fix some weird autocorrect and typos

Very interesting thoughts on violence and sexual repression. Reminds me of Elliot Rodger, who is a manifestation of everything you mentioned.

"Girls have never seemed to have any interest in me, and I want to know why. I'm such a perfect, beautiful, fabulous guy. I should never have had any problems with girls, but I do, and I find that ridiculous" A quote by Elliot

I agree, that it is a way to project ones own perceived lack onto others. What that lack includes is self esteem as you mention. But I wonder if they lack self esteem, because they have 'disowned' the part of themselves that understands we relate to each other with our individual shadows, chemistry, and eternal grossness (the things we don't like to admit to each other). So simply being 'nice' is not always a primary part of dating/relationships/sex. Unfortunately because they cannot see this disowned part of themselves, they must manipulate others or seek retribution. It's like they have failed but they can't see the reason why.

In a way, all instincts do this projecting when unchecked anyway... like SP becoming overly controlling or SO militant against others.
 

bluejay

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Agreed. The time and energy spent on ‘conquering’ a new person every night could be spent pursuing a meaningful relationship with someone. What a cold empty existence.

To answer the question idk maybe it’s a sx last blind spot thing or a warped sx first thing. In any case they view other human beings as objects to deceive and dominate and it suggests a fear of intimacy and lack of ability to connect to another human being.

Perhaps you should research recovered PUA’s and gain insight from their transformation.

Yes, on occasion I do infiltrate their communities as I find it so morbidly fascinating and bizarre. Unfortunately I cannot hold my tongue sometimes and end up in arguments lol I will continue studying from afar, as I do enjoy sleuthing.
 

rav3n

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Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Of course not- but Sx is also not explicitly about intimate relationships either, per se. It's like an energetic crucible. That in my current perspective, PUA's can't seem to believe exists. Hence resorting to PUA. That's my current theory and may change.

But I imagine it's not a hard and fast rule that no Sx firsters or seconders would not be amongst the 'community'... would be interesting to explore those that do. Perhaps a manifestation of an extremely neurotic sx instinct (such as through the use of manipulation or NLP.. which in other ways could also be viewed as So).
PUA teaches men not to be sx, not to seek true intimacy with anyone, self-protecting (sp) first through the application of their social (so) instinct. Sadly, to attempt to behave in a manner that's counter to what sx first needs, leaves them forever unsatisfied, always seeking, always craving and getting more cynical until they become totally neurotic from combating their natural drive through forced training.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
PUA teaches men not to be sx, not to seek true intimacy with anyone, self-protecting (sp) first through the application of their social (so) instinct. Sadly, to attempt to behave in a manner that's counter to what sx first needs, leaves them forever unsatisfied, always seeking, always craving and getting more cynical until they become totally neurotic from combating their natural drive through forced training.


For me PUA is much more unhealthy Sx with some elements of SO than none Sx.
Also Sp dom probably wouldn't go around picking partners in mass. Plus they are likely to lack charisma for doing this.
 

Lexicon

Temporal Mechanic
Staff member
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Sep 28, 2008
Messages
12,342
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JINX
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5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Being a manipulative, socially impotent loser is not type-related. Unhealthy compensatory behaviors in general aren’t.
 

bluejay

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Being a manipulative, socially impotent loser is not type-related. Unhealthy compensatory behaviors in general aren’t.

I wish lol. I sorta agree.. however..

The instincts are always in action in people, and this whole movement is interesting.. in the same way as witch hunts of eras gone by display the Social instinct and social instinct and sexual instincts gone haywire.

I know it's not customary to see the negative side of instincts, but they are working behind the scenes at all times.

I would think a 5 be interested in things that are weird, wrong or bizarre. Personally, I find it "weird" which is why I am interested in it :smile:

The notion of reducing relationships to evolutionary psychology is so far away from my personal mindset, I can't help but find it utterly fascinating and wish to study it, learn about it, and encapsulate it into a theory. I like to ask "why" about dark subjects. This whole pick up world gets extremely dark and cynical with some people. Look at connections between PUA materials and people who become violent in society. Particularly young men.

I am fascinated by the darkness and callousness.. PUA is like a bewitching dark art. And I am fascinated by who it attracts, and the kind of people it attracts.

My theory goes that it attracts all types.. in particular uber rationals, emotionally sensitive, and those with a high potentiality towards cynicism towards entire groups of people.

To think that women should settle down before they are 25, because they lose their value to men is fascinating to me. Why would someone think that and draw upon evolutionary psychology, biology and ideology to support this? why would someone completely swear off and become celibate because they 'hate women'. I know this a weird obsession to more moral types, but it's the truly dark cynicism that I find intriguing. I don't understand how someone would come to such conclusions, so I must understand.
 

Bush

cute lil war dog
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Nov 18, 2008
Messages
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sp/so
I can't see it as anything other than sx.
 

cascadeco

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9,083
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INFJ
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I haven't read any other responses, but I don't think it has anything to do with instincts. It's more of a mental manipulation thing -- it's almost intellectual in a way, since they're completely breaking down and applying all of the 'rules' and techniques necessary to acquire someone.
 

Snow as White

ƃuıǝǝs | seeing
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Dec 29, 2017
Messages
471
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ENFP
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I can't see it as anything other than sx.

idk, not sure if it is related to instincts... however, to me this seems more of a SP or SO thing since it's a false intimacy.
Real intimacy is two equals coming together in vulnerability.

this is a power game and there is a gap created because of that power. false store front up front; amazon distribution center in the back.
 

cascadeco

New member
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idk, not sure if it is related to instincts... however, to me this seems more of a SP or SO thing since it's a false intimacy.
Real intimacy is two equals coming together in vulnerability.

this is a power game and there is a gap created because of that power. false store front up front; amazon distribution center in the back.

Not to single just you out, as others have mentioned it and sx is typically only associated with intimacy, as if the other instincts are not desirous of it, but sx I think can be more about maintaining 'intensity' and excitement,which can easily be a surface level intimacy. Meaning, I think one could make the case that an sx dom could easily do pua, to keep all of those highs going. (which is why I ultimately don't think it has much to do with instincts- each instinct could probably have a drive for doing it, it's about socially inept or crappy people who need something like this to 'score' or just for kicks and to tally up a list)
 
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