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Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts Instincts in Pick Up Artists (PUA) ?

Snow as White

ƃuıǝǝs | seeing
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Messages
471
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Not to single just you out, as others have mentioned it and sx is typically only associated with intimacy, as if the other instincts are not desirous of it, but sx I think can be more about maintaining 'intensity' and excitement,which can easily be a surface level intimacy. Meaning, I think one could make the case that an sx dom could easily do pua, to keep all of those highs going. (which is why I ultimately don't think it has much to do with instincts- each instinct could probably have a drive for doing it, it's about socially inept or crappy people who need something like this to 'score' or just for kicks and to tally up a list)

nod - i realize that i was being too ambiguous there. I didn't mean to have it be so that SP/SO people don't want intimacy or somehow can't do it. Posted without thinking much really. :)

I agree that the instincts are too simple to really be able to pinpoint as the smoking gun of why PUA happens. For each would have its own motivation. What mainly came to mind for me was that guy who wrote those books, Hope they serve beer in hell? and he just seemed to be the epitome of king ass and reveling in fake intimacies.

i like your comment about sx being more intensity - that makes a lot of sense. must think further :)
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,708
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
Being a manipulative, socially impotent loser is not type-related. Unhealthy compensatory behaviors in general aren’t.

images
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
idk, not sure if it is related to instincts... however, to me this seems more of a SP or SO thing since it's a false intimacy.
Real intimacy is two equals coming together in vulnerability.

this is a power game and there is a gap created because of that power. false store front up front; amazon distribution center in the back.


I am Sx last and Sx people often strike as the biggest fakes in room. Sx is basically intimacy at almost any cost and therefore the odds for fake intimacy are realistic for them.
 

deathwarmedup

New member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
416
MBTI Type
IXTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I am Sx last and Sx people often strike as the biggest fakes in room. Sx is basically intimacy at almost any cost and therefore the odds for fake intimacy are realistic for them.

You either have intimacy or you don't. Fake intimacy is a contradiction in terms to anyone seeking intimacy. SX is more like intimacy or nothing, which is very different from "intimacy at any cost"; sexuals often remain single for a very long time.

--

I also disagree with SX as "intensity". Maybe when it's neurotically entwined with certain fixations, but I think that one was probably popularised by self-styled teachers who weren't sexuals.

SX and PUA doesn't jive for me. I think Snow as White was right first time.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
You either have intimacy or you don't. Fake intimacy is a contradiction in terms to anyone seeking intimacy. SX is more like intimacy or nothing, which is very different from "intimacy at any cost"; sexuals often remain single for a very long time.

--

I also disagree with SX as "intensity". Maybe when it's neurotically entwined with certain fixations, but I think that one was probably popularised by self-styled teachers who weren't sexuals.

SX and PUA doesn't jive for me. I think Snow as White was right first time.



Sx is about wanting intimacy, but will that person actually get it is completely different matter. Which is why some of them settle for half solutions (at least temporary)
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,053
MBTI Type
NeTi
Enneagram
478
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that many of these types--not all--are indeed sx-first.

Guys, I need to be honest here. Being sx-first isn't about sex per se, but it does involve issues of sexuality. Moreover, dominant instincts can be...extremely neurotic and damaged. They're survival-based, your ego is totally hung on it, AND IT'S ALWAYS INSECURE. It's where your grasping, ugly, irrational animal behaviours will surface. Like, with sx-first, individuals can be paranoid about fulfilling their gender role, paranoid about their sexuality, how attractive they are, their desirability, can they attract anyone and if they do can you keep them, etc. Who's attractive and who's not and how that relates to your own survival. Jealous, competitive, obsessive, insecure.

It's much more like this than "I want a deep intense partnership". I am speaking as an avowed sx-first who has done a lot of research and soul-searching on this matter.

I've read some of these PUA sites, as well as those of the Red Pill. And, well, I know the neurosis when I see it. I would say a goodly number of these people are indeed sx-first. Not all. There are some social-firsts (who tend to see sexuality in terms of this totally warped "wolf pack" hierarchy where the Alphas take all...lol it's fucked up). There are undoubtedly sp-firsts as well, but I tend to see this as a sx-first phenomenon with some social.

These are a generation of young men who are insecure--no one's ever told them they are attractive, and it's obvious that everyone around them is having sex with beautiful women, all the time. They're the only ones who aren't getting any. (Side note, from what I've seen, pretty much no one is getting any, but there are those who would exploit these young mens' insecurities for profit.) This infringes upon their self-esteem (for sx-firsts, this is based on being attractive at some level), their sense of themselves as males (gender roles being part of sx as well as soc). They feel (on a very unconscious level) that their survival is at stake, so they're learning the "tricks of the trade" and discharging their frustrations, often times against women themselves. Putting others down to elevate themselves.

I see it there. I see the subtle vindication when they tell me (as they have in the past) that as a woman in her 30s, I'm no longer attractive. That no one will want me anymore, that I'm a haggard old crone, that I deserve this for making mens' life miserable in my 20s. They way they think women past 30 become increasingly neurotic about the lines forming on their face and the glee they take in this, that their powers of attraction will outlast mine. I mean, guys, do you not see that this is a fixation and neurosis? This is ego lashing out--even if they were unsuccessful mates and not considered attractive, at least they're not women who lose their looks entirely the moment they turn 30. At least, as men, THEY can be attractive into old age.

I'm sorry, but this is EXACTLY what a fucked up, lashing out dominant instinct does. The things they say and do can be really hurtful and destructive. And, our destructive behaviors are often found in the area of our dominant instinct.

I'm not saying all sx-firsts do this...there are sx-firsts out there who honestly feel attractive and desirable. There are sx-firsts who don't, but know how to mask this and seduce others. There are sx-firsts who don't and give up and bear it regally, rather than abuse women for their own perceived short comings. Yes.

But I've been there, which is how I recognize it. This is these young men's focus--sexuality--and they, unfortunately, lack the age, maturity and experience to get past superficial understandings of attractiveness. One imagines that in another 10-20 years, these same people will be going on about how women always break up relationships and never affirm them, that women don't know how to be properly intimate, don't understand True Partnership, don't give them enough, you get the picture.

So, yes, I DO see the dominant narrative here as one manifestation of the sexual instinct. Yes, sx-subtypes can be promiscuous. Some authors even use that as a by-word...saying this subtype shows tendencies to be both promiscuous and celibate (affirming their attractiveness). What we're looking at is the dark and destructive side of the promiscuous end.

Yep, there are undoubtedly some socials--imo, the ones that tend to fixate more on how social roles influence mating behaviour. Probably self-pres types, too, though I can't tell you what to look for with those. But the dominant narrative on these sites? The neuroses of angry, lonely young sx-firsts.

I don't think I am wrong about this.
 

1487610420

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
6,431
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that many of these types--not all--are indeed sx-first.

Guys, I need to be honest here. Being sx-first isn't about sex per se, but it does involve issues of sexuality. Moreover, dominant instincts can be...extremely neurotic and damaged. They're survival-based, your ego is totally hung on it, AND IT'S ALWAYS INSECURE. It's where your grasping, ugly, irrational animal behaviours will surface. Like, with sx-first, individuals can be paranoid about fulfilling their gender role, paranoid about their sexuality, how attractive they are, their desirability, can they attract anyone and if they do can you keep them, etc. Who's attractive and who's not and how that relates to your own survival. Jealous, competitive, obsessive, insecure.

It's much more like this than "I want a deep intense partnership". I am speaking as an avowed sx-first who has done a lot of research and soul-searching on this matter.

I've read some of these PUA sites, as well as those of the Red Pill. And, well, I know the neurosis when I see it. I would say a goodly number of these people are indeed sx-first. Not all. There are some social-firsts (who tend to see sexuality in terms of this totally warped "wolf pack" hierarchy where the Alphas take all...lol it's fucked up). There are undoubtedly sp-firsts as well, but I tend to see this as a sx-first phenomenon with some social.

These are a generation of young men who are insecure--no one's ever told them they are attractive, and it's obvious that everyone around them is having sex with beautiful women, all the time. They're the only ones who aren't getting any. (Side note, from what I've seen, pretty much no one is getting any, but there are those who would exploit these young mens' insecurities for profit.) This infringes upon their self-esteem (for sx-firsts, this is based on being attractive at some level), their sense of themselves as males (gender roles being part of sx as well as soc). They feel (on a very unconscious level) that their survival is at stake, so they're learning the "tricks of the trade" and discharging their frustrations, often times against women themselves. Putting others down to elevate themselves.

I see it there. I see the subtle vindication when they tell me (as they have in the past) that as a woman in her 30s, I'm no longer attractive. That no one will want me anymore, that I'm a haggard old crone, that I deserve this for making mens' life miserable in my 20s. They way they think women past 30 become increasingly neurotic about the lines forming on their face and the glee they take in this, that their powers of attraction will outlast mine. I mean, guys, do you not see that this is a fixation and neurosis? This is ego lashing out--even if they were unsuccessful mates and not considered attractive, at least they're not women who lose their looks entirely the moment they turn 30. At least, as men, THEY can be attractive into old age.

I'm sorry, but this is EXACTLY what a fucked up, lashing out dominant instinct does. The things they say and do can be really hurtful and destructive. And, our destructive behaviors are often found in the area of our dominant instinct.

I'm not saying all sx-firsts do this...there are sx-firsts out there who honestly feel attractive and desirable. There are sx-firsts who don't, but know how to mask this and seduce others. There are sx-firsts who don't and give up and bear it regally, rather than abuse women for their own perceived short comings. Yes.

But I've been there, which is how I recognize it. This is these young men's focus--sexuality--and they, unfortunately, lack the age, maturity and experience to get past superficial understandings of attractiveness. One imagines that in another 10-20 years, these same people will be going on about how women always break up relationships and never affirm them, that women don't know how to be properly intimate, don't understand True Partnership, don't give them enough, you get the picture.

So, yes, I DO see the dominant narrative here as one manifestation of the sexual instinct. Yes, sx-subtypes can be promiscuous. Some authors even use that as a by-word...saying this subtype shows tendencies to be both promiscuous and celibate (affirming their attractiveness). What we're looking at is the dark and destructive side of the promiscuous end.

Yep, there are undoubtedly some socials--imo, the ones that tend to fixate more on how social roles influence mating behaviour. Probably self-pres types, too, though I can't tell you what to look for with those. But the dominant narrative on these sites? The neuroses of angry, lonely young sx-firsts.

I don't think I am wrong about this.

replace every instance of "your" with "mine".
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

Give me a fourth dot.
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,053
MBTI Type
NeTi
Enneagram
478
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
replace every instance of "your" with "mine".

Yes, that's the point. I am speaking from experience.

No, I am not a pick up artist. But I do understand the psychology here, because I've endured it, and I know what this is when I see it.

EDIT: Actually reading that through again, I don't see where I even used the pronoun "your". :/ Weird comment. But the point stands.
 
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