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[so] Does typology really appeal to so many so-lasts?

Psyclepath

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Or, the alternative question: How do so-lasts view typology?

I notice a lot of people on this forum (and Personality Cafe) are sp/sx or sx/sp. It's something that I find strange, mainly because typology deals with a very human issue. In many ways, both Jung/Socionics and the Enneagram can be viewed as matrices that box humans into a grid of relative behaviours.

My understanding of the social instinct is as follows:

It's ultimately a desire to identify within societies or create them. I feel like socials are the intellectuals among the Enneagram, being generally more "sophisticated" in their interests. They are not necessarily the deepest thinkers, but I imagine fields such as comedy and debating are filled largely with social firsts. Possibly a large number of documentaries are made by social-firsts as well. Most university/college societies are headed by social-firsts.

I suppose that a sexual creative (secondary instinct) is typically going to be more idealistic and emotionally-charged than a self-preservation creative, which is focused more on order. I imagine that Keirsey's Guardian Temperament was a loose interpretation of the so/sp stacking.

In general though, I think there's a strong element of duty within all forms of the social instinct. It's the recognition that we're not alone, and we desire to create social structures. I imagine most advocates of art within society are so/sx: at least as far as using it to enrich a society is concerned. If the sexual instinct focuses on creating fulfilment, I imagine that when it's second to social, much of its energy is used to create a more fulfilling, perfect society. It's a de-valuing of the focus on practicality that is self-preservation.

 

Evo

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Yes, for me it does.

And I think it's because:
1) I like to delve into self mastery deeply. So I can become quite obsessed with accumulating knowledge that correlates with growth.
2) I do tend to notice that being contra flow (sp/sx) has a big affect on my interactions with people, so I try to bridge the gaps of misunderstandings in my relationships by learning how other people think.
 

Totenkindly

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I think part of it comes from the Social instinct being the least understood by folks...both the others describe some kind of severity in connection intensity and are probably easier to define (or misalign with).
 

Psyclepath

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I think part of it comes from the Social instinct being the least understood by folks...both the others describe some kind of severity in connection intensity and are probably easier to define (or misalign with).

Yes, no examples come specifically to mind but I struggle to believe there aren't a lot of people mistyping as so-last. The descriptions of so are in many cases extremely poor.
 

Psyclepath

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Yes, for me it does.

And I think it's because:
1) I like to delve into self mastery deeply. So I can become quite obsessed with accumulating knowledge that correlates with growth.
2) I do tend to notice that being contra flow (sp/sx) has a big affect on my interactions with people, so I try to bridge the gaps of misunderstandings in my relationships by learning how other people think.

Sounds actually quite like inferior Fe to me. I recognize that; it's something I've gone through myself.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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[MENTION=29823]Psyclepath[/MENTION]

Interesting thread, and I suppose my interest in typology is in part because I am interested in understanding human behavior, but more from an observer's point of view rather than participant. Perhaps because I don't participate socially, this is the way I get a sense of what humanity is, since I am part of that.

Also, I don't connect very well in social environments, but there are a couple people on this site with whom I've had a friendship of sorts that has spanned a decade or more. In my actual life I don't really have that. The distance is somewhat safe because it results in less social pressure to have online social interaction. It also allows me more time to think of a response and when engaging with people in a normal social way, you have to answer their questions within a minute of being asked. There is a lot of inherent pressure with normal social interactions that is much less the case in an online environment. It fills a basic human social need without the encompassing and pressured nature of most social interactions. Those are my thoughts on the topic.

My first thought about the thread is to wonder if your avatar is actually Weird Al Yankovic hugging an orangutan who is wearing an aluminum hat to be sure the aliens cannot read his thoughts?
 

Psyclepath

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[MENTION=29823]Psyclepath[/MENTION]

Interesting thread, and I suppose my interest in typology is in part because I am interested in understanding human behavior, but more from an observer's point of view rather than participant. Perhaps because I don't participate socially, this is the way I get a sense of what humanity is, since I am part of that.

Also, I don't connect very well in social environments, but there are a couple people on this site with whom I've had a friendship of sorts that has spanned a decade or more. In my actual life I don't really have that. The distance is somewhat safe because it results in less social pressure to have online social interaction. It also allows me more time to think of a response and when engaging with people in a normal social way, you have to answer their questions within a minute of being asked. There is a lot of inherent pressure with normal social interactions that is much less the case in an online environment. It fills a basic human social need without the encompassing and pressured nature of most social interactions. Those are my thoughts on the topic.

My first thought about the thread is to wonder if your avatar is actually Weird Al Yankovic hugging an orangutan who is wearing an aluminum hat to be sure the aliens cannot read his thoughts?

Hahaha - no, that picture is me. It's in the Discworld Emporium, in a small town called Wincanton in England. The town has the unique honour of being twinned with Ankh-Morpork; apparently Terry Pratchett lived in a village near there and agreed to the twinning.

It's a strange thing. I don't connect well in social environments, despite identifying as social first. It doesn't change the fact that most of the things on my mind are society-related. I've been obsessed with the U.S. Elections; the unfairness of being stuck with two great villains and a frustration of people picking on Trump, despite Hillary being (at best) barely any better. I've thought about the problems in this world: I've dreamt of creating a new society, I've thought about the endless problems a society can create. I've wanted to create my own fictional world, and recognizing how to really make it a great place, the society must be coherent. I haven't written the stories yet, because right now I don't have a good model in my head of how my own world works. Oh, and I'm really fascinated by the history of my own country and how the many towns and cities that make up England formed. All related to the social instinct, in my mind. I've tried to run a protest because the bus system in my University is run by a godawful company.

Yes, humanity is most fascinating. It's our greed that's made us rise above the animals. And yet, it's our greed that's also caused the vast majority of problems. We're all caught up in our own agenda.

I don't have a direct answer for your statements regarding the social instinct. Just wondering how much you relate to what I've said. I at least don't think the social instinct is about effectively being able to communicate: you could disagree with me here.
 

Agent Washington

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I kind of doubt so doms would actually be drawn to typology as much because there seems to be an instinctive understanding of how people work, unless there's this inclination to delve into theory and typology happens to be one of those areas of interest.

typology seems to me to be kinda a niche amateur interest, at least online, here. The reason you speak of SO doms actually being out there in the field as opposed to going into niche amateur discussions is perhaps because that's already something they spent a lot of time figuring out and know how to navigate the world.
 

Psyclepath

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I kind of doubt so doms would actually be drawn to typology as much because there seems to be an instinctive understanding of how people work, unless there's this inclination to delve into theory and typology happens to be one of those areas of interest.

typology seems to me to be kinda a niche amateur interest, at least online, here. The reason you speak of SO doms actually being out there in the field as opposed to going into niche amateur discussions is perhaps because that's already something they spent a lot of time figuring out and know how to navigate the world.

I attribute this more to having shit Fe than anything else.

Having low-order Fe means that systemizing human behaviour is an easy way to understand it, as it allows me to rely on Ti instead of the heavy weight that is Fe. Ti-doms have a naturally systematic mind.
 

Agent Washington

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I attribute this more to having shit Fe than anything else.

Having low-order Fe means that systemizing human behaviour is an easy way to understand it, as it allows me to rely on Ti instead of the heavy weight that is Fe. Ti-doms have a naturally systematic mind.

That makes sense too. for the rest of us it's basically theory that would help, since we just don't have an intuitive grasp for it.

Where enneagram and MBTI intersects, I guess.
 

Psyclepath

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That makes sense too. for the rest of us it's basically theory that would help, since we just don't have an intuitive grasp for it.

Where enneagram and MBTI intersects, I guess.

The simple way I see Fe is that it's focused on creating emotional atmospheres. I know a very self-centered xSFJ who is the last person you'd expect to identify as Fe, but it's clear from her communication that she is one. Effectively, Fe-valuers wish to create an environment where others are free to speak their thoughts. Fi-valuers wish to conceal this. However, this could manifest as self-preservation or sexual just as easily as it could social.

Instincts are all about survival. I'd be interested to get some videos of interactions that play heavily towards particular instinctual stacks.
 

Agent Washington

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The simple way I see Fe is that it's focused on creating emotional atmospheres. I know a very self-centered xSFJ who is the last person you'd expect to identify as Fe, but it's clear from her communication that she is one. Effectively, Fe-valuers wish to create an environment where others are free to speak their thoughts. Fi-valuers wish to conceal this. However, this could manifest as self-preservation or sexual just as easily as it could social.

Instincts are all about survival. I'd be interested to get some videos of interactions that play heavily towards particular instinctual stacks.

Survival is much easier with so instincts because that's essentially what humans are, and that's why I don't like having an so blind spot, to be honest.

I don't agree that Fe wishes to create such an environment. It's likely a result of Ti internalising that such an environment is simply the most ethical social environment, and Fe acts on it. Function stacks are not a drive. But I haven't really looked deeply enough at various interpretations of jungian functions to actually delve deeply enough into it, so feel free to disagree.
 

five sounds

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i feel like navigating ACTUAL social situations is always tarnished by SO stuff to me. like, to me i see the way people get along to be fabricated and superficial. like networking and being in groups with social norms kinda freaks me out because to me that shit isn't real. so by looking deeper into human interaction, i'm seeking to find the nature of ourselves outside of cultural/societal/regional/etc. influence.

so to me, the rules or feedback my environment gives me for how different people relate to one another seems narrow or unreliable. also, it doesn't work for me. so i'm looking for other ways to understand it. because i really love people and connection, but i also tend to be socially brutish.
 

cascadeco

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i feel like navigating ACTUAL social situations is always tarnished by SO stuff to me. like, to me i see the way people get along to be fabricated and superficial. like networking and being in groups with social norms kinda freaks me out because to me that shit isn't real. so by looking deeper into human interaction, i'm seeking to find the nature of ourselves outside of cultural/societal/regional/etc. influence.

so to me, the rules or feedback my environment gives me for how different people relate to one another seems narrow or unreliable. also, it doesn't work for me. so i'm looking for other ways to understand it. because i really love people and connection, but i also tend to be socially brutish.

For me, even though I am so-dom, I am just as uncomfortable with social situations such as you describe, and for the same reasons. I consider myself so-dom though because I am distinctly aware of all of it, aware of what I would need to do to be part of it (even though I don't want to do it), am self concious enough about not fitting in as well or acting in that manner, but right, aware of it. So dom doesn't always equal partaking in it; there can be a counterphobic element to it, intense self conciousness element, and caring about not fitting into it even though ultimately one chooses not to do it. I think typically so-lasts are either unaware of any of it, or actually really don't care about sticking out. (btw not saying you are not so-last, just sharing my experiences as so-dom and how I can feel very similarly to you)

imo much of the typical So-descriptive things you find on the internet tend to describe 1)extroverts 2)e3 or e1 enneagram especially (ie those who tend to 'network', belong to organizations, value community stuff, and so on)
 

1487610420

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Or, the alternative question: How do so-lasts view typology?

I notice a lot of people on this forum (and Personality Cafe) are sp/sx or sx/sp. It's something that I find strange, mainly because typology deals with a very human issue. In many ways, both Jung/Socionics and the Enneagram can be viewed as matrices that box humans into a grid of relative behaviours.

My understanding of the social instinct is as follows:

It's ultimately a desire to identify within societies or create them. I feel like socials are the intellectuals among the Enneagram, being generally more "sophisticated" in their interests. They are not necessarily the deepest thinkers, but I imagine fields such as comedy and debating are filled largely with social firsts. Possibly a large number of documentaries are made by social-firsts as well. Most university/college societies are headed by social-firsts.

I suppose that a sexual creative (secondary instinct) is typically going to be more idealistic and emotionally-charged than a self-preservation creative, which is focused more on order. I imagine that Keirsey's Guardian Temperament was a loose interpretation of the so/sp stacking.

In general though, I think there's a strong element of duty within all forms of the social instinct. It's the recognition that we're not alone, and we desire to create social structures. I imagine most advocates of art within society are so/sx: at least as far as using it to enrich a society is concerned. If the sexual instinct focuses on creating fulfilment, I imagine that when it's second to social, much of its energy is used to create a more fulfilling, perfect society. It's a de-valuing of the focus on practicality that is self-preservation.


Okay.
 

1487610420

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i feel like navigating ACTUAL social situations is always tarnished by SO stuff to me. like, to me i see the way people get along to be fabricated and superficial. like networking and being in groups with social norms kinda freaks me out because to me that shit isn't real. so by looking deeper into human interaction, i'm seeking to find the nature of ourselves outside of cultural/societal/regional/etc. influence.

so to me, the rules or feedback my environment gives me for how different people relate to one another seems narrow or unreliable. also, it doesn't work for me. so i'm looking for other ways to understand it. because i really love people and connection, but i also tend to be socially brutish.

I think most people aren't comfortable being open and bare with others or often with themselves. So in a way, the social protocol is like a collective save face for the individual. I don't like cliques and mob mentality, and rather prefer to not bother with/ find external expectation trying.
 

five sounds

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I think most people aren't comfortable being open and bare with others or often with themselves. So in a way, the social protocol is like a collective save face for the individual. I don't like cliques and mob mentality, and rather prefer to not bother with/ find external expectation trying.

OK so I feel silly after what [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] said bc I feel my understanding of social instinct is not great maybe. I know nobody likes the 'game' really, or most don't. But to me it's like awareness of it existing and feeling like I'm at a disadvantage because I don't really know how to play. Like trying to talk about football when I have a rudimentary idea of the rules but have picked some stuff up through observation. Also groups of people at all just shut me right down. Idk.
 

1487610420

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OK so I feel silly after what [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] said bc I feel my understanding of social instinct is not great maybe. I know nobody likes the 'game' really, or most don't. But to me it's like awareness of it existing and feeling like I'm at a disadvantage because I don't really know how to play. Like trying to talk about football when I have a rudimentary idea of the rules but have picked some stuff up through observation. Also groups of people at all just shut me right down. Idk.


Idk, I was/can be oblivious to it somewhat, it's more of noticing the consequences if I don't make an effort, thus peer pressure/expectation, people might assume/judge when I'd rather not have to bother. While I know to be friendly and warm, that is more taxing than being myself among those I don't have to worry about that. Tbh, similar to tiptoeing around feelers :D
 

cascadeco

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OK so I feel silly after what [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] said bc I feel my understanding of social instinct is not great maybe. I know nobody likes the 'game' really, or most don't. But to me it's like awareness of it existing and feeling like I'm at a disadvantage because I don't really know how to play. Like trying to talk about football when I have a rudimentary idea of the rules but have picked some stuff up through observation. Also groups of people at all just shut me right down. Idk.

Yeah, most social groups make me feel uncomfortable, at least in a party setting, acquaintance setting, whatnot. I'm incredibly uncomfortable in most social settings and am mostly a loner. But I have always wished for a group I really belonged to, people I loved being around, was fully comfortable with and Me with, though, it may not exist. But I guess I do notice how the overall group works and what's 'expected' in theory, thus am not at a disadvantage due to lack of seeing or knowing, but rather my disadvantage is that in most cases it's not me at all, I don't agree with it, I simply can't socialize that way, don't relate to the people, etc, thus don't do it.

Where being so dom comes in handy in a huge way though is in the workforce-- basically having a smooth ride because I know who it's ok to say certain things to (who is trustworthy where it won't come back to bite me), who to never say or do something around, who's best buds/engages in ass kissing, and so on. It's people reading at a group level, seeing how individuals interact together and who's associated with whom. What's 'the norm' in the company culture, so easy to know what not to do unless you are ok with potential repercussions, etc. So professionally being so dom is a distinct advantage I think. Not that I ever had any desire to 'climb the ladder', and I never schmooze, but I could have a drama free incident free existence mostly in the workplace.
 
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