[so] Do Any of You Enjoy/Encourage Being Hard On People?

[Auto/Virtuosi=L.A.P.]

No, and I hate the idea of keeping someone "in their place."

If it has to be done, it has to be done, but it seems a weird thing to take pleasure in. I feel like only people who are really insecure would enjoy this kind of pissing contest.

Did you enjoy using 'weird' and 'insecure' to describe others you chose to reproach? It makes enjoying assertiveness sound inferior to enjoying meekness. This behavior reminds you of a bully, doesn't it? I ask because you weren't provoked to be accusatory in this thread. If we think of enjoying assertion as a conditioned response to mistreatment, or even simply a way to feel a sense of order, then we'd find we have more in common than we'd assume.

Haha

"Enjoy" keeping people in their place? As a goal in and of itself?

That's extremely pathetic.

This is too ironic. You're picking a grouping of people to chastise as if to declare their worth is beneath others', yet you're the one with moral integrity? This is exactly what I'm talking about. While you're out there playing the "righteous guy" you're among they that forget their place amongst everyone else as an equally self-entitled human being. I run into it all the damned time. When you get it right back don't forget you asked for it.

Anywho, thus denotes the point of this thread. People generally think of themselves, so keeping them in place will spell out the nature of your time with them.

 

[senza tema]

Did you enjoy using 'weird' and 'insecure' to describe others you chose to reproach? It makes enjoying assertiveness sound inferior to enjoying meekness. This behavior reminds you of a bully, doesn't it? I ask because you weren't provoked to be accusatory in this thread. If we think of enjoying assertion as a conditioned response to mistreatment, or even simply a way to feel a sense of order, then we'd find we have more in common than we'd assume.



This is too ironic. You're picking a grouping of people to chastise as if to declare their worth is beneath others', yet you're the one with moral integrity? This is exactly what I'm talking about. While you're out there playing the "righteous guy" you're among they that forget their place amongst everyone else as an equally self-entitled human being. I run into it all the damned time. When you get it right back don't forget you asked for it.

Anywho, thus denotes the point of this thread. People generally think of themselves, so keeping them in place will spell out the nature of your time with them.

"Putting someone in their place" is not the only way to be assertive.
Not taking pleasure in the activity isn't necessarily meek.

I do value assertiveness. To me though, it's more about carving out my space and defending my own values and boundaries (which, yes, could be construed as a reaction to ill treatment) than keeping others down. The latter is not something I take pleasure in.

 

[Auto/Virtuosi=L.A.P.]

"Putting someone in their place" is not the only way to be assertive.

However, that's why I wasn't asking everybody, and pointed this question towards people with a bit of 8 influence from the Enneagram. I started getting answers from everyone, which isn't unappreciated, but expecting everyone to relate to this wasn't intuitive.

Not taking pleasure in the activity isn't meek.

That's off tangent, but specifically I was commenting on what you were implying by calling it weird and insecure. And a "pissing contest."

 

[senza tema]

However, that's why I wasn't asking everybody, and pointed this question towards people with a bit of 8 influence from the Enneagram. I started getting answers from everyone, which isn't unappreciated, but expecting everyone to relate to this wasn't intuitive.



That's off tangent, but specifically I was commenting on what you were implying by calling it weird and insecure. And a "pissing contest."

The issue for me, and from what I can see, for several others as well is that you equated assertiveness entirely with being "alpha", putting others down, etc. This is an idea that's personally distressing to me. I can understand taking pride in being a good manager, telling unpleasant truths without fear and pushing people to better themselves. But profiting at the expense of putting people down and calling it "assertive" bugs me and strikes me as insecure behavior. I don't think ego/feeling good about oneself should be a zero sum game. That is what bugged me about your OP (not your title, just the OP) and I reacted to it.

 

[citizen cane]

Being hard on people? Absolutely. Keeping people in their place? Not so much. If you can't see the difference, think about it.

 

[violet_crown]

Like an alpha keeping people in their place. I could see SOs with some affiliation with the type 8 being a little like this at least.

Did you enjoy using 'weird' and 'insecure' to describe others you chose to reproach? It makes enjoying assertiveness sound inferior to enjoying meekness.

As an 8w7 and an Fi user, the idea of "keeping someone in their place" is still pretty foreign to me. Fi doesn't work in terms of strict hierarchies in the same way that Fe does. If I'm truly "alpha", then that position is by dent of superior ability or experience. If you can come at me and take it from me, then by all means. To see it otherwise is, at best, circular.

I've always struggled with Fe need to know "where it stands" relatively speaking. To an Fi user, it comes off as very weak, and the means that Fe users employ to extract information about where they stand within a social hierarchy, or reinforce their understanding of such, are almost instinctually distasteful. Aggression on the part of Fi users is almost always because they feel something personal to them has been violated, which I could see as coming off as spoiled and self-centered from the Fe perspective. When those lines have been crossed, we usually go for scorched earth. The point that we try to make is less, "Know your place, peasant." As, "It should be known that anyone who crosses this line again will be fucking decimated."

It's not pretty, and rarely scores political points. But yes, to answer your question, the Fi-version of putting someone in their place can be very pleasurable. No question. I think the Fi-doms and aux's get a little more unsettled by it, though. They can be sweet like that.

 

[Evo]

Does being hard on someone mean sticking to the rules and dealing with consequences?

Then, i simply stick to the rules...and yes, i enjoy the certainty that follows going by the books....to the point that i dont even consider that being hard on someone....




OR does "being hard on someone" involve shaming them?........

If so, then absolutely fucking NOT. That's shitty as fuck. Along with unproductive. Plus we get enough of that from our parents to deal with for a lifetime...

 

[Auto/Virtuosi=L.A.P.]

The issue for me, and from what I can see, for several others as well is that you equated assertiveness entirely with being "alpha", putting others down, etc. This is an idea that's personally distressing to me. I can understand taking pride in being a good manager, telling unpleasant truths without fear and pushing people to better themselves. But profiting at the expense of putting people down and calling it "assertive" bugs me and strikes me as insecure behavior. I don't think ego/feeling good about oneself should be a zero sum game. That is what bugged me about your OP (not your title, just the OP) and I reacted to it.

"Assertiveness" and "meekness" were just placeholders, an analogical device, meant to look at what you were implying by belittling the act of 'putting others in place'/'alpha behavior'/etc... I don't believe they are interchangeable with assertion, but I know it is an assertive quality. That's as far as it goes. Putting people down alleges that putting people in "their place" means below the originator. We all have the same place far as I'm concerned. I just see people disregarding it. Conditioning plays a role, too. I can't help that.

We're all insecure, which is why concepts of security, friendship, love and so on mean so much. In a perfect world self-worth wouldn't be at all like that, but people are...complicated, because, let's face it, people treat it exactly like a zero sum game on differing levels. I'm fine with you having an opinion, but I had a different end in mind for this thread.

Being hard on people? Absolutely. Keeping people in their place? Not so much. If you can't see the difference, think about it.

We should compare what we think people's place is. I think many are taking it as some undesirable place, but if everyone has the same place, then what's the issue? It's the ones who demand more that get flippant. As for being hard on people, one can choose whatever qualities they like to focus this upon, right? For me that's their hypocrisy, among other things.

 

[Bush]

This is too ironic. You're picking a grouping of people to chastise as if to declare their worth is beneath others', yet you're the one with moral integrity? This is exactly what I'm talking about. While you're out there playing the "righteous guy" you're among they that forget their place amongst everyone else as an equally self-entitled human being. I run into it all the damned time. When you get it right back don't forget you asked for it.

No, I think the actions and mindset behind that perspective are pathetic, not the people who believe, embody or act upon them.

There's a huge difference. I'm not keeping anyone in any place.

Hell, if I'm trying to keep anything 'in place,' it's ideas. The idea of taking pleasure out of 'keeping people in a place' belongs in the dumpster.

 

[Auto/Virtuosi=L.A.P.]

As an 8w7 and an Fi user, the idea of "keeping someone in their place" is still pretty foreign to me. Fi doesn't work in terms of strict hierarchies in the same way that Fe does.

It doesn't? I'm under the impression that Feeling is basically foresight on what keeps people one cares about inclusive rather than exclusive. Introversion and Extraversion are just different ways of thinking about it. Both Fi and Fe know what they value and what they do not. I digress. I see this "keep in place" stuff as humans interacting with each other rather than anything typology noticeably influences.

If I'm truly "alpha", then that position is by dent of superior ability or experience. If you can come at me and take it from me, then by all means. To see it otherwise is, at best, circular.

I see it the same way. If there's any difference it's just in how I choose to express this. My tactic is to prevent people from causing a problem before and after they consider it.

I've always struggled with Fe need to know "where it stands" relatively speaking. To an Fi user, it comes off as very weak, and the means that Fe users employ to extract information about where they stand within a social hierarchy, or reinforce their understanding of such, are almost instinctually distasteful. Aggression on the part of Fi users is almost always because they feel something personal to them has been violated, which I could see as coming off as spoiled and self-centered from the Fe perspective. When those lines have been crossed, we usually go for scorched earth. The point that we try to make is less, "Know your place, peasant." As, "It should be known that anyone who crosses this line again will be fucking decimated."

Yeah, cognitive functions don't seem as involved to me. My Fe doesn't have me seek to label my environment into unequivocal categories. I just observe what successfully obtains certain results (like mannerisms, gestures and ways to cooperate) and reinforce it to my liking. If Fe were so encroaching as you'd described, we'd all have traumatic anxiety every day, because we, and no-one, can truly control our environment. Fe and Fi alike aren't capable and don't try to more than the other. They just think of ways to get a desired social outcome through watching others' behaviors. Extraversion replicates what it sees and Introversion reinvents what it sees.

It's not pretty, and rarely scores political points. But yes, to answer your question, the Fi-version of putting someone in their place can be very pleasurable. No question. I think the Fi-doms and aux's get a little more unsettled by it, though. They can be sweet like that.

Looking at putting someone in one's place as protecting oneself from harm others are willing to cause you, one can technically put someone in whatever place they desire so long as it means they aren't tormented anymore. It doesn't mean the place is that of a punching bag. It can be that of someone having more humility, like...teaching one not to speak out of turn, and either Fe or Fi can do that. There is more than one connotation to the "put-in place" phrase.

 

[Auto/Virtuosi=L.A.P.]

Does being hard on someone mean sticking to the rules and dealing with consequences?

Then, i simply stick to the rules...and yes, i enjoy the certainty that follows going by the books....to the point that i dont even consider that being hard on someone....




OR does "being hard on someone" involve shaming them?........

If so, then absolutely fucking NOT. That's shitty as fuck. Along with unproductive. Plus we get enough of that from our parents to deal with for a lifetime...

We're talking about people that mean to do you harm, and you defending yourself. I don't think there's any other reason to enjoy conflict with others. Whether one enjoys shaming predators or sticking to the rules of, say, "being honest" despite others' dishonesty, the same idea of superiority is in play. Either of these acts have seriously screwed people up emotionally, so I tend not to think much on the differences.

Randomly shaming people just for sport, though? If it's done, I don't care, but it had better not be done to me. Besides, it's a two-way street. If you shame one who shames, you're no different.

No, I think the actions and mindset behind that perspective are pathetic, not the people who believe, embody or act upon them.

There's a huge difference. I'm not keeping anyone in any place.

Hell, if I'm trying to keep anything 'in place,' it's ideas. The idea of taking pleasure out of 'keeping people in a place' belongs in the dumpster.

Wait, what place exactly? What do you think of when one "keeps people in their place"? I feel like the assumption is that the 'place' is a threat to people who don't have it coming, and so they feel like this is about bullying. I just feel like anybody technically could have it coming. Not everybody.

 

[EcK]

Where did I say I don't like conflict? I said I don't enjoy being hard on a person. Not the same thing.

Aren't you into whipping people and stuff?

 

[Bush]

Wait, what place exactly? What do you think of when one "keeps people in their place"?

I assumed that we were going with keeping people in their place "like an alpha" does; the connotation being that the 'place' is 'away from' or 'lower than' in status, influence, etc.

I feel like the assumption is that the 'place' is a threat to people who don't have it coming, and so they feel like this is about bullying. I just feel like anybody technically could have it coming. Not everybody.

I have no idea how to parse this.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

Only in bed ...

Or when my values are not respected or I feel there is some lies in the air : I become a real devil advocate to understand what happens.

Then I'll decide if I can tolerate them or ...be hard again until the person is tired of my behaviour.

 

[fetus]

I'm only hard on people under extreme stress. The pressure builds, the situation tightens, and I snap into military-like rigidity. Generally, I'm a wishy-washy, spineless softie. I'm working on it.

 

[ceecee]

Aren't you into whipping people and stuff?

All that "stuff" is consensual and discussed in advance. Not quite the same as what we are discussing in this thread.

 

[EcK]

All that "stuff" is consensual and discussed in advance. Not quite the same as what we are discussing in this thread.

Isn't that the same as saying you don't enjoy feeding people you only enjoy feeding people when they agree to be fed. The second is a sub group of the first.
I don't mean that as an attqck of any sort I'm curious.i mean i get how the two are not the same.me enjoying sex doesn't mean i m going to rape people but if nobody liked sex i dont think yhey d go about raping people for no reason (though i get that rape is about power but its still linked to sexuality)

Ps: im not equating it to rape its just the first example that popped into my mind. Entps. Ya know

 

[BadOctopus]

If someone is doing something wrong, or being incompetent or a jerk and they need to be set straight, I don't have a problem with confronting them. I don't enjoy being hard on people, but I don't believe in coddling them, either, because treating them with kid gloves just undermines the seriousness of what they're doing. But you don't have to decimate their self-esteem, either. It's best just to speak plainly, without mincing words.

 

[prplchknz]

it's how you do it, i've had people be hard on me when i was failing a task and instead of them helping me they just were jerks i still was unable to do thing and felt ten times worse. because not only was not getting what i was suppose to be doing but i had been made to feel like a terrible person so it end up being i suck if i try and i suck if i don't try. sometimes my emotions will come out very inoppurtune times, and i'll try to stop them but can't so if someone tells me to stop crying i'll probably cry more even though i want to stop because i didn't want to cry in the first place so yeah be careful. in those situations i want to be left alone and people talking to me make it worse. and yes i've tried to be able to not but it doesn't work i don't know why it doesn't but it doesn't so fuck you go away and mind your own business asshole. and no it's not making excuses if i'm trying my hardest. i'm done with humanity because of people like that.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

I enjoy being hard on people. First it was scary telling people they were wrong and broken and needed a strong authoritarian figure in their lives to lead them back to the straight and narrow, but now it comes naturally. When my gf leaves her shoes lying around I'm always the first to trip over them. She comes home, I grab her by the hair before she has a chance to mutter "hello" and I drag her to various piles of shoes and rub her face in it until she cries. It usually works for a few months before she starts getting lazy again, but yeah, if you see someone doing something wrong, or something you don't like, it's best to use all of your powers of manipulation, including the physical kind, to make sure the problem is corrected. I don't see anything wrong with it and you shouldn't either.