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[sx] Why are sx-doms so common in typology communities?

lue

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I guess I'd ask sx 4s how they'd describe their envy being open & even shameless, their competitiveness, & their making others "suffer", etc. I still fancy myself as more contained, although I "endure silently" far less.

Just a little background: I'm not a 4, but it is my heart fix, so I'm not sure this will help. Also, a little background, I typed myself as sp first, and as "alluring" as sx may be, there was a lot of shame around that instinct for me at first. So at first I went with what is the easiest thing for me to do (which is sp)---I actually feel the same about 4 as a heart fix, I don't want to be that at all.

Nonetheless, envy and competitiveness are nowhere near open for me. It could be my 9 core, it could not be. Making others suffer is something that is completely foreign to me. But if I get down to the nitty gritty of things, underneath the years I've tried to better myself, and beyond my logic, there is a huge possibility that it's there.

I've always said "I don't compete," ( I really don't). But maybe part of the reason "I don't compete" is because I do have a competitive streak and it is disgusting/shameful to me.

I've had too much wine.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I found these subtype descriptions (from Enneagram history and theory | The Enneagram in BusinessThe Enneagram in Business) and while they tend to be 'more of the same' as far as not discussing how the dominant instinct affects the fixation, I think they are somewhat working in that direction.
Wow, thank you. That is a weirdly useful site. I just wish each were longer than 2-3 sentences, as though each human being's core patterns can be reduced to that (probably being close to 1 billion of each type on this planet). Yeah, they are moving in the right direction, though. Helen Palmer tries to do this as well, but doesn't write much more than a paragraph on each, either. MOAR RESEARCH.

I agree with you. I have found the instinct descriptions you speak of endlessly frustrating, particularly because of what you say. I'll find myself identifying and relating, (as I did with the self pres four description by Chestnut), but then something doesn't quite feel right- I'm guessing because I'm not a self pres dom- that's not what I ultimately prioritize.
That's exactly right. Like I said before, I'd be a social 4, but that's clearly not my core psychological pattern and "social" clearly has not been my primary driver in life. No matter how I temporarily feel when I read descriptions, some sort of "inner knowing" ultimately won't let me change my conclusions.
 

Such Irony

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I wonder how you managed to fit INFJs in there... Your whole self-defense seems to be pinned on INFJs' being as "bad" as yourself...or perhaps even worse... And are there more "real" INFJs like me around or has there been once?

Sx-doms are quite common in my country, predominantly in men but I've come across sx-dom women as well... Men are encouraged to act like ESxPs in my country so go figure...

I'd expect Sx-doms to be Se-doms (in particular) and also Ne-doms IRL... Se-aux and Ne-aux OTOH would have sp/sx flavor to them I guess...

How do the tests determine the variants does anyone know...? I guess pleasure\sensation seeking and enneagram types related to such drives would have a strong correlation with Sx variant...

Which country are you from?

I've seen SX doms throughout the type table. Less so with Si and Te doms. I've seen quite a few SX doms who are dominant Fi and Ni.

Not to beat the dead horse, but there is a lot of mistyping. In fact, I would argue that perhaps Sx is the most mistyped all personality types - even more than the dreaded N bias.

People have basically created this image of Sp being cold and fastidious, and So being sad and desperate. Who would want to be those, when you can be passionate and sensual? :rolleyes:

Hmmm. I see SP as being more self-reliant and security oriented. This does not necessarily translate to cold and fastidious, unless it's a really unbalanced SP with very little SO or SX. Also, how does sad and desperate relate to SO?
 

highlander

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We've only had Enneagram type in the user profile for a couple years. Here are the counts:

sp/sx - 166
sp - 85
sp/so - 69
320

so/sx - 63
so/sp - 43
so - 57
163

sx/sp - 164
sx - 100
sx/so - 92
356
 

SpankyMcFly

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Not to beat the dead horse, but there is a lot of mistyping. In fact, I would argue that perhaps Sx is the most mistyped all personality types - even more than the dreaded N bias.

People have basically created this image of Sp being cold and fastidious, and So being sad and desperate. Who would want to be those, when you can be passionate and sensual? :rolleyes:

This too ^
 

Zarathustra

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We've only had Enneagram type in the user profile for a couple years. Here are the counts:

sp/sx - 166
sp - 85
sp/so - 69
320

so/sx - 63
so/sp - 43
so - 57
163

sx/sp - 164
sx - 100
sx/so - 92
356

Interesting.

The sp vs so proportions are EXACTLY what I have always figured.

The sx dom representation, if my whole estimation is correct, is ~6x what it would be in the normal population, tho.
 

Elfboy

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@Gingko
frankly, I wish I was Sp first
that makes two of us. Sp doms are so much stronger and more independent most of the time (well, except of Sp 6s and Sp 2s. it's the opposite for them lol).
 

Qloshae

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And also because they're so neurotically obsessed about finding the perfect relationship, that they're trying to learn as much about themselves, as well as their most compatible partner, via typology.
This.

Suppose a lot could be mistypes tho as well.
Everyone wants our devotion. :p
 

HongDou

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Interesting.

The sp vs so proportions are EXACTLY what I have always figured.

The sx dom representation, if my whole estimation is correct, is ~6x what it would be in the normal population, tho.

Interesting that sx-lasts are the least common as well. I'm sure there's a reason for it, but it might also be that people would have an aversion to labeling themselves as sx-last.
 

Southern Kross

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Sorry the replies took so long. I was on holiday in Australia. :happy2:


Southern Kross,

Clueless n00b de-lurks to fire a photon (oh, all right, technically it's an electron) torpedo.
But now that I have observed it, it's behaving like a wave. :thinking:

I agree with you that one's Enneagram influences the outward appearance of one's instinctive stackings; the more so when the "leaning" of the instinctive stacking runs counter to the, err, the "stereotypical" bent of one's Enneagram: as for example an SO-dominant E9 INFP, or an SX-dominant E4 INFP.

I would suggest that the SX, while it can manifest in sexuality, often ends up manifesting as raw naked INTENSITY, and seeking fusion with another confidante or lover, the whole "soulmate" or "mindmate" thingy.
The SO, I would say, is not just "being social" or climbing the social ladder, but what Isaac Asimov attributed to the Kloros in the short story C-Chute : awareness of social groupings, of cliques, of political or friendship alliances. (Incidentally the last line of that story *really* ties into the SO instinct, though if you squint just right, you could make it apply to any instinctive stacking.)
For SP, I have a hard time matching it to anything but "prudence" and all that: of which the typical life-style manifestations *would* be food, money, safety - though, I'll gladly add to my fount of knowledge should anyone wish to correct me.

Thus spake the 5w4 SX/SP...
I agree for Sx and So (relatively speaking), but I'm with OA about the Sp definition. I'm going to be lame and quote my own definition from a previous thread (with some editing because it's kinda icky reading now):

Self-pres instinct
Driven by a sense of the fragility of one's own existence. Sp-doms are highly threatened by external elements they believe that may destabilise their ability to flourish. They fear that outside forces may erode their 'separateness' and gradually consume them. Their sense of body and identity is so indefinite they feel compelled to draw strong personal boundaries in which to protect themselves. They feel the need to actively fight to retain the cornerstones that are so precious to them. These may include: comfort, health, autonomy, dignity, privacy, strength/power, reliability, accuracy, reputation, knowledge, safety, individuality etc. Sp-doms seek to establish an environment of personal security and selfhood, which will enable them to thrive.

I don't know if this is 100% correct, but it seems to basically encapsulate what I've observed. What do you think [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]?

See, I've always seen any intensity in you as being out of a strong desire to establish a line in the sand with regards to your identity (eg. "this is what I'm not" or "this is what I won't put up with"). I think one of the major mistakes people make when it comes to the understanding the instincts is that they fail to take into account where the expression comes from. Sure, Sx is often associated with a passionate nature, but couldn't a Sp be passionate about protecting their personal boundaries? Passion and intensity aren't the foundation for the Sexual instinct; they are merely the resulting expressions of a strong desire for profound connection.

Hmmm. I see SP as being more self-reliant and security oriented. This does not necessarily translate to cold and fastidious, unless it's a really unbalanced SP with very little SO or SX. Also, how does sad and desperate relate to SO?
I don't think they relate to those things either but I see it in some of the attitudes toward typing, for example. People are very reluctant to see extroverted or fun loving people as potentially Sp-dom, but they can be just that. :shrug:

With So-doms there can be this perception that all they care about is impressing and appeasing others, either out of insecurity and/or out of a pathetic and desperate ambition to succeed. It's seen as uncool to care about what other people think - it's basically code for conformism and neediness.
 

OrangeAppled

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I agree for Sx and So (relatively speaking), but I'm with OA about the Sp definition. I'm going to be lame and quote my own definition from a previous thread (with some editing because it's kinda icky reading now):

Self-pres instinct
Driven by a sense of the fragility of one's own existence. Sp-doms are highly threatened by external elements they believe that may destabilise their ability to flourish. They fear that outside forces may erode their 'separateness' and gradually consume them. Their sense of body and identity is so indefinite they feel compelled to draw strong personal boundaries in which to protect themselves. They feel the need to actively fight to retain the cornerstones that are so precious to them. These may include: comfort, health, autonomy, dignity, privacy, strength/power, reliability, accuracy, reputation, knowledge, safety, individuality etc. Sp-doms seek to establish an environment of personal security and selfhood, which will enable them to thrive.

I don't know if this is 100% correct, but it seems to basically encapsulate what I've observed. What do you think [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]?

I think this is better, yes. I think that many so descriptions rightfully include how a strong so instinct can make someone shy or inhibited. I think sp descriptions do well to include how sp can make someone indulgent & reckless, which would appear opposite of seeking security or stability, but it's a security via autonomy via rejection of classic stability/security (which can be confining). Many things that others find to bring security can feel like it overwhelms me to maintain & even threatens my identity; it asks me to "conform" too much. To an absurd degree, I pursue a lifestyle in which I have very little accountability to any human. This is "security" to me, although I do not generally use that word or see it that way, because of its connotations being all wrong. The most threatening thing to my survival, which I experience as my individual identity, is to have to play by rules which ask me to be something I am not, to care about things I don't care about, to have my strengths devalued & asked to be repressed, etc. I recognize the immaturity here, but it also drives me to take care of myself 100% & to accept the bumps in the road in rejecting certain "securities". As sp, you are not necessarily responsible in the classic sense, but you take the responsibility, if that makes sense.

I have a difficult time asking for help from others. I don't want to be a burden, but I also have shame at needing help & fear of being indebted. Admitting I need not only help, but also friendship & love & human contact in general was a big thing for me, and although it began years ago, it's still a struggle with practicalities & even reaching out to friends. I feel like sx-dom are more comfortable with a dependance on others, even emotionally.


See, I've always seen any intensity in you as being out of a strong desire to establish a line in the sand with regards to your identity (eg. "this is what I'm not" or "this is what I won't put up with"). I think one of the major mistakes people make when it comes to the understanding the instincts is that they fail to take into account where the expression comes from. Sure, Sx is often associated with a passionate nature, but couldn't a Sp be passionate about protecting their personal boundaries? Passion and intensity aren't the foundation for the Sexual instinct; they are merely the resulting expressions of a strong desire for profound connection.

This is an astute observation, and I do agree. But I very much have an angry resentment that goes beyond my identity & is more classic 4 envy that others "have" what I long for, especially if I deem them less deserving somehow. But as I said, it's classic 4, which tends to look sx to those with a less refined eye for type.

I don't think they relate to those things either but I see it in some of the attitudes toward typing, for example. People are very reluctant to see extroverted or fun loving people as potentially Sp-dom, but they can be just that. :shrug:

Much of what people attribute to sx (which is like, everything) is really so & sp stuff, but if you add "passion" or "intensity" into it, then people think it's sx.
Passionate about interests, hobbies, and knowledge & like pursuing them independently? sp!
Want novel & intense sensory experiences? just as likely sp/sx as sx-dom
Want strong, enduring, personal & even intimate connections? so!
Repel or attract people strongly? Could be so, depending on if you've cracked their social code or have fumbled

With So-doms there can be this perception that all they care about is impressing and appeasing others, either out of insecurity and/or out of a pathetic and desperate ambition to succeed. It's seen as uncool to care about what other people think - it's basically code for conformism and neediness.

I have a different distortion of the so, which is that they are "magical". They have these skills & insights that I have difficulty comprehending the workings of. I know many suffer from social anxiety and inhibition & shyness, but they may even simply have an awareness & understanding of the world & its workings on a global level that is daunting to me. I admit, I often don't care, but when I do venture to peek into this part of life the manner of dissecting & making connections & predictions, etc, is impressively complex to me. I feel small-minded when I acknowledge my main preoccupations in life are finding a romantic soul mate & achieving the level of autonomy I feel I need to meet my ideals.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
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I think this is better, yes. I think that many so descriptions rightfully include how a strong so instinct can make someone shy or inhibited. I think sp descriptions do well to include how sp can make someone indulgent & reckless, which would appear opposite of seeking security or stability, but it's a security via autonomy via rejection of classic stability/security (which can be confining). Many things that others find to bring security can feel like it overwhelms me to maintain & even threatens my identity; it asks me to "conform" too much. To an absurd degree, I pursue a lifestyle in which I have very little accountability to any human. This is "security" to me, although I do not generally use that word or see it that way, because of its connotations being all wrong. The most threatening thing to my survival, which I experience as my individual identity, is to have to play by rules which ask me to be something I am not, to care about things I don't care about, to have my strengths devalued & asked to be repressed, etc. I recognize the immaturity here, but it also drives me to take care of myself 100% & to accept the bumps in the road in rejecting certain "securities". As sp, you are not necessarily responsible in the classic sense, but you take the responsibility, if that makes sense.

I have a difficult time asking for help from others. I don't want to be a burden, but I also have shame at needing help & fear of being indebted. Admitting I need not only help, but also friendship & love & human contact in general was a big thing for me, and although it began years ago, it's still a struggle with practicalities & even reaching out to friends. I feel like sx-dom are more comfortable with a dependance on others, even emotionally.
Oh, I very much agree. I realise "security" is a problematic word for it. It will only seem like security if you look at the core drive behind the expression, because, like you say, it can result in behaviour that will seem like anything but.

Thanks for the elaboration. It helps with understanding the mindset :) It's strange reading this. I recognise a lot of that stuff in myself, having Sp second in my stacking, but it's hard to pick up on it directly because So is just that much 'louder' - it's there but it gets a little drowned out.

This is an astute observation, and I do agree. But I very much have an angry resentment that goes beyond my identity & is more classic 4 envy that others "have" what I long for, especially if I deem them less deserving somehow. But as I said, it's classic 4, which tends to look sx to those with a less refined eye for type.
Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that it was the only factor. 4s certainly have an Sx flavour to them regardless of instinctual stacking.

It does come back to factoring in type in combination with and opposition to the instincts.

Much of what people attribute to sx (which is like, everything) is really so & sp stuff, but if you add "passion" or "intensity" into it, then people think it's sx.
Passionate about interests, hobbies, and knowledge & like pursuing them independently? sp!
Want novel & intense sensory experiences? just as likely sp/sx as sx-dom
Want strong, enduring, personal & even intimate connections? so!
Repel or attract people strongly? Could be so, depending on if you've cracked their social code or have fumbled
Agreed. :yes:

I have a different distortion of the so, which is that they are "magical". They have these skills & insights that I have difficulty comprehending the workings of. I know many suffer from social anxiety and inhibition & shyness, but they may even simply have an awareness & understanding of the world & its workings on a global level that is daunting to me. I admit, I often don't care, but when I do venture to peek into this part of life the manner of dissecting & making connections & predictions, etc, is impressively complex to me. I feel small-minded when I acknowledge my main preoccupations in life are finding a romantic soul mate & achieving the level of autonomy I feel I need to meet my ideals.
Interesting. Do you feel like you might be missing out on something that's not even on your radar, or is it just that it's more of an obstacle to getting on with things?
 

grey_beard

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"I feel small-minded when I acknowledge my main preoccupations in life are finding a romantic soul mate & achieving the level of autonomy I feel I need to meet my ideals. "
[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] -- You're *NORMAL*, D@mmit. Other people simply have lower standards, and so meet those standards more easily. :doh:
 

SD45T-2

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With So-doms there can be this perception that all they care about is impressing and appeasing others, either out of insecurity and/or out of a pathetic and desperate ambition to succeed. It's seen as uncool to care about what other people think - it's basically code for conformism and neediness.
I can be pretty antisocial and misanthropic, probably because I'm a 1 and have no Fe. :D

I have a different distortion of the so, which is that they are "magical".
:wizfreak:

They have these skills & insights that I have difficulty comprehending the workings of. I know many suffer from social anxiety and inhibition & shyness, but they may even simply have an awareness & understanding of the world & its workings on a global level that is daunting to me.
Perhaps [MENTION=9273]Vasilisa[/MENTION] can comment on this. Pretty please? :puppy_dog_eyes:
 

HongDou

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[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] (just to contribute to the discussion I'm seeing) :D

The issue I have with the way a lot of people describe social-doms and the social instinct is that it just doesn't seem to measure up to sp and sx descriptions. Not saying that sp and sx are described as "better" but that the sp and sx descriptions actually seem to discuss more the priorities of those instincts than the way they perceive their surroundings. Otoh, the social instinct just seems to be described as an "awareness" of how interpersonal dynamics are functioning in your surroundings and what things represent in a broader social context. I get how that can be prioritized (just as much as how I get sp creates an awareness of what your body wants, what needs to be done to ensure "security," etc), but the "core drive" of it doesn't seem to be touched on as much as the other two. I often see descriptions saying the social variant desires a sense of belonging, community, social alliances, etc but that just doesn't sound completely accurate to me. :thinking: I like creating new connections and bonding with people, the feeling of being included and having close friends to make me feel connected, and I do see that as one of my driving forces but the "awareness" that gets discussed is something I either sometimes have or other times completely lack. I forget to check in with others a lot, I really neglect how my actions impact my environment when taking action, and I kind of don't really scan my social environment at all sometimes. It doesn't seem to be something that really burdens my mind or anything, but at the same time I feel a lot more lighter and cordial for sx/so, and I seem to have more healthier attitude towards the sx instinct (at least in my mind anyway) so I'm not sure! I feel like the social instinct needs a lot of clarification haha.

[MENTION=13646]Haven[/MENTION] [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] I summon thee too.
 

EJCC

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[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] I dunno -- sometimes I have a hard time separating the social instinct from extroversion and from SJ, in terms of how I operate. Some social-last folks on the forum have described to me that they see social-firsts as having a network of "backup" people, almost. I suspect with so/sp it'd almost be like networking, with a system of friendly acquaintances, and with so/sx -- the "best friend" -- it'd be a system of pals. Either way, those people serve as a form of insulation, to keep them from feeling lonely and isolated from the community/group/world.

Also, remember that conversation we had about so/sx and curating their own group, from their favorite people in the groups they're a part of? There's that too -- essentially picking people out to serve as your human shield, your group security.

This is what I'd presume, anyway. You'd be better off waiting on [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] to answer -- someone less extroverted and SJ.
 

grey_beard

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(snip)
But when I read sp 4 descriptions, it talks nothing of food, money, safety, etc, in terms of security or responsibility. And I'd hardly call myself "prudent". I've read sp 4 descriptions about impulsively quitting jobs & spending money on impractical things they can't afford, etc. It's almost more like "counter self-preservation" if you take the sp instinct in the most literal sense; instead, it's a preservation of the emotional state - the fixation of envy, the frustration born of longing. It also involves what I call "self-soothing", almost like self-medicating, but with luxuries & indulgences as consolation prizes for being "unfulfilled" in life. The sp 4 is called reckless, independent, & tenacious.
(snip)

(snip)
I agree for Sx and So (relatively speaking), but I'm with OA about the Sp definition. I'm going to be lame and quote my own definition from a previous thread (with some editing because it's kinda icky reading now):



I don't know if this is 100% correct, but it seems to basically encapsulate what I've observed. What do you think [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]?


See, I've always seen any intensity in you as being out of a strong desire to establish a line in the sand with regards to your identity (eg. "this is what I'm not" or "this is what I won't put up with"). I think one of the major mistakes people make when it comes to the understanding the instincts is that they fail to take into account where the expression comes from. Sure, Sx is often associated with a passionate nature, but couldn't a Sp be passionate about protecting their personal boundaries? Passion and intensity aren't the foundation for the Sexual instinct; they are merely the resulting expressions of a strong desire for profound connection.

(snip>

I think this is better, yes. I think that many so descriptions rightfully include how a strong so instinct can make someone shy or inhibited. I think sp descriptions do well to include how sp can make someone indulgent & reckless, which would appear opposite of seeking security or stability, but it's a security via autonomy via rejection of classic stability/security (which can be confining). Many things that others find to bring security can feel like it overwhelms me to maintain & even threatens my identity; it asks me to "conform" too much. To an absurd degree, I pursue a lifestyle in which I have very little accountability to any human. This is "security" to me, although I do not generally use that word or see it that way, because of its connotations being all wrong. The most threatening thing to my survival, which I experience as my individual identity, is to have to play by rules which ask me to be something I am not, to care about things I don't care about, to have my strengths devalued & asked to be repressed, etc. I recognize the immaturity here, but it also drives me to take care of myself 100% & to accept the bumps in the road in rejecting certain "securities". As sp, you are not necessarily responsible in the classic sense, but you take the responsibility, if that makes sense.

I have a difficult time asking for help from others. I don't want to be a burden, but I also have shame at needing help & fear of being indebted. Admitting I need not only help, but also friendship & love & human contact in general was a big thing for me, and although it began years ago, it's still a struggle with practicalities & even reaching out to friends. I feel like sx-dom are more comfortable with a dependance on others, even emotionally.




This is an astute observation, and I do agree. But I very much have an angry resentment that goes beyond my identity & is more classic 4 envy that others "have" what I long for, especially if I deem them less deserving somehow. But as I said, it's classic 4, which tends to look sx to those with a less refined eye for type.



Much of what people attribute to sx (which is like, everything) is really so & sp stuff, but if you add "passion" or "intensity" into it, then people think it's sx.
Passionate about interests, hobbies, and knowledge & like pursuing them independently? sp!
Want novel & intense sensory experiences? just as likely sp/sx as sx-dom
Want strong, enduring, personal & even intimate connections? so!
Repel or attract people strongly? Could be so, depending on if you've cracked their social code or have fumbled

(snip)

I think I got it.
SX = "intensity, applied to interests, or soulmate/mindmate, or sex"
SP = "preservation not of the body, but of the mind, soul, and *self* (chosen or desired identity)"
SO = "knowledge of all social relations and communications and groupings, and now to navigate and/or use them in support of the other stackings' goals"

That wasn't so difficult after all.
(Seems my 40 HP kitchen blender got jammed after all. Too many other topics input into the feed over the past couple of weeks!)

Thanks to [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] for tremendous insights!
 
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