Interacting with Social first Extraverts

[Qlip]

It seems like inevitably, once the novelty wears off, that I'm just another human resource for them to manage. Sometimes this is okay, sometimes it isn't.

Anybody else encounter this?

 

[Kasper]

Nope

Do explain what you mean though.

And while you're explaining, please explain your understanding of So.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Do explain what you mean though.

And while you're explaining, please explain your understanding of So.

I'd like to second this motion. I'm curious what others perceive So to be/mean.

 

[Qlip]

Ehhh.. now that I think of it, mostly it's all because I'm being downgraded from being a romantic interest. The whole thing confuses this ENFP, mostly because it seems like during the SO courting process that I've been involved in, it's always been in the guise of friendliness and group activity, so I don't quite get why that can't just resume in similar form after its ended. But it always ends up that I'm on a third tier social calendar, and it bothers me that the 'friend' part was never really about being friends.

But, it seems like they want to keep you on some list somewhere anyway, like on some sort of back burner or something. This is alien to me, mostly because friends to me are people who have a regular and persistent presence. Everyone else is just... everyone else to me.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

But, it seems like they want to keep you on some list somewhere anyway, like on some sort of back burner or something. This is alien to me, mostly because friends to me are people who have a regular and persistent presence. Everyone else is just... everyone else to me.

I'll speak for myself as an So dom. I am loathe to burn bridges. I can and have done so though. A part of me always tries to keep things impersonal with a person I might not otherwise like in order to keep open a line, or a potential line of communication. Circumstances change and people change their minds or have a change of "heart", myself included. Burned bridges tends to remove this "option".

 

[skylights]

I'm not sure I totally understand the situation... but as far as I do grasp, I'm not really sure I understand the perceived slight. If there was chemistry between you two, but then something happened and it's not there anymore, and she's been less attentive to you, doesn't that seem like a sort of natural thing to have happened? If she wanted you two to get closer while you were courting, she naturally would have moved you to the top of her priority list and devoted extra time and energy to you. But if that became an obvious inevitability for whatever reason, then it seems natural for her to not prioritize you as much anymore. It doesn't seem hurtful to me. Each of us only has so much energy to spend. We don't really have any choice but to play the resource management game.

it bothers me that the 'friend' part was never really about being friends.

At least for me, there is a very fine - sometimes nonexistent - line between friend and romantic interest. Obviously there are some friends I would not date because I am not attracted to them, but there are others I am genuine friends with and would consider, were I in a position to be courting and they were as well. Basically I hang out with people whom I enjoy, and I don't often make much of a mental separation between "friend" and "potential love interest". It's just that "potential love interest" has to meet a number of more stringent requirements... perhaps I should put it this way: if you are a potential love interest, you already automatically qualify as friend. So I could be wrong, but for this reason, I don't suspect she was "faking".

It also occurs to me that at least for myself, friendships are slow-builds. I take a while to get to be friends with someone, though flirting is immediate. So perhaps she does not see the two of you as being quite as close friendship-wise as you see it. There may also be some hurt on her part. It is hard to go back to seeing another person as "just friends" when you have had a crush on someone!

But, it seems like they want to keep you on some list somewhere anyway, like on some sort of back burner or something. This is alien to me, mostly because friends to me are people who have a regular and persistent presence. Everyone else is just... everyone else to me.

I echo [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] on this one. I don't do much bridge-burning. Things change and burned bridges are too permanent. I like to just let things fade gracefully, maybe checking in on each other once in a while. I actually used to be much more hurt by people "fading away" as a child, but I have come mostly to terms with it. We only have so much time and energy to devote to so many people, so we try our best to create the ideal combination of energy usage. For the people who don't make it, it's not personal. It's just that I have so many people and so little time. It is that way for everyone, so I don't hold it against others and I don't expect them to hold it against me, but I do hope that someday our lives may be positioned so that we can enjoy time together.

I would be happy to mull more on the situation if you can provide a bit more detail.

 

[Qlip]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]

I guess I didn't really mention a situation, because I was talking in general... except I'm not. I actually have one situation on my mind and I'm evaluating it based on a Frankensteinien composite ExFP SO woman I have in my head. The actual facts are completely different for each situation.. EXCEPT for the whole feeling like I'm being managed as an object at some point. I know this sounds like normal social protocol, but.. check out my instinctual stacking.

Anyway, thanks for answering. I can't really give details on an internet forum, just doesn't seem right.

 

[skylights]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]

I guess I didn't really mention a situation, because I was talking in general... except I'm not. I actually have one situation on my mind and I'm evaluating it based on a Frankensteinien composite ExFP SO woman I have in my head. The actual facts are completely different for each situation.. EXCEPT for the whole feeling like I'm being managed as an object at some point. I know this sounds like normal social protocol, but.. check out my instinctual stacking.

Anyway, thanks for answering. I can't really give details on an internet forum, just doesn't seem right.

That's ok, I understand. Some things I don't like sharing, either.

I guess my only further comment is try to understand that being "managed" doesn't make you any less human or important in a Social-dom's mind. It is more a conceptualization of our own resources than a conceptualization of you. The people in my life are what I value most and I appreciate each person on a very individual level, which is one of the reasons I struggle so much to limit my time and energy with them. I wish I had infinite time and energy for everyone. My schedule book is just my way of dealing with the world at large, and people fall under that category too.

As always, I could be wrong - but I think they would probably feel bad if they knew you felt mistreated in this way.

 

[EJCC]

I'll speak for myself as an So dom. I am loathe to burn bridges. I can and have done so though. A part of me always tries to keep things impersonal with a person I might not otherwise like in order to keep open a line, or a potential line of communication. Circumstances change and people change their minds or have a change of "heart", myself included. Burned bridges tends to remove this "option".

^ This.

Small, personal example: I had a falling out with a friend a while back, but kept her my friend on Facebook. Can't envision a time when I'll want to really be her friend again, but I do still care about her, and she's a good person, so I want to keep that option open. Plus: that's a sign to her that I DO still care about her, despite everything. (And we have so many mutual friends, that it would be incredibly awkward if I burned that bridge.)

I'm not sure I totally understand the situation... but as far as I do grasp, I'm not really sure I understand the perceived slight. If there was chemistry between you two, but then something happened and it's not there anymore, and she's been less attentive to you, doesn't that seem like a sort of natural thing to have happened? If she wanted you two to get closer while you were courting, she naturally would have moved you to the top of her priority list and devoted extra time and energy to you. But if that became an obvious inevitability for whatever reason, then it seems natural for her to not prioritize you as much anymore. It doesn't seem hurtful to me. Each of us only has so much energy to spend. We don't really have any choice but to play the resource management game.

At least for me, there is a very fine - sometimes nonexistent - line between friend and romantic interest. Obviously there are some friends I would not date because I am not attracted to them, but there are others I am genuine friends with and would consider, were I in a position to be courting and they were as well. Basically I hang out with people whom I enjoy, and I don't often make much of a mental separation between "friend" and "potential love interest". It's just that "potential love interest" has to meet a number of more stringent requirements... perhaps I should put it this way: if you are a potential love interest, you already automatically qualify as friend. So I could be wrong, but for this reason, I don't suspect she was "faking".

^ This too.

It's also worth mentioning that seeing how you act in a group situation, with her mutual friends, is a bit of a test. I've done that exact thing. The one-on-one sx thing is not always a good judge of character, but seeing how you interact with others is a much better one. (Similar to the test re: how they treat servers at restaurants.)

Also, if she was looking for something casual, it may have made her life a lot easier if she could push the "friend time" and "romantic time" circles a bit closer on her relationship venn diagram.

The actual facts are completely different for each situation.. EXCEPT for the whole feeling like I'm being managed as an object at some point. I know this sounds like normal social protocol, but.. check out my instinctual stacking.

Damn... That rings true. I can totally see how my extroveted social-first behavior could come across that way. Maybe it IS managing people as objects.

I guess I can try to describe it this way (speaking for Exxx so/sx but likely not for Exxx so/sp): We want to be there for EVERYBODY. We want to interact with the WORLD, in a sense. And like skylights said, we only have so much energy. Meaning, we often have to put up strict boundaries with the people we don't have the energy saved up for -- even if we really, really like those people. I can't even count the number of people I absolutely adore, but who I just can't spend time on/with. It frustrates me to no end. In a perfect world, I'd have a gazillion more close friends than I do. But I just can't.

 

[Qlip]

^ This.

Small, personal example: I had a falling out with a friend a while back, but kept her my friend on Facebook. Can't envision a time when I'll want to really be her friend again, but I do still care about her, and she's a good person, so I want to keep that option open. Plus: that's a sign to her that I DO still care about her, despite everything. (And we have so many mutual friends, that it would be incredibly awkward if I burned that bridge.)


^ This too.

It's also worth mentioning that seeing how you act in a group situation, with her mutual friends, is a bit of a test. I've done that exact thing. The one-on-one sx thing is not always a good judge of character, but seeing how you interact with others is a much better one. (Similar to the test re: how they treat servers at restaurants.)

Also, if she was looking for something casual, it may have made her life a lot easier if she could push the "friend time" and "romantic time" circles a bit closer on her relationship venn diagram.

I'm not talking about anybody in particular.. I just happen to post this wondering out of the blue random about things that have occurred to me sometime in the past, having nothing at all to do with the present.. NOTHING (Along with the one-on-one. I am pleased to announce that I pass social tests, in my own way; I am ENFP after all. The biggest problems I run into are seeming too intimate with friends, sometimes. I counter act this by attempting to spread it around in a gender neutral way, which mostly causes amusement in any so/sx.)

Damn... That rings true. I can totally see how my extroveted social-first behavior could come across that way. Maybe it IS managing people as objects.

I guess I can try to describe it this way (speaking for Exxx so/sx but likely not for Exxx so/sp): We want to be there for EVERYBODY. We want to interact with the WORLD, in a sense. And like skylights said, we only have so much energy. Meaning, we often have to put up strict boundaries with the people we don't have the energy saved up for -- even if we really, really like those people. I can't even count the number of people I absolutely adore, but who I just can't spend time on/with. It frustrates me to no end. In a perfect world, I'd have a gazillion more close friends than I do. But I just can't.

The thing is that to me, this is just a matter of nuance. It's the whole avoidance-of-social-awkwardness thing that acts as an irritant to me. In anybody that I want to spend time with, I require a certain amount of honesty mixed with empathy for what my expectations are, which I try to make clear with my own way of interacting. An invite from a friend that I am on the rocks with to some event where we would just happen to be at the same venue to me smacks of disrespect. From their perspective it may seem like a token to show they care, but for me it feels like they think I have nothing better to do than to bask in their social company from 20 foot away.

I also have a tendency to want to react very badly to being managed. I'm just ornery, and it turns out very bad if I don't keep myself in check. I'm an ENFP, and I know how to test boundaries, and it's my natural inclination just to make everybody as uncomfortable as hell. On the flip side, if someone just tells me, "Look, Qlip. I care for you, but I just need time before we resume our friendship.", then my heart swells with admiration because that shows care to me and I back off. It takes investment to be blunt.

Of course if we had no particularly strong connection in the first place, and I find you're managing me, I get intrigued and play with boundaries.

EDIT: oops, I'm actually sp/sx.. gotta change the profile..

 

[EJCC]

I'm not talking about anybody in particular.. I just happen to post this wondering out of the blue random about things that have occurred to me sometime in the past, having nothing at all to do with the present.. NOTHING

I know -- you mentioned that before to skylights -- but I'm using examples same as you are. They all can apply to the general.

The thing is that to me, this is just a matter of nuance. It's the whole avoidance-of-social-awkwardness thing that acts as an irritant to me. In anybody that I want to spend time with, I require a certain amount of honesty mixed with empathy for what my expectations are, which I try to make clear with my own way of interacting. An invite from a friend that I am on the rocks with to some event where we would just happen to be at the same venue to me smacks of disrespect. From their perspective it may seem like a token to show they care, but for me it feels like they think I have nothing better to do than to bask in their social company from 20 foot away.

Whereas I would probably see it as disrespectful if that same person DIDN'T invite me. Or at least it would hurt my feelings a bit, because it would mean that they didn't care about me the way I still cared about them. Instinctual variant related communication breakdowns for the win?

I also have a tendency to want to react very badly to being managed. I'm just ornery, and it turns out very bad if I don't keep myself in check. I'm an ENFP, and I know how to test boundaries, and it's my natural inclination just to make everybody as uncomfortable as hell. On the flip side, if someone just tells me, "Look, Qlip. I care for you, but I just need time before we resume our friendship.", then my heart swells with admiration because that shows care to me and I back off. It takes investment to be blunt.

But what are they supposed to do AFTER they say that? Just ignore you until they decided they want to fully immerse themselves in your friendship again?

(Asking in part to figure out what to do re: the friend I mentioned)

 

[Qlip]

I know -- you mentioned that before to skylights -- but I'm using examples same as you are. They all can apply to the general.

I was trying to be overly protesting there.

Whereas I would probably see it as disrespectful if that same person DIDN'T invite me. Or at least it would hurt my feelings a bit, because it would mean that they didn't care about me the way I still cared about them. Instinctual variant related communication breakdowns for the win?

It would seem so. On a level, I appreciate an invite, but the whole social aspect of a party or whatever isn't necessarily enough to make it worth my effort, depends on what's going on and the people there, etc. But in certain cases an invite feels like an empty gesture.

But what are they supposed to do AFTER they say that? Just ignore you until they decided they want to fully immerse themselves in your friendship again?

(Asking in part to figure out what to do re: the friend I mentioned)

I'm probably a very idiosyncratic person, but I suppose there's a chance in hell I could at least represent my type. I don't know. The thing is, as an SP, I'm very protective of my resources. It relaxes me to degree to know where they should be spent and being clear about it is something I really appreciate. I miss on finer social cues, and that has a lot to do with why I tend to push boundaries, they tell me more about what's going on, and I get a clarity from baring the real situation.

For me, the best way to show you care is just to check up every once in a while, share some info, by text or whatever. Distance can be maintained in tone and in space, but care is shown satisfactorily to me by just showing that I'm on your mind occasionally, up until the point that you think some sort of friendship can be fully expressed. But, I could see how this may not work with everybody, but maybe those people are best left alone.

 

[thoughtlost]

*shrugs* for me, an So dom, it depends on YOUR own feelings, really. I don't generally initiate interaction (I can ...it happens), but if I do or if you do and you do a lot of confiding in me and you start to feel close to me, I will let that be. I don't think I would dump you to chase after someone else who is more interesting ...but at the same time, I never expected or tried to build a relationship with you or anyone for that matter. If a meaningful relationship happens ...then it just happens with what feels like little effort on my part because you probably intrigue me a lot, like a really really really good movie. But most likely, we're in a relationship because YOU don't care that I act like a fucking maniac. Also, ...I am lazy as hell; I don't care to be like "I really appreciate you and I want to invest in a relationship with you ...so ask me how I am doing once in a while or and I'll invite you to a party so we can spend time together and share experiences together"

...Oh and another thing to note: if you invite me to dinner... I would go to dinner with almost anyone... so yes, you'll be disappointed once you realize that I am only hanging out with you because it's fun to wonder the streets and eat Korean food, not because I truly care to spend time with you specifically.

I can see how it seems like an So dom and extrovert may be leading you on because I am chill and friendly/sparkly with anyone ...it's never indicative of where you stand with me.

 

[Qlip]

*shrugs* for me, an So dom, it depends on YOUR own feelings, really. I don't generally initiate interaction (I can ...it happens), but if I do or if you do and you do a lot of confiding in me and you start to feel close to me, I will let that be. I don't think I would dump you to chase after someone else who is more interesting ...but at the same time, I never expected or tried to build a relationship with you or anyone for that matter. If a meaningful relationship happens ...then it just happens with what feels like little effort on my part because you probably intrigue me a lot, like a really really really good movie. But most likely, we're in a relationship because YOU don't care that I act like a fucking maniac. Also, ...I am lazy as hell; I don't care to be like "I really appreciate you and I want to invest in a relationship with you ...so ask me how I am doing once in a while or and I'll invite you to a party so we can spend time together and share experiences together"

...Oh and another thing to note: if you invite me to dinner... I would go to dinner with almost anyone... so yes, you'll be disappointed once you realize that I am only hanging out with you because it's fun to wonder the streets and eat Korean food, not because I truly care to spend time with you specifically.

I can see how it seems like an So dom and extrovert may be leading you on because I am chill and friendly/sparkly with anyone ...it's never indicative of where you stand with me.

Nah, I never felt like anybody was leading me on. I'm good at sensing real connection. I don't respond to apathy and I disdain false apathy, enough that I wouldn't feel strongly enough to wonder about such a 'relationship'. No offense, but it sounds like you have some serious defenses up.

 

[skylights]

It's the whole avoidance-of-social-awkwardness thing that acts as an irritant to me.

This is interesting to me. Why? I don't like tit-for-tat social games, or cliqueyness, or other such middle school behavior, but I feel like I generally try to avoid situations that are likely to be unpleasant - 3rd wheel, very different politics at a politically-charged time of year, exes, etc. Is it the aspect of someone else "pre-selecting" your situation for you that is bothersome?

I am mulling on how I deal with social awkwardness and gatherings... I think in general I try to be reasonably kind but avoidant when I do not like people... I prefer to avoid awkwardness altogether and if I am in charge I will try to arrange it so that others do not have to deal with awkwardness unless they choose to - avoiding situations that would lend themselves to 3rd wheel, exes, people in-fighting, etc. I figure that people can always seek and find their own battles if that is what they desire, regardless of my arrangement, but I try to avoid catalyzing conflict. In my own mind this is conscientiousness towards people, not manipulation/management, though I suppose it could be termed that. There is no underhandedness or malintent about it, just trying to avoid forcing people into situations that would make them feel uncomfortable.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

Ehhh.. now that I think of it, mostly it's all because I'm being downgraded from being a romantic interest. The whole thing confuses this ENFP, mostly because it seems like during the SO courting process that I've been involved in, it's always been in the guise of friendliness and group activity, so I don't quite get why that can't just resume in similar form after its ended. But it always ends up that I'm on a third tier social calendar, and it bothers me that the 'friend' part was never really about being friends.

But, it seems like they want to keep you on some list somewhere anyway, like on some sort of back burner or something. This is alien to me, mostly because friends to me are people who have a regular and persistent presence. Everyone else is just... everyone else to me.

I haven't actually noticed the phenomenon you mentioned in your OP, at least as being related to social-first extraversion. But I do notice the phenomenon quoted here--I've often felt like a "backup" friend, or The Friend I'll Use When Everyone Else Fails. I assumed it had something to do with me, because I suck, because I'm not likeable enough, because I'm a 4w5, or whatnot.

I agree with your outlook on friendship, but find it extremely rare that someone reciprocates.