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[so] So-last SJs

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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How does THAT work?

Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well. :)
 

Elfboy

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sx/sp
How does THAT work?
Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?
Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well. :)

- Kenny G: ISTJ 3w2 Sp/Sx
- Christian Bale: ESTJ 3w4 or 8w7 Sp/Sx
- Robert De Niro: ISTJ 8w9 Sp/Sx
- Russel Crowe: ISTJ 8w9 Sx/Sp
 

Elfboy

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[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]
you mentioned Dexter Morgan in another thread. he's another good example of an So last SJ. I'd say ISTJ 6w5 Sp/Sx
 

EJCC

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EJCC
you mentioned Dexter Morgan in another thread. he's another good example of an So last SJ. I'd say ISTJ 6w5 Sp/Sx
I'm never sure if he's ISTJ or INTJ. In early seasons, I would have said that he was very ISTJ, but for the past three seasons -- since the Big Twist at the end of the season with Trinity (was that season 4?) -- he's been so impulsive and reliant on gut instincts, in a way that seems contrary to Si. But yes, back when his entire being was devoted to the Code, and when he came unhinged whenever the Code was questioned (e.g. the scenes with Doakes in Season 2)... totally ISTJ.

I read an interview with Christian Bale, after you posted that, and I could see ESTJ for him. Maybe ENTJ, but for sure ExTx 8. Considering him and Dexter, then, would you say that SJ so-last would mean more of a narrow focus, in their internal standards? Taking their sense of right and wrong and laser-focusing it either on themselves, or one thing, as opposed to, say, generalizing it to apply to a group/society/the world? In other words... a less community-oriented, but equally just and loyal, SJ?

p.s. Why are you awake?? Aren't you in my time zone? (I've got a paper due. What's your excuse? ;) )
 

Halla74

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sx/so
How does THAT work?

Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well. :)

Good question EJCC. :hifive:

Before I get into how I feel it affects the implementation of my own life, let's review some descriptive info from the Interwebz:

FROM: http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/

Instinctual Variants
"The theory of "instincts" states that each person, no matter what type they are, has a mix of the three psychological instincts: Sexual, Social, and Self Preservation. This is one of the reasons why two people can be the same type, but very different. The Sexual Instinct, often referred to as SX, causes you to seek out intense connections in one-on-one relationships. The Social Instinct, often referred to as SO, causes you to seek out warm, open, personal connections with many different people...

The passage at the end claims that:

"On a side note, your variant stackings may change when you are in different situations or different levels of health."

I have never heard the above, but it is an interesting concept - considering that if true, it would describe why someone who is typed "sx/so" (such as myself) might not act that way 100% of the time depending on what they have going on in their lives.

One more quote from the WWW before I offer my own interpretation of this phenomena:

FROM: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp#instincts


The Three Instincts

"The three Instincts (often erroneously called "the subtypes") are a third set of distinctions that are extremely important for understanding personality. A major aspect of human nature lies in our instinctual "hard wiring" as biological beings. We each are endowed with specific instinctual intelligences that are necessary for our survival as individuals and as a species. We each have a self-preservation instinct (for preserving the body and its life and functioning), a sexual instinct (for extending ourselves in the environment and through the generations), and a social instinct (for getting along with others and forming secure social bonds).

While we have all three Instincts in us, one of them is the dominant focus of our attention and behavior—the set of attitudes and values that we are most attracted to and comfortable with. We each also have a second Instinct that is used to support the dominant Instinct, as well as a third Instinct that is the least developed—a real blind spot in our personality and our values. Which Instinct is in each of these three places—most, middle, and least developed—produces what we call our "Instinctual Stack" (like a three-layer cake) with your dominant Instinct on top, the next most developed Instinct in the middle, and the least developed on the bottom).

These instinctual drives profoundly influence our personalities, and at the same time, our personalities largely determine how each person prioritizes these instinctual needs. Thus, while every human being has all three of these instincts operating in him or her, our personality causes us to be more concerned with one of these instincts than the other two. We call this instinct our dominant instinct. This tends to be our first priority—the area of life we attend to first. But when we are more caught up in the defenses of our personality—further down the Levels of Development— our personality most interferes with our dominant instinct.

Further, our Enneagram type flavors the way in which we approach our dominant instinctual need. Combining our Enneagram type with our dominant instinct yields a much more specific portrait of the workings of our personality. When we apply the distinctions of these three instincts to the nine Enneagram types they create 27 unique combinations of type and dominant instinct that account for differences and variability within the types. We call these combinations the Instinctual Variants.[/i]"

The Enneagram Institute offers an online test, the Instinctual Variants Questionnaire (IVQ) < found at: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ivq.asp >, for helping people determine not only their dominant instinct, but also their Instinctual Stack. The IVQ also provides a detailed personality profile derived from the combination of the test taker's Enneagram type, wing, and Instinctual Stack.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Now for my experience as an ESTP who is answering this thread as a n honorary ESTJ, considering my P/J score is 51%/49%, and I was raised by my Dad, the most hardcore ESTJ who has ever lived. :2ar15:

The following two snippets are from the first reference I cited:

The Sexual Instinct, often referred to as SX, causes you to seek out intense connections in one-on-one relationships. = Hell yes it does. I prefer my relations with people to be DIRECT. I don't like relationships where alot of protocol, formality, and other forms of t necessarily harmful, or "bad" - just not my preference).

I have very good people skills. I can "size people up" VERY quickly with regard to how much I feel I have in common with them, and how interesting they are to me on a personal level.

A few weeks ago a new contractor (Paul) joined a project I am working on. For the first week or so I didn't get a chance to talk with him much, but I got a chance to listen to him talk to others, and got to observe his social interaction style.

Immediately obvious to me were that: (a) this guy is without a doubt a genius, as in IQ 160 or above - he knows a damn awful lot about everything, and (b) he is completely unpretentious (a trait I too possess, and that I value highly in others), and finally (c) his sense of humor was totally warped - another fave of mine.

Last week the project went nuts as we met with a vendor who is doing part of the work, and so me and the contractor, and another employee of my company (Roger, another really cool, smart dude) wound up debriefing after these vendor meetings for several hours to get a jump on things.

We solved in hours what would have taken alot of people two weeks or more.

Paul and I went to lunch a few times, and learned a ton from each other, and laughed our asses off in the process. I asked him about his MBTI type = He's an ANTP (Ambivert-NTP)

I have no idea what his Enneagram stackins are, but now you know how mine work....

The Social Instinct, often referred to as SO, causes you to seek out warm, open, personal connections with many different people... = YES, I do this and it is of great benefit to my work. On large complicated projects that necessitate having direct and sincere communications with a multitude of people from different departments of an organization this is a great gift.

FINAL NOTE: I know I have the "sp" instinctual variant as well, but I think I use it very little directly, as I am always one not to put myself in stupid/dangerous situations, and also - in all honesty, I am not a creature who is afraid of a whole lot. I'm basically not afraid of anything. I learned to be that way from my Dad, and learned why I am at peace with such thinking from him, and throughout my own life experience. When you're 6 feet tall and 250 pounds of muscle, not too many things mess with you. But, even so, mentally, I am at peace with the world around me, and with my ultimate fate, and thus am not limited by apprehension as I try to make the most of my life each day.

:solidarity:

P.S. A final excerpt from the first page I quoted:

FROM:

"The following are brief descriptions of the three instincts:


Self Preservation Instinct

People who have this as their dominant instinct are preoccupied with the safety, comfort, health, energy, and well-being of the physical body. In a word, they are concerned with having enough resources to meet life's demands. Identification with the body is a fundamental focus for all humans, and we need our body to function well in order to be alive and active in the world. Most people in contemporary cultures are not faced life or death "survival" in the strictest sense; thus, Self-Preservation types tend to be concerned with food, money, housing, medical matters, and physical comfort. Moreover, those primarily focused on self-preservation, by extension, are usually interested in maintaining these resources for others as well. Their focus of attention naturally goes towards things related to these areas such as clothes, temperature, shopping, decorating, and the like, particularly if they are not satisfied in these areas or have a feeling of deficiency due to their childhoods. Self-Pres types tend to be more grounded, practical, serious, and introverted than the other two instinctual types. They might have active social lives and a satisfying intimate relationship, but if they feel that their self-preservation needs are not being met, still tend not to be happy or at ease. In their primary relationships, these people are "nesters"—they seek domestic tranquility and security with a stable, reliable partner.

Sexual (aka "Attraction") Instinct

Many people originally identify themselves as this type because they have learned that the Sexual types are interested in "one-on-one relationships." But all three instinctual types are interested in one-on-one relationships for different reasons, so this does not distinguish them. The key element in Sexual types is an intense drive for stimulation and a constant awareness of the "chemistry" between themselves and others. Sexual types are immediately aware of the attraction, or lack thereof, between themselves and other people. Further, while the basis of this instinct is related to sexuality, it is not necessarily about people engaging in the sexual act. There are many people that we are excited to be around for reasons of personal chemistry that we have no intention of "getting involved with." Nonetheless, we might be aware that we feel stimulated in certain people's company and less so in others. The sexual type is constantly moving toward that sense of intense stimulation and juicy energy in their relationships and in their activities. They are the most "energized" of the three instinctual types, and tend to be more aggressive, competitive, charged, and emotionally intense than the Self-Pres or Social types. Sexual types need to have intense energetic charge in their primary relationships or else they remain unsatisfied. They enjoy being intensely involved—even merged—with others, and can become disenchanted with partners who are unable to meet their need for intense energetic union. Losing yourself in a "fusion" of being is the ideal here, and Sexual types are always looking for this state with others and with stimulating objects in their world.

Social (aka "Adaptive") Instinct

Just as many people tend to misidentify themselves as Sexual types because they want one-on-one relationships, many people fail to recognize themselves as Social types because they get the (false) idea that this means always being involved in groups, meetings, and parties. If Self-Preservation types are interested in adjusting the environment to make themselves more secure and comfortable, Social types adapt themselves to serve the needs of the social situation they find themselves in. Thus, Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek personal connection: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types. In their primary relationships, they seek partners with whom they can share social activities, wanting their intimates to get involved in projects and events with them. Paradoxically, they actually tend to avoid long periods of exclusive intimacy and quiet solitude, seeing both as potentially limiting. Social types lose their sense of identity and meaning when they are not involved with others in activities that transcend their individual interests.

Typing Yourself and Others

Once you have taken the Riso-Hudson Enneagram Type Indicator to discover your dominant type, and perhaps also the Instinctual Variants Questionnaire to further refine your understanding of the Enneagram types, you may be curious about the personality types of others. Since you will usually not be able to administer the RHETI or IVQ to business associates or to strangers, you might wonder how you can become more skilled at discovering which type someone else is. By studying the descriptions in Personality Types, Understanding the Enneagram, and The Wisdom of the Enneagram, you will, in time, become more adept at typing people. As you do so, however, you might keep several points in mind.

You may be able to figure out the types of a few close friends rather quickly, or you may find it difficult to categorize people and not know where to begin. Either state is normal. It is not always apparent which type someone is, and it takes time and study to sharpen your skills. Remember that you are like a beginning medical student who is learning to diagnose a wide variety of conditions, some healthy and some unhealthy. It takes practice to learn to identify the various "symptoms" of each type and to see larger "syndromes."

Despite the subtleties and complexities involved, there is really no secret about typing people. You must learn which traits go with each type and observe how people manifest those traits. This is a subtle undertaking because there are many subtypes and quirks to each personality type. Different types can sometimes seem similar, particularly if their motivations are not taken into account. This is why it is not sufficient to focus on a single trait in isolation and make a diagnosis based on it alone. It is necessary to see each type as a whole— its overall style, approach to life, and especially its underlying motivations—before you can determine someone's type reliably. Many elements must come together before you can be sure that you have typed someone accurately.

Moreover, when we diagnose others, we are always on thinner ice than when we use the Enneagram to deepen our own self-knowledge. It is, of course, more appropriate to apply this material to ourselves than to type others while we avoid looking at our own lives. Nevertheless, it is unrealistic to think that anything as interesting (or as insightful) as the Enneagram will not be used for better understanding others. In fact, we categorize people all the time. No one approaches others without some sort of mental categories. We automatically perceive people either as male or female, black or white, attractive or unattractive, good or bad, friend or enemy, and so forth. It is not only honest to be aware of this, it is useful to have more accurate and appropriate categories for everyone, including ourselves.

Although the Enneagram is probably the most open-ended and dynamic of typologies, this does not imply that the Enneagram can say all there is to say about human beings. Individuals are understandable only up to a certain point beyond which they remain mysterious and unpredictable. Thus, while there can be no simple explanations for persons, it is still possible to say something true about them. In the last analysis, the Enneagram helps us to do that—and only that. The Enneagram is useful because it indicates with startling clarity certain constellations of meaning about something that is essentially beyond definition: the mystery that we are.
 

Elfboy

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I'm never sure if he's ISTJ or INTJ. In early seasons, I would have said that he was very ISTJ, but for the past three seasons -- since the Big Twist at the end of the season with Trinity (was that season 4?) -- he's been so impulsive and reliant on gut instincts, in a way that seems contrary to Si. But yes, back when his entire being was devoted to the Code, and when he came unhinged whenever the Code was questioned (e.g. the scenes with Doakes in Season 2)... totally ISTJ.
I read an interview with Christian Bale, after you posted that, and I could see ESTJ for him. Maybe ENTJ, but for sure ExTx 8. Considering him and Dexter, then, would you say that SJ so-last would mean more of a narrow focus, in their internal standards? Taking their sense of right and wrong and laser-focusing it either on themselves, or one thing, as opposed to, say, generalizing it to apply to a group/society/the world? In other words... a less community-oriented, but equally just and loyal, SJ?
p.s. Why are you awake?? Aren't you in my time zone? (I've got a paper due. What's your excuse? ;) )
working on my final speech for Public Speaking. I'm done now though, got 3 hours of sleep :D
 

violet_crown

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I'm never sure if he's ISTJ or INTJ. In early seasons, I would have said that he was very ISTJ, but for the past three seasons -- since the Big Twist at the end of the season with Trinity (was that season 4?) -- he's been so impulsive and reliant on gut instincts, in a way that seems contrary to Si. But yes, back when his entire being was devoted to the Code, and when he came unhinged whenever the Code was questioned (e.g. the scenes with Doakes in Season 2)... totally ISTJ.

Hmm. I've always thought that Dexter was IP rather than IJ. Primarily because his code was one that was externally imposed and (unevenly) engrained into him by his actual STJ father. While Dexter has a rigid, outward adherence to logic it is in direct opposition to his internal dialogue which is always pretty strikingly Fi. The idea that Dex is not STJ is further emphasized by the fact that all long-term/global thinking he does is projected into Ghost Harry, an externalization of Te which seems to indicate that it's an inferior function.

I know I'm going against the grain here, but I'm gonna say that Dexter is ISFP, trying to appear ISTJ, and ends up looking ISTP.
 

Cloud of Thunder

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Mother Theresa is the ULTIMATE ISFJ. She's also 2w1 Sp/Sx.

Regarding Dexter Morgan, I think he's an ISTP 3w4 Sp/Sx.
 

Elfboy

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Mother Theresa is the ULTIMATE ISFJ. She's also 2w1 Sp/Sx.
nooo, So/Sx or So/Sp

Regarding Dexter Morgan, I think he's an ISTP 3w4 Sp/Sx.
only seen clips of the show, but 3w4 Sp/Sx makes sense (though I see him as some sort of Fi/Te user)
 

Southern Kross

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How does THAT work?

Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well. :)
I don't know that I would say SJs are focussed on hierarchies - it's not a word I necessarily associate with them. I think SJs are interested in order; either maintaining it or challenging/disrupting it. This is different because it's more generally about how things fit together, rather than creating a sense of comparison and opposition. Hierarchy can come into all this, but I don't think it's always the central issue. But then you may disagree. :shrug:

Remember also there's more to the social instinct than hierarchy and status. It's more of an awareness of social elements and interaction; what is demanded of yourself and others in the social realm; how one person is similar and different to others etc.

Fe and So seem similar and I think perhaps can heighten SJ stereotypes for the XSFJs, which can confuse the issue. My mum's a Sp/Sx ISFJ and I have Fe-using Dad (he's a ISTP) who's So/Sp - so the differences are more apparent to me. In addition to this my ESTJ sister is Sx/Sp and I'm a So/Sp, and our behaviours tend to divide along these lines (ie. My Dad and Me vs. My sister and Mum). My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. :D So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I don't think so. He exercises Se very readily when he's on the hunt for victims/killers. Plus I think he uses Fe when he has to interact with others.

He's completely I/N/T/J. I don't see how he can be anything else, no matter what functions he uses at certain times.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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Hmm. I've always thought that Dexter was IP rather than IJ. Primarily because his code was one that was externally imposed and (unevenly) engrained into him by his actual STJ father. While Dexter has a rigid, outward adherence to logic it is in direct opposition to his internal dialogue which is always pretty strikingly Fi. The idea that Dex is not STJ is further emphasized by the fact that all long-term/global thinking he does is projected into Ghost Harry, an externalization of Te which seems to indicate that it's an inferior function.

I know I'm going against the grain here, but I'm gonna say that Dexter is ISFP, trying to appear ISTJ, and ends up looking ISTP.

I concur that Dexter is ISFP with a projected ISTJ survival mode he incorporated due to his foster father. "Dark passenger"?! A constant quest for self-discovery... It's all so ridiculously Fi. Initially I thought he was INTJ with a "learned" ISTJ mode (with maybe a combo of having a photographic memory), now I think ISFP fits far better and sort of accounts for his INTJness at times.

I think it's easy to see a sociopath and think "must be a T!" which assumes that emotion = F and nonemotion = T which would be incorrect.
 

violet_crown

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Regarding Dexter Morgan, I think he's an ISTP 3w4 Sp/Sx.

I'd go with 5w4, actually. Dexter worries about his image as a matter of necessity, not as one of fixation. His whole character revolves him, his needs, and manipulating his enviornment to ensure that his needs are met.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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I'd go with 5w4, actually. Dexter worries about his image as a matter of necessity, not as one of fixation. His whole character revolves him, his needs, and manipulating his enviornment to ensure that his needs are met.

/concur

He is knowledge first, identity second, image nowhere.
 

Elfboy

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I don't know that I would say SJs are focussed on hierarchies - it's not a word I necessarily associate with them. I think SJs are interested in order; either maintaining it or challenging/disrupting it. This is different because it's more generally about how things fit together, rather than creating a sense of comparison and opposition. Hierarchy can come into all this, but I don't think it's always the central issue. But then you may disagree. :shrug:
Remember also there's more to the social instinct than hierarchy and status. It's more of an awareness of social elements and interaction; what is demanded of yourself and others in the social realm; how one person is similar and different to others etc.
Fe and So seem similar and I think perhaps can heighten SJ stereotypes for the XSFJs, which can confuse the issue. My mum's a Sp/Sx ISFJ and I have Fe-using Dad (he's a ISTP) who's So/Sp - so the differences are more apparent to me. In addition to this my ESTJ sister is Sx/Sp and I'm a So/Sp, and our behaviours tend to divide along these lines (ie. My Dad and Me vs. My sister and Mum). My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. :D So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.
^well said. the social instinct is generally very poorly understood, and I agree that there is more overlap with Fe and Social Instinct than Si and Social Instinct
 

skylights

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I harbor a suspicion that my boyfriend may be sp/sx and not sp/so like we both originally thought. We are both very certain he's an SJ, and he has confirmed 9w1 sp-dom as well.

We both initially identified sp/so on these grounds: He is very politically and organizationally aware. He almost always knows the names of groups and their function, and he listens to public radio almost every morning to stay abreast of political issues. He is very interested in government functioning and structure, from military strategy to royal ranks. He affiliates himself with the public institution where he works and with the university where he studies (but rarely if ever did with a previous workplace he disliked). He has even once or twice networked one friend in business with another.

However, the below is what is getting to me:

Southern Kross said:
I think SJs are interested in order; either maintaining it or challenging/disrupting it. This is different because it's more generally about how things fit together, rather than creating a sense of comparison and opposition. [...] Remember also there's more to the social instinct than hierarchy and status. It's more of an awareness of social elements and interaction; what is demanded of yourself and others in the social realm; how one person is similar and different to others etc.

While he is an easygoing and optimistic 9w1, he is also rather quick to draw a solid and curt boundary between himself and another person. He will freely insult someone who has been rude to him, provided he is not at work. He was strictly raised with proper etiquette and behavior, so he still retains much of that, but he also doesn't seem to change very much from hiking a mountain to eating at a fancy restaurant. He does not seem particularly concerned with image and very much dislikes pretense. He enjoys going to the country club, but seems to most appreciate the amenities and comfort - the pool, the food, his friends, the atmosphere, the happy memories. He likes being well-respected and stable but he doesn't seem to be interested in active social positioning, so to speak.

Most significantly, when it comes to his priorities, it seems like first is taking care of the things he needs to take care of (food, work, class, gas, bills, etc.), then spending time with me and doing things together, then finally engaging in other social activities. While we both are interested in socializing positively (volunteering, seeing friends, spending time with family, etc.), that always seems to take a backseat to our other priorities.

In addition, the ocean-moonshine descriptions pushed me towards sp/sx:

ocean-moonshine.net 9 Self-pres/Social said:
This subtype is the most self-effacing of type Nine, possibly the least assertive of all the enneagram types. They can feel as though they have been looked over and passed by. While they do desire attention and recognition, with the sexual instinct last in the stacking, they seldom actively pursue it. They feel as though it’s just not worth it. This subtype is usually very deliberate and methodical in their speech. They sometimes get frustrated because they don’t feel that they can say what they really want to say. They are therefore often very short and concise with their communication, not wanting to provoke any confrontation. But when given a chance and the time to express themselves, they can be quite talkative. While self-pres needs are important to this type, the fact that they are essentially Nines, sometimes causes them to put the needs of others before their own. When under stress, this type is likely to do busy work, anything that distracts them from their problems.

In relationships, the self-pres instinct combines with the merging qualities of the Nine to make a person committed and connected strongly in areas of security, home and other practical matters. They merge their environment with their loved ones. On the down side, this subtype can be passive-aggressive and withdraw under stress, holding back affection. They could possibly go long periods of time without talking to their spouse directly.

ocean-moonshine.net 9 Self-pres/Sexual said:
This subtype is self-effacing also, but is generally more assertive. They may be the subtype of Nine which is most aware of the boundaries between themselves and others and at the same time, possibly the most frustrated when those boundaries are violated.
They can be aware of being walked over and they might even be aware of the anger it causes, but they become frustrated with their seeming inability to control this pattern. This is true, to some degree, of all Nines, but with the self-pres/sexual instinctual stacking, there seems to be a complex and interesting balance between the withdrawing energy caused by the dominant self-pres instinct and the assertive energy of the sexual instinct. This combination seems to raise consciousness of this dynamic.

Getting healthy for this subtype, and for all Nines, involves becoming aware of this dynamic and realizing they do have the power to control their boundaries. Part of this must come from the realization on the part of the Nine that they have invited this overstepping of their boundaries from others by not defining them.

Close relationships will usually work or not for this subtype depending on how well they deal with this issue.

He's definitely not lacking self-assertion. He'll certainly try first to maintain harmony, and very much dislikes conflict, but once he's chosen a battle, he'll quickly and decisively address it. He doesn't have the same degree of tact that my ESFJ 2w1 sp/so mom does, and he doesn't seem to feel like there's much necessity for that. He also shares my atmospheric snobbery, being annoyed by distractions and interruptions and really appreciating aesthetic environments. He rarely holds back affection, as far as I can tell, and is frequently the one reaching out to me, despite him voicing that it feels uncharacteristic of him. We usually spend 6 hours a day together on workdays, and the entire day on most of our off days. He's quite demonstrative of affection... we recently went to a retirement dinner for a coworker and we got teased for visibly holding hands the whole time. I loved it and he seemed quite pleased, too. Tonight he told me about how he was discussing happy relationships at work today with his coworker who just got married, and was talking about us. He texts me often during the day, checking in on me. I really feel like the ocean-moonshine sp/sx description hit on a big issue with the boundaries, because that's something that struck me about him since the beginning. His boundaries are very important, though not always particularly clear to me.

I'm not sold either way thus far. Anyone who has an opinion on this is more than welcome to weigh in.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
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Dec 22, 2008
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INFP
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4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
I harbor a suspicion that my boyfriend may be sp/sx and not sp/so like we both originally thought. We are both very certain he's an SJ, and he has confirmed 9w1 sp-dom as well.

We both initially identified sp/so on these grounds: He is very politically and organizationally aware. He almost always knows the names of groups and their function, and he listens to public radio almost every morning to stay abreast of political issues. He is very interested in government functioning and structure, from military strategy to royal ranks. He affiliates himself with the public institution where he works and with the university where he studies (but rarely if ever did with a previous workplace he disliked). He has even once or twice networked one friend in business with another.
Yes, these can be quite Social instinct related. I'm interested in politics and world events - albeit in the generalised Ne way. But a lot of these are structure related and that could be what is drawing him, rather than the Social, comparative elements. He also could take interest if he is a Fe user wanting to keep in touch with people and their goings on.

However, the below is what is getting to me:

While he is an easygoing and optimistic 9w1, he is also rather quick to draw a solid and curt boundary between himself and another person. He will freely insult someone who has been rude to him, provided he is not at work. He was strictly raised with proper etiquette and behavior, so he still retains much of that, but he also doesn't seem to change very much from hiking a mountain to eating at a fancy restaurant. He does not seem particularly concerned with image and very much dislikes pretense. He enjoys going to the country club, but seems to most appreciate the amenities and comfort - the pool, the food, his friends, the atmosphere, the happy memories. He likes being well-respected and stable but he doesn't seem to be interested in active social positioning, so to speak.

Most significantly, when it comes to his priorities, it seems like first is taking care of the things he needs to take care of (food, work, class, gas, bills, etc.), then spending time with me and doing things together, then finally engaging in other social activities. While we both are interested in socializing positively (volunteering, seeing friends, spending time with family, etc.), that always seems to take a backseat to our other priorities.
Yeah this doesn't sound much like the social instinct. Social-lasts seem to be driven more my their own inclinations and don't really seem to second guess them much - whereas a Social-1st, and to a lesser extend a Social-2nd, might waiver and worry about how they might come off. Social-lasts are less aware of what's "appropriate" and don't adapt as much, or as well, to the situation. They tend to be people that talk about "being true to themselves", as if changing a little might somehow undermine their integrity or character. Social-firsts on the other hand are always looking to adapt to the situation and will shift their behaviour accordingly. This is not to say they are less "true to themselves" than So-lasts, it's just that they don't see adaptability as a threat to their sense of self.

Also I hope I didn't give you the impression the So-users are polite and So-lasts are not. Politeness is not related to it. Although, So-users might be polite for different reasons than So-lasts, and may have different definitions of what politeness constitutes.

In addition, the ocean-moonshine descriptions pushed me towards sp/sx:

He's definitely not lacking self-assertion. He'll certainly try first to maintain harmony, and very much dislikes conflict, but once he's chosen a battle, he'll quickly and decisively address it. He doesn't have the same degree of tact that my ESFJ 2w1 sp/so mom does, and he doesn't seem to feel like there's much necessity for that. He also shares my atmospheric snobbery, being annoyed by distractions and interruptions and really appreciating aesthetic environments. He rarely holds back affection, as far as I can tell, and is frequently the one reaching out to me, despite him voicing that it feels uncharacteristic of him. We usually spend 6 hours a day together on workdays, and the entire day on most of our off days. He's quite demonstrative of affection... we recently went to a retirement dinner for a coworker and we got teased for visibly holding hands the whole time. I loved it and he seemed quite pleased, too. Tonight he told me about how he was discussing happy relationships at work today with his coworker who just got married, and was talking about us. He texts me often during the day, checking in on me. I really feel like the ocean-moonshine sp/sx description hit on a big issue with the boundaries, because that's something that struck me about him since the beginning. His boundaries are very important, though not always particularly clear to me.

I'm not sold either way thus far. Anyone who has an opinion on this is more than welcome to weigh in.
Are you sure he's 9w1? A lot of what you've been saying sound like 9w8. I think the 8 wing sounds more aggressive than it really is, so people often don't consider it a possibility. My Dad's a 9w8 and is the most easy going guy, but he doesn't have the softness or philosophical bent of a 9w1.

How does this description sound?

9w8

9w8 is about calmness(nine) from a position of strength(eight). They choose to be calm as opposed to feeling they have to maintain being calm to avoid conflict or estrangement like a 9w1. They don't invite conflict but don't shy away from it either as they nip conflict in the bud as quickly as possible. They are the most "chill" of the instinctive triaders. They have the best balance in their personal boundaries as they are halfway in between being a doormat and dominating others. This is why they are generally the most likeable of all subtypes.

9w8 is called the "comfort-seeker" and wants to make life easier for themselves. They are firmly grounded in their bodies with an emphasis on being physically comfortable. Hardly anything bothers them. They aren't nearly as hard on themselves as 9w1s. They are easygoing but can be direct with others if forced out of their comfort zone as they are much more assertive than their 9w1 siblings. While they have a bias towards letting things work out on their own they have no problem stepping in and settling things.

9w8s have an ego in being grounded in reality. They pride themselves in being simple regular people. They take pleasure in noticing when there isn't any point to discussing something, often to the extent of exhibiting a "who cares" apathy. Asserting their self-importance certainly falls in that category. While they are realistic about themselves they have a tendency to be underestimated by others. Like eights they play down and trivialize what's not worth dwelling on as "no big deal". Not getting what they want is also declared "no big deal" and therefore not that important. They tend to be attracted to the outdoors and other physical activities. They mainly fear permanently losing loved ones.

9w8s are more genial and practical. They are significantly less withdrawn than 9w1s. Although they are less intuitive than 9w1s, they have a natural sense of rhythm for the ebb and flow of things around them. They have an ability to make anyone like them even when they are being irreverent and mischevious. They have an "it's all good" attitude as nothing appears to bother them. In response to a prank they might go "nice one" whereas a 9w1 would initially seem dazed and taken aback before saying it's alright. 9w8s have an overt(eight) haze(nine) in comparison to the more repressed(one) haze(nine) of 9w1s. Like all 9s they have trouble expressing anger directly and become less focused when they do. Their 8 wing though makes them more able to blow off steam by expressing anger physically at least, like throwing stuff in fustration.
 

skylights

i love
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so/sx
Also I hope I didn't give you the impression the So-users are polite and So-lasts are not. Politeness is not related to it. Although, So-users might be polite for different reasons than So-lasts, and may have different definitions of what politeness constitutes.

I think I understand what you mean. What I was expressing was it's more about the ability if you want, because So-users naturally have a better understanding of the social currents. It's just like how with Sx I'm very fluent in relationship issues, because I focus on it so damned much. It's not that I'm always a good confidante, but because of my constant focus on pair bonding, I can be quite skilled if and when I choose to be. It's just that with him, it's hard for me to differentiate, because he was raised with stringent etiquette. For example, we both agree that it's almost never bad thing to be slightly overdressed, and we both tend to dress a little nicer than the average bear. I could relate this to my enneatype in that I feel more secure when I'm dressed more nicely - more ready for anything and less likely to be poorly judged - but there's also just the fact that I like wearing dresses. So, which is which? His style is sort of "relaxed prep". It seems to suit him well because he likes to look presentable and professional but be comfortable. I can easily tie the comfort into 9, but then I like being comfortable too... so many factors.

Are you sure he's 9w1? A lot of what you've been saying sound like 9w8. I think the 8 wing sounds more aggressive than it really is, so people often don't consider it a possibility. My Dad's a 9w8 and is the most easy going guy, but he doesn't have the softness or philosophical bent of a 9w1.

How does this description sound?

I see what you mean, and I've considered it. He's certainly got aspects of both wings. He really has a lot of 1 traits, though, being rather superego-driven and a little bit high-strung in certain ways. Compared to the description, he does actively avoid conflict, and bemoans it when he feels like it could have been avoidable. I don't see much of "dominating others" in him - he seems to seek independence/autonomy much more strongly than any sort of control. He's very hard on himself, though he seeks comfort. Rarely has he dropped a subject because of seeming pointlessness - he's only ever dropped a conversation with me when I've turned hostile. He will minimize conflict, though. He enjoys the outdoors but prefers it to be somewhat relaxed/controlled. I've never seen him take frustration out physically - he seems to shut down more than getting wound up. He keeps it inside.

My ISTP little brother is a clear 9w8 and I see him so clearly in that description, while my boyfriend tends to be more controlled, more in his head, more imaginative, less action-oriented, having more of a need to be "good"/upright, more of a need to actively improve himself, more of need to use his knowledge to impact others. Overall, he seems more w1 to me. He has the comfort-seeking of the 9 but often seems to be in his head and trying to adjust things to be more comfortable - he even presents that in his physical body. How much of this is SJ versus SP, how much is wing versus wing, how much is instinct variant, how much is simple individual human variation? That's what I'm having such a hard time clarifying. Everything seems relative.
 
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