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Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts The relationship between the two most dominant instincts

VagrantFarce

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Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
1,558
Could sp last make a 6 more trusting and less "the world is a dangerous place"? I assumed I was sp first or second because I'm cautious and don't like taking risks, but 6's are cautious in general I think. :unsure:

Why are you cautious? Why do you avoid taking risks? In what situations do you behave this way? When are you not cautious and reticent, and why?

What part of yourself feels threatened? What could you do to not feel threatened, and why aren't you doing it? :)
 

Vizzy

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
229
Enneagram
5w4
I relate so much with what you've said in your posts. I may be also a Sx/sp; at least, the description this page gives of Sx/sp 5's fits me perfectly: http://ocean-moonshine.net/e1428573...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=33&MMN_position=86:80

I think there's a core contradiction in all Sx/sp types. For example, on the one hand, what I really want deep inside is complete connection with somebody, like finding my other half. But on the other hand, my sp instinct prevents that to happen, because my natural reaction is detachment and building defenses against others. So I can have a one-night stand with a guy, no problem with that, but the next morning I just want to go away and don't see or talk with that person anymore. And that's because I don't trust people generally, I see them as potential dangers and, though I don't like isolation, I keep distances. I'm afraid I'll lose my self-sufficiency and become weak if I don't do so.

So, putting it in Freudian terms, I could say that my Ego wants intimacy with one person (that special person, may it be a lover or a best friend), but my Id tells me that depending too much on a person is dangerous and that I'm better on my own. It's really like self-sabotage.
Of course, being myself a 5, I'm not sure how much of this behaviour is due to sp instinct and how much is due to type itself.
This conflict is extremely fun to analyze, I must admit. So many hours spent at night wondering, "Why? Why? Why?" and just leaving it at that.
Well, I know I'm not capable of a one-night stand. Heck, I'd feel scared and dirty if someone in real life put me and sex in the same sentence. So at least you're more sexually comfortable there than I am.
Would you mind elaborating on why you think depending too much on a person is dangerous? Dangerous in what way?
For me, it's:
- being vulnerable and emotionally dependent. Better off not expecting much. Safer to rely on myself for any stability because I'm all I have.
- other people's expectations scare me and I doubt I can live up to them. I'd rather not give someone that opportunity to be disappointed with me and reject me. At least my ego will be kept in tact.
- I don't trust people to stay with me. Loyalty is a nice concept, but hardly realistic. Perhaps I'm way too cynical. I'm of the mind that any guy who chooses me will easily leave me when someone better comes along.
So that goes back to my first point - I'm the only one I can rely on...assuming I don't decide to give up on myself.

I realize that much of what I wrote shows how dependent I actually am on what the other person thinks of me. It's just that instead of seeking acceptance and approval through intimacy (which I'm sure some sx-doms do) you'll find me on the other end of the same scale.
 

Silveresque

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1,169
Why are you cautious? Why do you avoid taking risks? In what situations do you behave this way? When are you not cautious and reticent, and why?

What part of yourself feels threatened? What could you do to not feel threatened, and why aren't you doing it? :)

I'm pretty sure I have So, probably first. I'm very cautious socially about what I say and how I say things to avoid making dumb mistakes and avoid upsetting people. It's probably (a small) part of why I'm so private and reserved, because I'm afraid of saying something stupid and embarrassing myself. And I don't open up much or talk about my feelings. When I'm angry, I don't show it because I don't want to make the other person mad at me. When I'm sad, I rarely tell anyone about it because if I do, I'm putting the other person in a position where they're socially/morally obligated to provide support, so any support I receive won't necessarily be real. On the other hand, if somebody guesses how I'm feeling and asks about it, then I'll know that their support is real and they're not just being nice because they're supposed to.

I'm also somewhat cautious about my belongings. Whenever I go out places and bring something with me, I keep it with me at all times so it can't get stolen (unless I get mugged or pick-pocketed, but I don't think about that much...). I also back up files on my computer so I don't lose them if my computer dies. But then again, I have two sp parents who raised me to be very careful about this. My dad can be overly worried about viruses at times, to the point where he didn't want me downloading anything or even copying and pasting images from the web even with anti-virus programs. He's way more sp than I am.

I definitely wouldn't do anything dangerous that could get me injured or killed (except driving...because I have to). I remember there was a roller-blade unit in my middle school P.E. class, and I was terrified that some reckless idiot who was skating way to fast was going to hit me. And sure enough, I got hit and knocked over, at least once or twice. One girl in my class got a concussion when someone ran into her. :aquiver:

But I can't say what I'm like in relationships in terms of being cautious or not because I've never been in one, so sx doesn't exactly get a fair representation here. :shrug:

I can't really think of very many situations where I'm not cautious. I guess I do take risks sometimes by expressing myself when I'm not sure how people will respond. It feels like I'm taking a risk every time I start a thread on here. And I suppose I don't exactly eat healthy, but at the same time I make sure I drink milk everyday. And I try not to eat too unhealthy, because I do care about my health. And I don't always dress appropriately for the weather. My parents kept trying to make me wear a winter coat in fall when nobody else was wearing one. I would feel very self-conscious being the only person wearing a big winter coat when everyone else is just wearing jackets (So again, I guess).

I wrote too much...(sorry!) :(
 

Vizzy

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
229
Enneagram
5w4
I agree with others who say that you're very likely sx last. It's not about experiences. Take me, for example. I've never dated or anything but I have a hell of a lot to say about the subject. It's all very much happening - inside my head. And as far as I'm concerned, it's just as real.

Anyway, I'll leave Vagrant to help figure out your instinct order.
 

VagrantFarce

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
1,558
Here's something to consider:

What do you wish you could be?

Don't make a huge list for yourself, just consider the first thing that popped into your head.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
There aren't any rules. Or at least, any that make sense.
It's just short-hand for expressing your particular fucked-upness.
People get to be fucked up in multiple, complimentary ways.
 

Silveresque

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Messages
1,169
Here's something to consider:

What do you wish you could be?

Don't make a huge list for yourself, just consider the first thing that popped into your head.

Actually, the first thing that popped up was being in relationship. :shock: I see myself having found my soul mate, my other half. But I don't know, there's no way I'm sx first. I could see second, maybe.

Interestingly, my goals/dreams for the future don't include anything material. I don't fantasize about living in a big fancy house with a ferrari and more money than I know what to do with. Wealth and security aren't my top priorities. Neither is being socially successful, I don't care at all about that. I don't ever fantasize about being popular or having a ton of friends, or any kind of social achievement. What I do fantasize about is more along the lines of finding my soul mate and traveling the world and finding meaning in my life.
 

Silveresque

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Remember, it's not about behaviour - it's about motive and needs.

If I think about which instincts motivate me the most...I could see myself as so/sx or so/sp. So affects me the most because I'm so worried about how everything I say/do will be perceived by others. Sp issues come up more often than sx issues for me, so I notice them more often. But sx issues interest me more and I would give them a higher priority. :thinking:
 

Silveresque

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Jul 28, 2011
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1,169
Also wth, you're a 6 now? :laugh:

Lol. It's December now, so I had to pick the next type of the month. :laugh: (Just kidding ;)) I think 6's motivations fit me best. I still can't see 9's motivations in me, and I don't think I do enough knowledge collecting to be a 5. I keep changing my mind though. :p
 

Vizzy

New member
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Jul 27, 2011
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229
Enneagram
5w4
[MENTION=14216]RevlisZero[/MENTION]
This is just an observation and I hope it doesn't affect how you act in forums. I repeat, just an observation. For someone who claims that she's taking a risk everytime she starts a thread, you sure start a lot of them - many of them asking the same questions too. Perhaps you're more socially comfortable than you think...?

Anyway, which of these two lines is more true?
You actively seek/avoid intimacy.
OR
You actively seek/avoid social acceptance.

Here, "active" = conscious effort, even if it's just in your mind.

I have a feeling you'll say something like, "Both. There are times I ....... and there are other times I .........."
It's an easy question. Which one is more true?

There was a thread a while back asking a "what if" scenario in relation to your instincts that is quite interesting:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...tinctual-variants-off-wall-scenario-game.html

:)
Just did it. :)
 

21%

You have a choice!
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
3,224
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Just did it. :)

Just wondering... if you're an sx/sp, if you find true love, would you follow him to the end of the world even if it includes both of you living in mild poverty for the rest of your lives?

I'm just asking because this will be a tough question for me, but in the end I think "No" will win. I need to be safe and secure first (and to be able to afford enough comfort -- which is, to be honest, not a lot) before I even think about love. I like fantasizing about giving it all up for romance and drama, but I will probably never do it. :blush:
 

Vizzy

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Enneagram
5w4
Just wondering... if you're an sx/sp, if you find true love, would you follow him to the end of the world even if it includes both of you living in mild poverty for the rest of your lives?

I'm just asking because this will be a tough question for me, but in the end I think "No" will win. I need to be safe and secure first (and to be able to afford enough comfort -- which is, to be honest, not a lot) before I even think about love. I like fantasizing about giving it all up for romance and drama, but I will probably never do it. :blush:
Wow...if I find true love, eh? Mild poverty as well? Actually, that sounds quite romantic. I would do that if I truly believed he loved me and wouldn't abandon me for someone else. Again, for me, trust and fear of rejection is the hurdle - my main concern.
That actually wasn't hard for me to answer.
 

Silveresque

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This is just an observation and I hope it doesn't affect how you act in forums. I repeat, just an observation. For someone who claims that she's taking a risk everytime she starts a thread, you sure start a lot of them - many of them asking the same questions too. Perhaps you're more socially comfortable than you think...?

It's painful every time, especially if nobody responds. :cry:

Anyway, which of these two lines is more true?
You actively seek/avoid intimacy.
OR
You actively seek/avoid social acceptance.

Here, "active" = conscious effort, even if it's just in your mind.

I have a feeling you'll say something like, "Both. There are times I ....... and there are other times I .........."
It's an easy question. Which one is more true?

You actively seek/avoid intimacy. - Neither. I want it, but I don't know how to get it. If I knew how, and found the right person, then I would actively seek it.
You actively seek/avoid social acceptance. - Hmm...not sure. I'm kind of invisible, and I prefer it that way, so I'm not sure "actively seek" are the right words. But I don't want to be disliked either, so I guess I avoid social rejection.

It's not an easy question if neither fits. I think part of being a phobic 6 is desiring but not actively seeking.
 

Silveresque

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Just wondering... if you're an sx/sp, if you find true love, would you follow him to the end of the world even if it includes both of you living in mild poverty for the rest of your lives?

I'm just asking because this will be a tough question for me, but in the end I think "No" will win. I need to be safe and secure first (and to be able to afford enough comfort -- which is, to be honest, not a lot) before I even think about love. I like fantasizing about giving it all up for romance and drama, but I will probably never do it. :blush:

In a heartbeat. If he's the right guy, it's worth it. I know this question wasn't for me, but I felt like answering anyways. :p
 

hhp

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
39
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Would you mind elaborating on why you think depending too much on a person is dangerous? Dangerous in what way?
For me, it's:
- being vulnerable and emotionally dependent. Better off not expecting much. Safer to rely on myself for any stability because I'm all I have.
- other people's expectations scare me and I doubt I can live up to them. I'd rather not give someone that opportunity to be disappointed with me and reject me. At least my ego will be kept in tact.
- I don't trust people to stay with me. Loyalty is a nice concept, but hardly realistic. Perhaps I'm way too cynical. I'm of the mind that any guy who chooses me will easily leave me when someone better comes along.
So that goes back to my first point - I'm the only one I can rely on...assuming I don't decide to give up on myself.

My motives for not trusting people too much are more or less the same. I always think that, on the long term, everybody (including myself) can betray, fail or abandon those that depend on him/her. So detaching from people is a way to prepare myself for the end of the relationship, which will happen sooner or later.
I've had indeed very strong and exclusive friendships that I put above the rest of my relationships (that's why I know that I'm Sx first, and not So, for example), but there's always been some caution in the background; the thought that, no matter how strong these relationships would look, at the end I was really on my own.

Many times, however, the distance I put between people and myself it's not even the result of mistrust; it's just that I'm unable to connect with them. If I have no problem with one-night stands, it's not because I'm comfortable with sex; it's because I see sex in itself just as a mechanical act, no feelings involved. When it comes to "love talking", flirting or the like, I feel extremely awkward. But I suppose this has more to do with the general inability of type 5's to handle feelings, rather than with sp instinct.
 

Vizzy

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229
Enneagram
5w4
It's painful every time, especially if nobody responds. :cry:



You actively seek/avoid intimacy. - Neither. I want it, but I don't know how to get it. If I knew how, and found the right person, then I would actively seek it.
You actively seek/avoid social acceptance. - Hmm...not sure. I'm kind of invisible, and I prefer it that way, so I'm not sure "actively seek" are the right words. But I don't want to be disliked either, so I guess I avoid social rejection.

It's not an easy question if neither fits. I think part of being a phobic 6 is desiring but not actively seeking.
Ok, cool. But I wasn't asking you to choose "seek" or "avoid" for either line. I wanted you to choose between the top and the second line.

I just want to know which preoccupies your mind more frequently - intimacy or social rejection/acceptance. I don't care whether you're seeking or avoiding because, as far as instincts are concerned, they're just two sides of the same coin.
 
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