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Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts The relationship between the two most dominant instincts

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
instinct variants:

Q: do you want to go to a party?
A:
- So: of course! I need to hang out with my friends more and this could be a chance to increase my popularity
- Sx: hell yeah! sex, drugs and rock n' roll baby!
- Sp: maybe, if there's good food and drinks are free
 

hhp

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
39
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Once again, it's stupid, the social environment and the place you were born are not part of your personalityt like spontaneous personals behaviors. Are you too much idiot to understand that? Or just hypocrit?

Again. The very fact that you're unable to discuss things objectively and without personal insults is much better explained by your poor education (social factors) than by any instinctual stackings.

And I insist, knowing that a person was born in a poor country and has to survive everyday, says much more about his approach to self-preservation, than knowing if that person is sp-dom or he isn't. So instinctual stackings don't help to understand people more than social factors in that way.
 

Flux

New member
Joined
Apr 16, 2011
Messages
46
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I identify with quite a few of those. Considering our ages, do you suppose it has to do as much with the beginning of adulthood as with actual type? :thinking:



Hey now, I did ask for permission.

IMO, I think your similarities have more to do with your instincts/enneagram types than life experience. A lot of what RZ posted seems like type 6 interests.

I'm a college student like both of you -- I want to have friends and social interaction but I am more concerned with being treated as individual. I want to be able to leave when I want and make my own decisions. I see groups of people as groups of individuals -- I don't like how sometimes group responsibilities limit my freedom.

I'd rather have that one person that means more than anything. It's stupid but I guess I have kind of an "us against the world" thing. It doesn't really matter if I'm alone now because nothing will satisfy but an intense connection. I don't understand 'hooking up' and 'one night stands', it scares me how easy it is to 'turn off' my feelings. It just doesn't interest me if there isn't an intense connection.

I just wanted to point out that you may relate to each other because of the 6 - 9 connection on the enneagram. I'm also interested in seeing what people think my instinctual stacking is (I'm pretty sure of it already).
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Again. The very fact that you're unable to discuss things objectively and without personal insults is much better explained by your poor education (social factors) than by any instinctual stackings.

I'm objective and did'nt insult you and don't know anything about my education. I'm possibly more educated than you. The level of education is also a liofe experience wich give clues about the enenatype and the instinctual variant.

And I insist, knowing that a person was born in a poor country and has to survive everyday, says much more about his approach to self-preservation, than knowing if that person is sp-dom or he isn't. So instinctual stackings don't help to understand people more than social factors in that way.

The social factor give clues about someone's approach to self-preservation, and then, knowing his approach give clues about his stacking. You did'nt prove anything and your post is wothless.
 

Vizzy

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
229
Enneagram
5w4
[MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION]
To be honest, I have more interesting things to get on with. Speaking of which, I'm done with this derailment.

Back to the instincts.

instinct variants:

Q: do you want to go to a party?
A:
- So: of course! I need to hang out with my friends more and this could be a chance to increase my popularity
- Sx: hell yeah! sex, drugs and rock n' roll baby!
- Sp: maybe, if there's good food and drinks are free

How about these answers? ;)
- So: No way, I'd hate for people to think that I'm mingling - and with this group!
- Sx: Heck no. There's a guy I like there and I'm scared to see him and for him to see me!
- Sp: Sure! I'll get some fresh air and laughter there - always good for the health!
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I wonder if it's not also:

Sp: yes! But I hope the music will not be too much loud and I will not be forced to dance
 

hhp

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
39
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
The social factor give clues about someone's approach to self-preservation, and then, knowing his approach give clues about his stacking.

You said it. Social factors give clues about people's approach to sex, society or self-preservation, which is pretty much what instinctual stackings try to do. Therefore, instinctual variants are redundant, therefore useless.

And don't excuse yourself now, saying that you don't insult, because you've done it and continue to do it.
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
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EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
You said it. Social factors give clues about people's approach to sex, society or self-preservation, which is pretty much what instinctual stackings try to do. Therefore, instinctual variants are redundant, therefore useless.

The social factor bring its own set of clues about the instinctual variants. But it's just one sided, there's tons of others factors wich influate, but the instinctual variant is the ultimate dignosis about what your raw bestial nature is. It's not redundant.

And don't excuse yourself now, saying that you don't insult, because you've done it and continue to do it.

calimero.gif
 

Richardsen

New member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
162
MBTI Type
IxFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
The social factor bring its own set of clues about the instinctual variants. But it's just one sided, there's tons of others factors wich influate, but the instinctual variant is the ultimate dignosis about what your raw bestial nature is. It's not redundant.



calimero.gif

How old are U???
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I wonder if it's not also:

Sp: yes! But I hope the music will not be too much loud and I will not be forced to dance

my Sp/Sx best friend who went to hip hop nationals would resent with this statement
 

hhp

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
39
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6

Because your age gives also important clues about your "raw bestial nature" :yim_rolling_on_the_

Still, if instinctual variants can be explained by other factors (no matter how many) they're redundant. You're just trying to reduce the product of complex factors to a suppossed "instinct"; the difference is that social factors are observable while these instincts are just speculative.

And these instincts are indeed arbitrary, because they've chosen to talk about only 3 instincts, but they could have talked about 4 or about one. Why, for example, are social and sexual needs separated from self-preservation? Sexuality and social ties serve the purpose of survival as much as food, health or temperature; this is the only reason for having social and sexual needs on the first place, there's no logical reason for considering them separatedly.

So well, instinctual variants differentiate people according to their raw needs, I give you that. You can differentiate among persons inside enneatype 2, for example, according to their needs of sex, social relationships or s-p. Still, you're leaving aside tons of others parameters which could also help to differentiate among those persons. You could have made the difference among 2's according to their artistic aptitudes, their interest in knowledge, or whatever that is also part of personality and isn't explained by enneatype and wing.
So why leave other parameters aside and instead give so much importance to sex, social and sp needs? This is arbitrary.

But what remains a mistery to me is why you've taken this issue as a personal offense on the first place. What, are you one of the developers of instinctual stackings, do they pay you each time you prove somebody just how wonderful these stackings are?
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Because your age gives also important clues about your "raw bestial nature" :yim_rolling_on_the_

Still, if instinctual variants can be explained by other factors (no matter how many) they're redundant.

Social factors, the place where you were born, family environment etc, are innate characterist.
Personality is aqcuired characteristc.

Completely different, you are off-topic, go back too school.

You're just trying to reduce the product of complex factors to a suppossed "instinct"; the difference is that social factors are observable while

You are basically on the side of naive holism, like if we were all conditioned by our social environment, without any differences possible, it's wrong.

these instincts are just speculative.

Prove it. The only one speculating here is you. And it's ackward and pathetic.

And these instincts are indeed arbitrary, because they've chosen to talk about only 3 instincts, but they could have talked about 4 or about one. Why, for example, are social and sexual needs separated from self-preservation? Sexuality and social ties serve the purpose of survival as much as food, health or temperature; this is the only reason for having social and sexual needs on the first place, there's no logical reason for considering them separatedly.

It is not separated since there's the notion of stacking. Elsewhere, there's thousands of instincts, but scientist have analysed it and judged that it could be concentrated in three big sector of life that we have gradually to deal during the childhood development. If you think you know better than them while you've never studied the subject, you are laughable.

Still, you're leaving aside tons of others parameters which could also help to differentiate among those persons.

Were you aware that we are not talking about individual personality but about types of personality? Every characteristic of a person can give clues to find the type, and ty type allow a global understanding of their personality.

You could have made the difference among 2's according to their artistic aptitudes, their interest in knowledge, or whatever that is also part of personality and isn't explained by enneatype and wing.

Enneagram has never been supposed to explain every behaviors and characteristics of a person, but only the problematic behavior which arises when they are entranced and in autopilot. You're off-topic.


So why leave other parameters aside and instead give so much importance to sex, social and sp needs?

Theses parameters are not put aside, but took in account to find the type. There can also be behavior which has not anything especially to do with the personality type. It does'nt matter, the type and the instinctual variant are dignosis, it has never been supposed to describe every characteristics of a person, such system is impossible to buld and would be totalitarian, that does'nt make theses dignosis less accurate and arbirtrary.

But what remains a mistery to me is why you've taken this issue as a personal offense on the first place.

I don't take it as personal offense, I simply don't have patience with idiots.
 

hhp

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
39
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Social factors, the place where you were born, family environment etc, are innate characterist.
Personality is aqcuired characteristc.

Social factors aren't innate characteristics, they're external to the person, and are the source (together with personality, which is indeed acquired, and other factors: biological and so on...) of people's approach to sex, society and sp. There's no such thing as instinctual stackings causing these behaviours; they depend on lots of different things, and fluctuate according to personal circumstances (as opposed to personality, which remains stable).
Sexual and social needs only arise once the person has satisfied his/her most basic needs (food, drink, shelter); only then they become their primary interest.




You are basically on the side of naive holism, like if we were all conditioned by our social environment, without any differences possible, it's wrong.

I've never said such thing. If you don't know how to interpret other people's ideas is your problem.



Prove it. The only one speculating here is you. And it's ackward and pathetic.

Prove it, prove it, prove it...:rolleyes: That's your answer for everything, but you haven't proved anything from your side yet; you've just rambled about how much do you know Lady Gaga, and how stupid is everybody except you. You're the only one who speculates here, and the most pathetic for sure.



It is not separated since there's the notion of stacking. Elsewhere, there's thousands of instincts, but scientist have analysed it and judged that it could be concentrated in three big sector of life that we have gradually to deal during the childhood development. If you think you know better than them while you've never studied the subject, you are laughable.

Which scientists?
All instincts are the result of evolution, all of them serve the purpose of survival. In this way, all instincts are self-preservational. You're separating sexual and social instincts from sp. I don't care if you later stack them or not, you have separated them on the first place; that's arbitrary.
If you're unable to see that, then I give up. It's not my fault that your head is made of bricks :17425:



Were you aware that we are not talking about individual personality but about types of personality? Every characteristic of a person can give clues to find the type, and ty type allow a global understanding of their personality.Enneagram has never been supposed to explain every behaviors and characteristics of a person, but only the problematic behavior which arises when they are entranced and in autopilot. You're off-topic.

I haven't doubted the validity of enneatypes. Don't distort my words.


Theses parameters are not put aside, but took in account to find the type. There can also be behavior which has not anything especially to do with the personality type. It does'nt matter, the type and the instinctual variant are dignosis, it has never been supposed to describe every characteristics of a person, such system is impossible to buld and would be totalitarian, that does'nt make theses dignosis less accurate and arbirtrary.

Exactly, and since you can't measure each and every parameter, what's the point of measuring sex, social and sp inclinations? Either you analyze every possible subgroup, parameter and characteristic, or you just leave the general groups as they are. Enneatype and wing are enough to describe personality, and help people to see their fixations and surpass them.
Instinctual stackings are just describing particular behaviours, which change over time depending on lots of factors; knowing that somebody is more interested in sex than in social interactions is not more important than knowing if that person is more or less inclined to religion. It says nothing about their personality, it helps nobody.


I don't take it as personal offense, I simply don't have patience with idiots.

Don't make me laugh, sonny. You've taken this personally from the very begining. And you're the only idiot here, a blind follower of a system, totally unable to examine even the slightest criticism. You've proved several times in this thread how little rationality you have, answering both me and other posters with dogmatic sentences, insults and without logical argumentations.

But well, I'll leave you in peace with your beliefs. There's no point in continuing this discussion. It's like discussing evolutionist theories with christian fundamentalists. We're not going to reach any conclusion with this.
And above all, I haven't started this thread and the theme they wanted to discuss here is not this one.

Have a nice day.

:beathorse:
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Social factors aren't innate characteristics, they're external to the person, and are the source (together with personality, which is indeed acquired, and other factors: biological and so on...) of people's approach to sex, society and sp.

The social place where you live and your biologic characteristics are innates, your enenatype and your instinctual variant is aquired, if you don't know that, you're stupid.

There's no such thing as instinctual stackings causing these behaviours;

Prove it.

they depend on lots of different things, and fluctuate according to personal circumstances (as opposed to personality, which remains stable).

People who get the same social factors display different behaviors, while people who have the same instinctual variant display similars behavior despite their differents social factors. Proof that of the existence of an empiric phenomenon.

Sexual and social needs only arise once the person has satisfied his/her most basic needs (food, drink, shelter); only then they become their primary interest.

If you had any knowledge about the instinctual typology, you would know that this is precisely what it says. You just proved your ignorance. STFU and go back to school.

Prove it, prove it, prove it...:rolleyes: That's your answer for everything, but you haven't proved anything from your side yet; you've just rambled about how much do you know Lady Gaga, and how stupid is everybody except you.


I have brought FACTS. Proved the indisputable effect of wing and instincts in just two pics. While on your side you have nothing else than intelectual masturbation and dumb criticism. Speculation without any concrete facts.

Which scientists?


I don't have the time to bring you a lesson about biology, sorry.


All instincts are the result of evolution, all of them serve the purpose of survival.

Nothing in enneagram says the contrary and I've never said the contrary. You are'nt bringing new ideas here but just an guy who does'nt know what he is talking about and is involved in dumb criticism for the sake of it: a troll.

In this way, all instincts are self-preservational.

Nonsense. The self-pres instinct's role is to assure your survival in the realm of self-preservation, while social's is to assure your survival in the social realm and sexual's to assure your survival in the realm of one-to-one relationships. But of course you are ignorant of that.

You're separating sexual and social instincts from sp. I don't care if you later stack them or not, you have separated them on the first place; that's arbitrary.

Every scientific categories are arbitrary by definition, that does'nt mean they are not accurates.

xactly, and since you can't measure each and every parameter, what's the point of measuring sex, social and sp inclinations? Either you analyze every possible subgroup, parameter and characteristic, or you just leave the general groups as they are.

You can analyse a group as it it and leave it be as it is. An analysis is not a control. And who talked about "measuring"?

Enneatype and wing are enough to describe personality, and help people to see their fixations and surpass them.

The enenatype and wing show one side of people, the instinctual variant another. The instinctual variant is often more visible than the enenatype itself, nd combined with the enenagram, help to identify an essential emotional coping strategy, an so "help people to see their fixations and surpass them". Plus it helps to find the enneatype of people with more accuracy.


Instinctual stackings are just describing particular behaviours, which change over time depending on lots of factors

No. Like the enneatype, the instinctual variant arise during the childhood development and last a lifetime.

knowing that somebody is more interested in sex than in social interactions is not more important than knowing if that person is more or less inclined to religion.

It's not because it does'nt interest you that it's not useful. And the instinctual variants can help to understand what drive someone to be interested with religion.

It says nothing about their personality, it helps nobody.

Prove it.

a blind follower of a system, totally unable to examine even the slightest criticism. [|/quote]

I can consider inteligent criticism. But it's not what you did so far. I was very skeptical about enneagram and instinctual typology at first, but I studied it and eventually jusdged that it was accurate. I'm not a blind follower. Except if I'am a blind follower for not saying you "jawhol mein fürher, you' re right" and be a blind follower of you.

You've proved several times in this thread how little rationality you have, answering both me and other posters with dogmatic sentences, insults and without logical argumentations.

I've never seen any logical argumentation in thoses who contradicted me on that topic, including you. All I seen is VagrantFarce playing the 12 years old kid saying "instinctual typlogy is too much difficult for me, so it's useless", and some blind followers of him.

But well, I'll leave you in peace with your beliefs. There's no point in continuing this discussion. It's like discussing evolutionist theories with christian fundamentalists. We're not going to reach any conclusion with this.
And above all, I haven't started this thread and the theme they wanted to discuss here is not this one.


Yeah yeah.

I left you a chance to explain your "ideas" to see if you had any logical and insightfull argument to provide. But as expected you have nothing. So it's indeed better for you to stop now than continue and admit your defeat. Have a nice day.
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
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sx/sp
bcs catches my atention your loudy-childisdh-attention hungry boy attitude...

Now im outta here...

Don't you find taylor's "argumentation" childish as well? It's normal in this case if I answer in a childish way. I try to be at his level.
 

Richardsen

New member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
162
MBTI Type
IxFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Don't you find taylor's "argumentation" childish as well? It's normal in this case if I answer in a childish way. I try to be at his level.

The 2 are engaged in a useless discusion, taylor too.
But if the two want... keep it this way and debate, to me is pointless and boring.
 

Vizzy

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
229
Enneagram
5w4
The 2 are engaged in a useless discusion, taylor too.
But if the two want... keep it this way and debate, to me is pointless and boring.
...ideally in another thread.

So...is everyone bored with talking about instinctual variants now?
 
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