• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[sx] The Sx dom (re: Hazashin's question for me)

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I've been thinking lately about the Sx allure. Hazashin's question to me on my wall about the Sx having to be alluring is based on an assumption. How can you know if you're alluring unless someone tells you? If you're like me, then you'll be so standoffish that nobody will have a chance to say anything. If you're like me, women will stare in your direction then suddenly look away so you won't notice it. In my case, I have a wife to tell me these things. She said the first thing she noticed about me before we actually met was my aura. I didn't know I had an aura until she told me. Secondly, I didn't know other women were staring at me until she told me the first times we went out together in public places. I remember how she whispered in my direction, "Did you know women are staring at you..." I told her I had noticed something like that before, but I thought it was because something was wrong with me, maybe they thought I was ugly or dress funny. She replied that it was for just the opposite reason.

I don't think this Instinctuals theory is going to be easy to sort out. It seems to take the entire typology question to a much deeper level. And I don't think the test I took was very good if it determined me to be the Sp, and none of the alternative results even mentioned Sx.
 

foxonstilts

New member
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
56
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
3w8
I don't mean to sound rude, but is there a question here or something to be discussed? XD I'm also doped up on pain medication, so it's perfectly understandable if I'm missing something.

But anyway, I'm an sx dom and just recently realized it. I do a lot of enneagram research and like to consider myself as knowing a lot about it (it's my typology of choice ;)) but variants have always been my downfall. But anyway, sx/sp, much like yourself! Only 7w8 and not 5w4.

But yes, I do have the "allure" thing. I don't really like to talk about it, because that seems very self-absorbed or vain or whatnot, but I do. And it is both a good thing and a bad thing. I'm not the best "people person" and don't relate to them, usually, but somehow whenever I like someone, I fall a little bit in love with them. I think that's the "intense connection" that is so associated with sx doms. I don't separate my feelings into "oh this person is an acquaintance, this person is a friend, this is my BEST friend, and this is my boyfriend." They're all equal in my mind (the the chagrin of my significant other, as to be expected.)

Some of this is probably core type-related, too.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I don't mean to sound rude, but is there a question here or something to be discussed? XD I'm also doped up on pain medication, so it's perfectly understandable if I'm missing something.

But anyway, I'm an sx dom and just recently realized it. I do a lot of enneagram research and like to consider myself as knowing a lot about it (it's my typology of choice ;)) but variants have always been my downfall. But anyway, sx/sp, much like yourself! Only 7w8 and not 5w4.

But yes, I do have the "allure" thing. I don't really like to talk about it, because that seems very self-absorbed or vain or whatnot, but I do. And it is both a good thing and a bad thing. I'm not the best "people person" and don't relate to them, usually, but somehow whenever I like someone, I fall a little bit in love with them. I think that's the "intense connection" that is so associated with sx doms. I don't separate my feelings into "oh this person is an acquaintance, this person is a friend, this is my BEST friend, and this is my boyfriend." They're all equal in my mind (the the chagrin of my significant other, as to be expected.)

Some of this is probably core type-related, too.

That's another thing needing to be sorted out, the distinction between the various type theories. Instinctuals is not enneagram. Instinctuals did not grow out of the enneagram. Instinctuals stand alone, therefore if I wanted to call myself an INTP Sx/Sp, I have every theoretical right to do so. I'm just saying. It just so happens that the Instinctuals and enneagram came into being around the same time and originated with the same enneagram theorists, especially Oscar Ichazo.

Is there a specific question? I have only offered Hazashin an answer. Perhaps the best answer for him would be to ask someone, because it took 20 or more years for someone to volunteer the information to me. I don't think it's the case that every new thread has to start with a question.

Oh yes, congrats on discovering your variant type. It's not that easy, is it.
 

foxonstilts

New member
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
56
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
3w8
That's another thing needing to be sorted out, the distinction between the various type theories. Instinctuals is not enneagram. Instinctuals did not grow out of the enneagram. Instinctuals stand alone, therefore if I wanted to call myself an INTP Sx/Sp, I have every theoretical right to do so. I'm just saying. It just so happens that the Instinctuals and enneagram came into being around the same time and originated with the same enneagram theorists, especially Oscar Ichazo.
Oh, well that explains a load, actually. They're usually associated together by many theorists I've read, so I just kind of flopped them together. That's a good thing to know herpderp. Thanks for clearing that up and making my life a little easier. XD I was trying to figure out how they tied together when they seemed fairly separate and so on and so forth. My eyes have been opened, thanks to you, Mal12345!

Either way, I do think it's an interesting read. :)
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Oh, well that explains a load, actually. They're usually associated together by many theorists I've read, so I just kind of flopped them together. That's a good thing to know herpderp. Thanks for clearing that up and making my life a little easier. XD I was trying to figure out how they tied together when they seemed fairly separate and so on and so forth. My eyes have been opened, thanks to you, Mal12345!

Either way, I do think it's an interesting read. :)

I added a little bit more to the end of my previous post. I often do that. Believe it or not, I'm here to help and I know a great deal of historical background on the enneagram. I just don't parade it forth. And I read the entire Fourth Way book back in the early 90's, it took almost an entire summer to wade through that massive tome.
 

foxonstilts

New member
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
56
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
3w8
Do you have any good sources for the variants? I've seen them mentioned in a few Palmer books (which helped me out more than her type-descriptions did), but it's harder to find what seems to be reliable sources for them compared to Enneagram. I think the reason it's harder to figure out variants is because a.) looking online provides different descriptions that are in depth,and b.)there are only three so there's more wiggle room in what you're figuring out so nothing will fit Absolutely Perfectly.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Do you have any good sources for the variants? I've seen them mentioned in a few Palmer books (which helped me out more than her type-descriptions did), but it's harder to find what seems to be reliable sources for them compared to Enneagram. I think the reason it's harder to figure out variants is because a.) looking online provides different descriptions that are in depth,and b.)there are only three so there's more wiggle room in what you're figuring out so nothing will fit Absolutely Perfectly.

There may be good sources out there, meaning, sources that are generally recognized as good. I saw a $30 booklet for sale online. The problem is, I see a lot of theory but not practice which is contained in descriptions. I believe that the various descriptions might contradict and they only come together on the issue of vitality. Sx has more vitality than So, which has more vitality than Sp. But what does that mean? And doesn't that meaning change depending on enneatype?

When my 5w4 friend frequents bars and likes to party, while I as a 5w4 prefer to stay home and read a good book, does that mean he has more vitality than me?

If this Instinctuals question is a work in progress, then there's not much we can do. And I haven't read the $30 booklet on the subject, I don't spend that much money on booklets. :)
 

MacGuffin

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,710
MBTI Type
xkcd
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I've been thinking lately about the Sx allure. Hazashin's question to me on my wall about the Sx having to be alluring is based on an assumption. How can you know if you're alluring unless someone tells you? If you're like me, then you'll be so standoffish that nobody will have a chance to say anything. If you're like me, women will stare in your direction then suddenly look away so you won't notice it. In my case, I have a wife to tell me these things. She said the first thing she noticed about me before we actually met was my aura. I didn't know I had an aura until she told me. Secondly, I didn't know other women were staring at me until she told me the first times we went out together in public places. I remember how she whispered in my direction, "Did you know women are staring at you..." I told her I had noticed something like that before, but I thought it was because something was wrong with me, maybe they thought I was ugly or dress funny. She replied that it was for just the opposite reason.

I don't think this Instinctuals theory is going to be easy to sort out. It seems to take the entire typology question to a much deeper level. And I don't think the test I took was very good if it determined me to be the Sp, and none of the alternative results even mentioned Sx.

Maybe you aren't sx? Most things you write (including this post) seem to come from an sp viewpoint.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Maybe you aren't sx? Most things you write (including this post) seem to come from an sp viewpoint.

Maybe? But I read the descriptions on the Oceans-moonshine page many times over (and tried to avoid making a rush judgment about this), wrote about myself on this forum which was very helpful, and a few light-bulbs later I made a decision.

I've changed my mind on many issues thanks to this place. :) Hopefully, for the better.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
http://www.enneagram.net/products.html#ISTBooklet

"An in-depth compilation of all 27 subtypes as described by Naranjo. Palmer, Riso, Hudson, Condon, Rhor, Baron & Wagele and others as well as in the "verbatim" language of the Enneagram types themselves.

This research booklet includes the major authors descriptions of the Instinctual Subtypes, the internal versus external perception, point bias, cultural bias, stress and security, look-a-likes, color photo collages and results of the latest research."

This is a link to a $35 booklet on Instinctual subtypes. It makes the mistake of calling them subtypes. They are not subtypes. Should I trust this book because of that one mistake? I wouldn't buy it for that much, but if someone wants to gift it to me...
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Let's make this thread about me for a moment. I started it anyway. :p Recently I changed my Instinctual typing from Sp/So to Sx/Sp. Here is the Sp/So description found at the oceans-moonshine site:

"sp/soc
This type is generally private and reserved, and especially serious and practical minded in their focus to gain material security and in making useful connections that support their goals."

Not me.

"When they do form a connection, loyalty is very important to them and they will not hesitate to end a relationship on grounds of disloyalty."

Not me.

"This type may lack a certain degree of interpersonal warmth which can give the impression of coldness or disinterest in others, even a sense of selfishness."

I'm that way on first sight, not later.

"May be drawn to groups that attract like minded individuals, as in business clubs or volunteer organizations where a shared professional culture can facilitate social bonds."

Not me.

"They tend to live conservatively and dress in an inconspicuously appropriate fashion befitting their status in life."

I'm fairly indifferent to style of dress, socially speaking. I dress to please myself.

"May have a characteristically blunt and direct style of communication that can take others some getting used to."

That's fairly characteristic of my core enneatype anyway.

"They are particularly strong in matters of commitment and sacrifice, and enjoy being the benefactors in assisting society's practical needs."

Not me.
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
You are 5w4, so hardly relate on the stereotypycal Sp/So description, wich does'nt mean you are not Sp/So. You are clearly closer to The Simpsons's Comic Book guy than Kurt Cobain. Sx/Sp for you is laughable.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I've been thinking lately about the Sx allure. Hazashin's question to me on my wall about the Sx having to be alluring is based on an assumption. How can you know if you're alluring unless someone tells you? If you're like me, then you'll be so standoffish that nobody will have a chance to say anything.

As you mention later, I think it's individual type differences (as well as the broad category type differences) among SX-styled people that can answer this question.

I've got a pretty good sense of how I come off, but then again, I've spent my whole life perfecting this ability to look at myself as if I were someone else or from a particular person's POV. I have some emotional hangups that sometimes muddy my trust in my perception of myself, but typically I've aware of when I'm saying/doing something that someone might find alluring and when otherwise I'm just kind of being boring.

(I think it's something that plays into the arts too, since I use the same sense when I'm performing music, as part of weaving a dialogue with the audience.)

You are 5w4, so hardly relate on the stereotypycal Sp/So description, wich does'nt mean you are not Sp/So. You are clearly closer to The Simpsons's Comic Book guy than Kurt Cobain. Sx/Sp for you is laughable.

You got any basis for this, aside from your proclamation? Just curious.
You're kind of channeling Technical here.

Let's make this thread about me for a moment. I started it anyway. :p Recently I changed my Instinctual typing from Sp/So to Sx/Sp. Here is the Sp/So description found at the oceans-moonshine site:

"sp/soc
This type is generally private and reserved, and especially serious and practical minded in their focus to gain material security and in making useful connections that support their goals."

Not me.

"When they do form a connection, loyalty is very important to them and they will not hesitate to end a relationship on grounds of disloyalty."

Not me.

"This type may lack a certain degree of interpersonal warmth which can give the impression of coldness or disinterest in others, even a sense of selfishness."

I'm that way on first sight, not later.

"May be drawn to groups that attract like minded individuals, as in business clubs or volunteer organizations where a shared professional culture can facilitate social bonds."

Not me.

"They tend to live conservatively and dress in an inconspicuously appropriate fashion befitting their status in life."

I'm fairly indifferent to style of dress, socially speaking. I dress to please myself.

"May have a characteristically blunt and direct style of communication that can take others some getting used to."

That's fairly characteristic of my core enneatype anyway.

"They are particularly strong in matters of commitment and sacrifice, and enjoy being the benefactors in assisting society's practical needs."

Not me.

A lot of "nots" but what about all the others? For example, is there a reason pure SP doesn't measure up?

foxonstilts said:
But yes, I do have the "allure" thing. I don't really like to talk about it, because that seems very self-absorbed or vain or whatnot, but I do. And it is both a good thing and a bad thing. I'm not the best "people person" and don't relate to them, usually, but somehow whenever I like someone, I fall a little bit in love with them. I think that's the "intense connection" that is so associated with sx doms.

Wow, that resonates. Yeah, that's kinda what it feels like.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
As you mention later, I think it's individual type differences (as well as the broad category type differences) among SX-styled people that can answer this question.

I've got a pretty good sense of how I come off, but then again, I've spent my whole life perfecting this ability to look at myself as if I were someone else or from a particular person's POV. I have some emotional hangups that sometimes muddy my trust in my perception of myself, but typically I've aware of when I'm saying/doing something that someone might find alluring and when otherwise I'm just kind of being boring.

(I think it's something that plays into the arts too, since I use the same sense when I'm performing music, as part of weaving a dialogue with the audience.)

You got any basis for this, aside from your proclamation? Just curious.
You're kind of channeling Technical here.

I have been taking this page as authoritative on the subject. I've read other pages and I like this one the best, so far:
http://ocean-moonshine.net/e1428573...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=42&MMN_position=80:80

Your display pic seems very Sx to me.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Your display pic seems very Sx to me.

Yup. Those sorts of pictures resonate with me.
Some people read it as "F". Which I guess in a way it could be, but I think it's broader than that (there's aesthetics, and deepness, and mystery, and resonance, and... well... you know, a "charge" lurking there). It's evocative.

And you are wrong. There's many errors an this page.

Your continual refusal to provide even the barest modicum of support for your conclusions is quickly eroding any value your opinions might provide. Why not actually make a thin attempt at a dialogue, even if you really don't care?

The your on other side.

Oh, I just love Word Unscramble!
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
A lot of "nots" but what about all the others? For example, is there a reason pure SP doesn't measure up?

I would like to avoid creating a wall'o'posts about me, myself and I. I will say that I also read the "Familiar Roles" at that page, such as "Familiar Roles: the businessperson, the responsible citizen, the pillar of society"
and it just doesn't add up.

And the Sp description says, "Self Pres people instinctively avoid certain foods and environments, and are likewise drawn to those things that nourish and sustain them. Sp's have a strong reaction against things that threaten to harm their comfort or health." In the past I've been quite the opposite, at times I will actually seek out and confront danger.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I would like to avoid creating a wall'o'posts about me, myself and I. I will say that I also read the "Familiar Roles" at that page, such as "Familiar Roles: the businessperson, the responsible citizen, the pillar of society"
and it just doesn't add up.

About the "wall of posts" -- why not? Because you'd like to treat the topic more generally? Your OP was all about you and an example of how you don't identify with the "allure" thing, so it's natural people would first question whether you are SX and want to clarify what variant you are likely to be, before deciding to progress and start creating subcategories of SX based on your atypical experiences.

And the Sp description says, "Self Pres people instinctively avoid certain foods and environments, and are likewise drawn to those things that nourish and sustain them. Sp's have a strong reaction against things that threaten to harm their comfort or health." In the past I've been quite the opposite, at times I will actually seek out and confront danger.

ANything else that doesn't match from SP? Especially if you are an N and not an S, I wouldn't weigh that particular trait too heavily. remember, we're also talking three BROAD categories, and it's pretty likely that not every characteristic at the extreme strength described is going to match someone who fits into a category.
 
Top