Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts SP/SX versus SO/SX

[Sunny Ghost]

Those are the two I relate to the most. I'm constantly back and forth with the two.

Now, you guys have seen photos of me, collages by me, and in general, maybe seen enough of my personality, my stories and interaction here around the forum.

Anyone have any stabs at this? Or any way to truly determine?

 

[brainheart]

Stabs? No, other than I know you and I have gone through the same thing, the sx for sure being present but probably not dominant. Did you look at those notes I wrote in the social instinct thread, those might be helpful. I know for me what sealed it is how impractical I am and disinterested in money, clothing, food, etc (sp), vs I am very socially aware (if not particularly socially involved), always giving social commentary, etc, talking about ' people' in groups. When unhealthy I get very antisocial, even down to interacting with the cashier at the grocery store. And I spend too much time on here, I guess cause I like the social interaction of discussing this stuff. And... The so/sx 4 and 5 descriptions fit me the best, even if I didn't want to admit it.

(also, if you can get a hold of it, I think the wisdom of the enneagram describes the instincts the best, although ocean moonshine and the ones on 9 types are pretty good, too.)

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Those are the two I relate to the most. I'm constantly back and forth with the two.

Now, you guys have seen photos of me, collages by me, and in general, maybe seen enough of my personality, my stories and interaction here around the forum.

Anyone have any stabs at this? Or any way to truly determine?

sp/sx: Comes out as somewhat heavy and gloomy, or cool and detached. Often gives out a suffocating and insular vibe, as if their internal world is wrapped around by an impermeable membrane. Strong sensory impressions designed to awake sexuality. Makes one want to linger on one or two lines forever.

soc/sx: The word "fantastical" comes to mind. Lots of virtuosity and trills, and often removed from the real world. One is whirled away by the dazzling fairies of their colorful imagination. Can be too rich in imagery for their own good. Sustained dramatic power due to their knowledge of interpersonal dynamics.

Illustrated by examples.

Hugh Effner is a 7w8 Sp/Sx: analitycal, aloof, reserved and gloomy, also sexaholic and linger somewhat in one or two sensual lines or try somewhat to form connection and bonds with others, but above all confort oriented. Same for Bruce Willis, confort-seeker, unconplicated with his desires, but aloof and remote. Preserve themseves

[youtube=1DGkHDhcHZ8]Hugh Effner 7w8 Sp/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=EqMoUYddoF4]Bruce Willis 7w8 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

Richard Branson, him, is a 7w8 So/Sx, and sis completely different: lot of crazy energy moving around around, fantastical, enlarge himself, form connection with the interviewer but has a hard time to not be distracted by what happens around.

[youtube=5BrKiG1cUPA]Richard Branson 7w8 So/Sx[/youtube]

Quentin Tarantino is So/Sx too: enlarge himself, don't preserve himself, actually full of energy and let that push him and push us whatever if he loses his breath.

[youtube=auIn_TTuJhQ]Quentin Tarantino 7w8 So/Sx[/youtube]

An example of Sp/Sx is Batman: the dark night, intense, but reserved, practical, do his own thing and stay away from bigger social spheres that he does'nt give a damn about. Solitary.

[youtube=NCO9oZdVJws]Batman 8w7 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

While Superman places a lot of importance to be connect with larger social spheres and get approval of social institution. While Batman defends his personal justice, Superman sees him as the protector of the whole humanity, and accept to takke that role officially. No wonder that he was the founder of the Justice League, while Batman is an aloof member who help the League from time to time but fundamentally preserve himself and defend his territory, Gotham.

[youtube=oUcKJflBG8Q]Superman 2w1 So/Sx[/youtube]

Superman and Batman, while allies, have a marked antagonism. When Superman says to Batman that he is waited at Metropolis, Batman sordonically asks "the mayor give you the City's Key again?".

Other antagonist of Batman is of course the Joker. To the dark, rational, and austere Dark Night, is opposed a colored, irrational and exuberant clown.

[youtube=TuYNE9tNt8I]The Joker 7w8 So/Sx[/youtube]

Jack Nicholson is a 7w8 So/Sx himself, same for Johnny Rotten who is, like Joker, of the antisocial variety of social. Sp/Sx are never antisocial, thay are asocial, which is completely different.

[youtube=QJm97o-4qYI]Johnny Rotten 7w8 So/Sx[/youtube]

Han Solo is an archetypal example of Sp/Sx: reserved, efficient, independant, assertive but preserve his energy, stay allof from bigger structure even when he share the same ideas. Don't care about social stuff, but care about the mess.

[youtube=e1YbFnkZwZk]Han Solo 8w7 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

Ras Al Ghul is an So/Sx him, completely invested in his empire and his global cause to enlarge himself, no sort of self-preservation.

[youtube=O9Nkh2G443A]Ras Al Ghul 8w7 So/Sx[/youtube]

Always from the DC Universe, Scarecrow is an Sp/Sx: grows in depth to explore intensity, preserve himself, seek confort, dark, gloomy, harsh, not connected to any sort of larger structure, just connected with himself and one or two thing at a time he has lingered on. Very similar with Batman.

[youtube=owaMoWmD2vE]Scarecrow 5w6 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

While The Riddler is an So/Sx: goofy, energetic, crasy, colorful and innovative, driven to enlarge himself and not in touch with the basic problems of common sense and survival. Again, you can see the contrast with the Sp/Sx Batman.

[youtube=h8hreK2kL6g]The Riddler 5w6 So/Sx[/youtube]


Ian Curtis, Buster Keaton and David Lynch are 5w4 Sp/Sx. Wery projected inward, in their own mind and ideas, linger on tough, private line, sometimes in orger to awake sensuality and explore intimacy.


[youtube=TWwclXfQQdY]Ian Curtis 5w4 Sp/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=DlkdtS8OFlA]Buster Keaton 5w4 Sp/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=ZPc1N7kf_AQ]David Lynch 5w4 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

In comaparaison, Staley Kubrick, Tim Burton and Alain Resnais, are 5w4 So/Sx. Staley Kubrick is of the more rude variety, but still completely projected outward, in the larger world to explore and express his ideas. Tim Burton and Alain Resnais, are typycall smiling and sociable So/Sx. So/Sx want to be enlarged by their activities, and don't see their individuality as an important thing, while Sp/Sx are involed in indidual activitities and are aloof to enlarge them toward groups or larger sphere.

[youtube=bdKHuyhhyuM]Stanley Kubrick 5w4 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=x8x7Tuvd2BE]Tim Burton 5w4 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=gTg_knL4cks]Alain Resnais 5w4 So/Sx[/youtube]

Victoria Bergsman and Ray Lamontagne are Sp/Sx, they are focused on siomple thing, their own world, their safety and are not projected outward.

[youtube=bAOmO3eqZKs]Victoria Bergsman 4w5 Sp/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=xj1IQZfznsQ]Ray Lamontagne[/youtube]

Shirley Manson is a 4w5 So/Sx. Completely oriented to the outward and enlarge themselves toward colourful imagination, groups and social influence. Charming , goofy and playful.

[youtube=vMoaIgGWo_o]Shirley Manson 4w5 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=zwgH5NvxmXA]Allen Ginsberg 4w5 So/Sx[/youtube]

Calista Flockart and Anna-Sophie mutter are Sp/Sx. Hard-working, reservedn explore their passions in private, sensual but not connected to larger sphere.

[youtube=W-b5waTDQpM]Anne Sophie Mutter 6w7 Sp/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=94xtJryqgEY]Calista Flockart 6w7 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

Amanda Bynes and Brittany Murphy are 6w7 So/Sx. Need I really to comment? See how exuberant they are in comparaison.

[youtube=dcriFNNDx1c]Amanda Bynes 6w7 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=jlbwEhvEGI0]Brittany Murphy 6w7 So/Sx[/youtube]

Some Sp/Sx are more energetic and exuberant than the average, wich can be confusing.

Mila Kunis is a 6x7 Sp/Sx and can be mistyped as Social because she's really extrovert, but she's very aware of her material interest and never forget to preserve it or to be steady. She still relatively reasonable. It's pretty clear in contrast with the 6w7 So/Sx Harley Quinn who is histrionic and socialy dependant withou any drive to preserve herself.

[youtube=9MV0CyahL8E]Mila Kunis 6w7 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

[youtube=AwAKQ9hGLuY]Harley Quinn 6w7 So/Sx[/youtube]

See also the differences between the reserved and self-contained Jennfer Lopez and the more gregarious Robe Lowe. J-Lo is more reserved and focued on Ellen only, Rob is more relaxed and tunred to the audience.

[youtube=gopfqwvaf9c]Jennifer Lopez 3w2 Sp/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=Tv0gP5zbgeE]Rob Lowe 3w2 So/Sx[/youtube]


Some So/Sx are actually reserved, rational and self-contained. Gregory House, Zoé Saldana, Snoop Dogg, Easy-E and Frank Zappa or Ronald Reagab are like this. But they are actually very involeved in the social realm, and many love to challenge social conventions to get audience's attention, wich is a typycal So thing that Sp/Sx don't give a damn about. Arsenio Hall is So/Sx too.

[youtube=dNQCZ8lnnjw]Gregory House 5w6 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=2Z-wMiqCl-g]Zoe Saldana 6w7 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=O24JLNincTM]Snoop Dogg 7w8 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=d94N0vJmDvA]Easy-E 7w8 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=8ISil7IHzxc]Frank Zappa 8w7 So/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=YxXYzaWmQkA]Ronald Reagan 9w8 So/Sx[/youtube]

Some are phlegmatic, but that does'nt mean they don't care about the larger social sphere, they basically apllies the Bruce Lee's motto "be water". And Bruce Lee was So/Sx too.

Some So/Sx have social phobia and can withdrawn because of paranoia and anxieties, but still have that primal energy who connect them to the social realm. See, for example, the difference betwwen the gloomy, tough and reserved but wordly Karl Largerfeld and the light, fantastical, exuberant but agoraphobic Karen O.

[youtube=-qSwvmzOG_0]Karl Lagerfeld 4w3 Sp/Sx[/youtube]
[youtube=VMY6wJb-aSs]Karen O 4w3 So/Sx[/youtube]

But a strong point is that Sp/Sx are focused above all on their private buisness, and don't need to be connected with a larger social sphere except if that give them confort, at an extreme point, they are so asocial that they don't mind if the entire oustide world collapse. While So/Sx are focused above all on social affairs, expand themselves toward groups and tend to be oblivous about preserve themseves from risk or about maintain boundaries

[youtube=o4SvoTQFq1o]Mr Freeze 1w9 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

[youtube=44kBN340vd4]Gandal 1w9 So/Sx[/youtube]

Is it clear?

 

[Elfboy]

[youtube=gopfqwvaf9c]Jennifer Lopez 3w2 Sp/Sx[/youtube]

off topic, but Jennifer Lopez is 3w4

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I think I relate far more to SP/SX with the descriptions you provided [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION].

However, I think I have moments that look similar to SO. Such as being aware of others feelings in group, and not wanting others to feel left out. Also, I recall an Allen Ginseng interview where he touched on how he sometimes feels tormented between what he wants and what others (like his family or society as a whole) wants and expects of him. And I related a lot to that feeling, or at least used to.

Also, I'd read 4w5 descriptions before of the instincts, and related to the whole, being very analytical of how others perceive you, etc. Like if I do something stupid, I'll go home and kick myself over the head a millions times because of it.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

I think I relate far more to SP/SX with the descriptions you provided [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION].

However, I think I have moments that look similar to SO. Such as being aware of others feelings in group, and not wanting others to feel left out.

That's simply to be empathic and sensitive to other's needs, not Social.

Also, I recall an Allen Ginseng interview where he touched on how he sometimes feels tormented between what he wants and what others (like his family or society as a whole) wants and expects of him. And I related a lot to that feeling, or at least used to.

Fi users are sensitive to other people's need, you can be called Social if you feel enlarged by the group and the group's cause and instinctively seek that feeling.

Also, I'd read 4w5 descriptions before of the instincts, and related to the whole, being very analytical of how others perceive you, etc. Like if I do something stupid, I'll go home and kick myself over the head a millions times because of it.

Image concious: 4.

It makes no doubt for me that you are Sp/Sx.

Sp/Sx care above all about confort and safety, So/Sx don't care about that.

 

[brainheart]

That's simply to be empathic and sensitive to other's needs, not Social.



Fi users are sensitive to other people's need, you can be called Social if you feel enlarged by the group and the group's cause and instinctively seek that feeling.



Image concious: 4.

It makes no doubt for me that you are Sp/Sx.

Sp/Sx care above all about confort and safety, So/Sx don't care about that.

All of the instincts are present in everyone, it's a matter of the order. So/sx are going to care about comfort and safety, just to a lesser degree.

IAJ, social 4w5s (and 5w4s) can often look the furthest thing from social. If they've been hurt socially or felt alienated socially (which how can they not?) they will often retreat and become very antisocial and depressed, thereby looking more sp. The way you can tell the difference is, the withdrawn social will be very aware of this slight, turning it over and over in their head. They will hate the system, but feel tied to the system. Calvin from calvin and hobbes is a perfect example of this, as is the writer james baldwin.

Yes, all fours feel shame and are image conscious, but the social four REALLY feels it.

 

[brainheart]

Here, james baldwin:

[video]http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fw atch%3Fv%3DRt-WgwFEUNQ&v=Rt-WgwFEUNQ&gl=US[/video]

 

[Speed Gavroche]

All of the instincts are present in everyone, it's a matter of the order. So/sx are going to care about comfort and safety, just to a lesser degree.

To a minor degree.

IAJ, social 4w5s (and 5w4s) can often look the furthest thing from social. If they've been hurt socially or felt alienated socially (which how can they not?) they will often retreat and become very antisocial and depressed, thereby looking more sp. The way you can tell the difference is, the withdrawn social will be very aware of this slight, turning it over and over in their head. They will hate the system, but feel tied to the system.

Yes, but non-social don't feel tied.

Calvin from calvin and hobbes is a perfect example of this, as is the writer james baldwin.

James Baldwin is a 4w5 but Calvin is a 5w4.

Yes, all fours feel shame and are image conscious, but the social four REALLY feels it.

Above all, Social 4 have an instictive drive to seek hate or honor/recognition, that So-last have not.

 

[brainheart]

above all, Social 4 have an instictive drive to seek hate or honor/recognition, that So-last have not.

I know this is a non-native english language issue, but I'm unsure what you're saying. Could you maybe clarify?

 

[brainheart]

Fi users are sensitive to other people's need, you can be called Social if you feel enlarged by the group and the group's cause and instinctively seek that feeling..

I'd say it's more like feel a need to belong/find a place in the group, do something that will have social impact. You instinctively consider how your actions affect society or the planet as a whole.

I read an interview with a writer once and she was talking about how she had to write these very personal things about her parents in her memoir, even though she knew it would probably ruin her relationship with them, because she had to be honest in her expression, it was more important than anything. This struck me as a so last 4 pov. Yes, I feel the urge to be honest, but my instinctive pull is to preserve my social ties above else. I would hate myself if I were to do what she did, but she seemed proud of it. This has been one of the bigger obstacles in my life, as allen ginsberg said, "if i'd thought my daddy would read howl, I never would have wrote it."

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Social 4 want to be special and get that feeling from a social status, but they are conflicted with that quest for social statues and their quest for authenticity, when the both are combined they obtain Honor and it's what they seeked, but if they can't have it (and they often feel that they can't because of shame), they prefer to be a monster than to be banal, and to be hated rather than indiference.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

I'd say it's more like feel a need to belong/find a place in the group, do something that will have social impact. You instinctively consider how your actions affect society or the planet as a whole.

No. You can care about other people's needs with seek for a social status.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I'd say it's more like feel a need to belong/find a place in the group, do something that will have social impact. You instinctively consider how your actions affect society or the planet as a whole.

I read an interview with a writer once and she was talking about how she had to write these very personal things about her parents in her memoir, even though she knew it would probably ruin her relationship with them, because she had to be honest in her expression, it was more important than anything. This struck me as a so last 4 pov. Yes, I feel the urge to be honest, but my instinctive pull is to preserve my social ties above else. I would hate myself if I were to do what she did, but she seemed proud of it. This has been one of the bigger obstacles in my life, as allen ginsberg said, "if i'd thought my daddy would read howl, I never would have wrote it."

I don't really have a strong desire to have an impact on the group. However, I can relate to the Allen Ginsberg quote. I DO care about what people that know me, think of me. Especially family and friends and coworkers. But I also want to be what is intrinsically me. I used to feel such a strong dissonance due to this, until I finally felt as though my family fully accepted me for who I was. However, I still seek their approval... though I may feel passionately attracted to someone, I may feel embarrassed about bringing them home to mom, dad, and sister, due to the judgments they may have towards this person. I'd like to ideally find someone that makes me happy, as well as has the approval of my family. I'm always concerned with what others think. I dislike this aspect of myself, but it's there. I'm incredibly cautious when I interact with others, only allowing them what I am comfortable with them seeing of myself. I'm not antisocial or overly social, but would often prefer to just not be noticed altogether. But I feel as though I have a presence that can't be contained, if that makes any sense. I'm always fully aware of myself and of others in my presence, and often wished I were invisible altogether. As an adaptation to my surroundings, I can be charming, bubbly, friendly.

I think all three of my instincts are fairly close. But maybe I'm wrong. I also wonder if the things I believe are me being social are more self preservationist and sexual. I'm also single, which I've heard make people appear more social oriented, because you have to put yourself out there in order to fulfill the sexual need for connection.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Social 4 want to be special and get that feeling from a social status, but they are conflicted with that quest for social statues and their quest for authenticity, when the both are combined they obtain Honor and it's what they seeked, but if they can't have it (and they often feel that they can't because of shame), they prefer to be a monster than to be banal, and to be hated rather than indiference.

I can't relate to this at all.

...I think what would probably be more on key, is wanting to do something "grand" or "special" for the attention of one particular person. That's more sexual than social.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

I can't relate to this at all.

That means that ou are not social.

Hurrah, you found your answer, we can close the thread.

 

[brainheart]

Social 4 want to be special and get that feeling from a social status, but they are conflicted with that quest for social statues and their quest for authenticity, when the both are combined they obtain Honor and it's what they seeked, but if they can't have it (and they often feel that they can't because of shame), they prefer to be a monster than to be banal, and to be hated rather than indiference.

From wisdom of the enneagram:

Social fours:

In the average range, social fours most seethemselves as unlike others, unique. Their uniqueness is both the gift they bring to others and the burden they must bear.

The most socially active and engaged fours, they long to be involved with others and part of the social world, but often feel they don't know how. Like threes, they constantly compare themselves to others, always feeling they come up short. They desire to be among the elite, but doubt they are up to it.

Feelings of shame in social settings eventually lead social fours to believe they don't know how to function like normal people. They envy the happiness of others, while rejecting them as crude and insensitive. They frequently adopt a glamorous, exotic image to cover over their social insecurities. Many social fours become attracted to alternative lifestyle groups to compensate.

Some social fours may aggressively pursue success as a compensation for their nagging feelings of inadequacy. They react strongly to any statements about themselves, often sifting through past conversations for any hint of a slight. Ironically, they may both defend their defects and feel disadvantaged by them.

In the unhealthy range, fear of rejection can lead social fours to withdraw almost completely from involvement with others. Shame and expectations of humiliation become so pervasive that they don't want to risk being seen. At the same time, their insecurities render them unable to work in any consistent way. As a result, social fours often become extremely dependent on family, friends, or a significant other. Isolation along with fantasies of achievement may cause unhealthy social fours to waste their lives.

What you say about monster vs banal... I could see maybe a sexual four thinking that way, but not most social fours. (note the some social fours paragraph... Not ALL.) But yes, indifference sucks. But so does being a monster.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Social fours:

In the average range, social fours most seethemselves as unlike others, unique. Their uniqueness is both the gift they bring to others and the burden they must bear.

The most socially active and engaged fours, they long to be involved with others and part of the social world, but often feel they don't know how. Like threes, they constantly compare themselves to others, always feeling they come up short. They desire to be among the elite, but doubt they are up to it.

Feelings of shame in social settings eventually lead social fours to believe they don't know how to function like normal people. They envy the happiness of others, while rejecting them as crude and insensitive. They frequently adopt a glamorous, exotic image to cover over their social insecurities. Many social fours become attracted to alternative lifestyle groups to compensate.

Some social fours may aggressively pursue success as a compensation for their nagging feelings of inadequacy. They react strongly to any statements about themselves, often sifting through past conversations for any hint of a slight. Ironically, they may both defend their defects and feel disadvantaged by them.

In the unhealthy range, fear of rejection can lead social fours to withdraw almost completely from involvement with others. Shame and expectations of humiliation become so pervasive that they don't want to risk being seen. At the same time, their insecurities render them unable to work in any consistent way. As a result, social fours often become extremely dependent on family, friends, or a significant other. Isolation along with fantasies of achievement may cause unhealthy social fours to waste their lives.

Some SO descriptions I relate to more than others, so I can never fully decide. It sometimes makes me think that there isn't really anything holding the theory together. I feel like I can somewhat relate to the above.

 

[brainheart]

Some SO descriptions I relate to more than others, so I can never fully decide. It sometimes makes me think that there isn't really anything holding the theory together. I feel like I can somewhat relate to the above.

Well, you use all the instincts, and being a four, you're going to use them in a four way. No offense to speed, but I don't know where he gets his info from, and what I'm citing here is considered one of the more authoritative books on the enneagram. That said, I agree it's confusing. If I were you, I'd just go to the basic, not enneatype specific descriptions of the instincts, and just really observe your thoughts, actions, impulses and see what seems to come up the most (that is if you're not currently falling in love or you have to buy a house or you lost a job or you have some big social event cause that might skew things a bit.)

 

[King sns]

http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-4.html

have you seen this site? It helped me immensely with my instinctual variant.