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[sx] Question to sx/sps

BlackCat

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So, you know when you feel betrayed by someone? When you've let them in on your sx side, connected with them, and you thought it was safe, and then they backstabbed you or hurt you in some way? Then after that you close off all contact with them and never speak to them again; never think of them again.

Well, what if you needed (keyword NEEDED) to get on good terms with them again? But you didn't feel safe about it.

What would you do?
 

runvardh

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Haven't found the need to yet, fortunately. I'd probably, fruitlessly try to find ANY alternative I could first, regardless of obstacles.
 

BlackCat

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Haven't found the need to yet, fortunately. I'd probably, fruitlessly try to find ANY alternative I could first, regardless of obstacles.

yeah the main problem is that it's my mom. Normally I just would stop caring, but this is an interesting situation. I really NEED to be on good terms with her, but I just can't bring myself to open up to her or care at all. She crossed a few lines after a good amount of warning, and I basically just "checked out" and never came back.
 

runvardh

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yeah the main problem is that it's my mom. Normally I just would stop caring, but this is an interesting situation. I really NEED to be on good terms with her, but I just can't bring myself to open up to her or care at all. She crossed a few lines after a good amount of warning, and I basically just "checked out" and never came back.

I don't seen anything compelling enough. I find an alternative that works, there always HAS to be one that works :wacko::blush:
 

Thalassa

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You may snap out of it eventually. You may just need time away from her to grow as a young adult, and when you feel more self-actualized, you may find it easier to connect with her again.

This is kind of what my experience was with my parental figures...and I'm a few years older than you. I had to take that initial space, but it was very healing and important to eventually got back and reconnect as an adult with a different perspective.

I'm not saying that's easy. But hopefully you'll be able to create a certain connection with her eventually that also has the kind of boundaries you need so that you don't get hurt too much.
 

ilovereeses

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You may snap out of it eventually. You may just need time away from her to grow as a young adult, and when you feel more self-actualized, you may find it easier to connect with her again.

This is kind of what my experience was with my parental figures...and I'm a few years older than you. I had to take that initial space, but it was very healing and important to eventually got back and reconnect as an adult with a different perspective.

I'm not saying that's easy. But hopefully you'll be able to create a certain connection with her eventually that also has the kind of boundaries you need so that you don't get hurt too much.

Agreed. I can only willingly be friends with someone again if either they apologize (and actually mean it), or lots of time goes by and I either forgot about it, or came to accept it, seeing it from their perspective.
 

BlackCat

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Thanks for the replies. I did feel that I just needed to give it time, but my mom feels really offended about it and doesn't understand (even though I've told her).

She just tries to control my life, acts like a complete bitch, and gets offended when I stand up for myself. She is a bully to everyone (including me), and then doesn't understand when people get mad at her. She calls it "owning her truth," lol, it makes her sound like a sociopath. She "owned her truth" toward me and got what she had coming for her.
 

runvardh

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My mother is similar yet more passive aggressive about it. Then again, I put the wall up at about 10 years old so she was never allowed into SX space. She has still managed to hurt me at times, but I never let her get close enough to the critical systems to make me not want to be anywhere near her. It has been interesting trying to remind my mother that I don't hate her and she's still my mommy (I just can't trust her is all), but she has taken the lack of trust as hate. I've tried to work on her anyway, and now she's not as insistent that I hate her, but still quite hurt that I don't trust her. I can live with it, though it's not the optimum relationship with her that I'd like to have. Sorry I can't be much help past that.
 

Totenkindly

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So, you know when you feel betrayed by someone? When you've let them in on your sx side, connected with them, and you thought it was safe, and then they backstabbed you or hurt you in some way? Then after that you close off all contact with them and never speak to them again; never think of them again.

I typically do not do that -- or, what I mean, is that I can't permanently shut someone out if I sense they've repented / changed and are no longer the person they were. I can do it only as long as they are the person who betrayed/backstabbed me.

Sometimes i hate that part of myself and I feel jealous of those who can just maintain the wall. There are people I really was hurt by, who I wanted to hate, but I just can't do it; later, after they had changed and were no longer the person who had hurt me... I couldn't keep the blockage in place.

Well, what if you needed (keyword NEEDED) to get on good terms with them again? But you didn't feel safe about it. What would you do?

Needed? I can't even imagine what that sort of situation would involve.

First I would look for ANY alternative. And I mean ANY alternative. I don't like having to pretend, if I don't trust someone or dislike them immensely. Nowadays I'm far more apt to either ignore them, or else basically tell them what I think of them to their face -- mainly to get them to go away and not get in my space anymore.

I guess if I really needed them for something and had no other good options, I would allow a casual relationship -- just enough for my purposes -- to develop, but it would be no more at all than I needed. And it would be cordial at best, but I would not place anything of value to me into that relationship; they get superficial and non-vulnerable details and that would be it.

You may snap out of it eventually. You may just need time away from her to grow as a young adult, and when you feel more self-actualized, you may find it easier to connect with her again.

This is kind of what my experience was with my parental figures...and I'm a few years older than you. I had to take that initial space, but it was very healing and important to eventually got back and reconnect as an adult with a different perspective.

I'm not saying that's easy. But hopefully you'll be able to create a certain connection with her eventually that also has the kind of boundaries you need so that you don't get hurt too much.

My parents really screwed me up in my childhood. Neither were dependable. My mom had the better intentions but she still wasn't "safe" per se... nor could I depend on her to understand or do anything that was really important; she was also very sensitive and clingy in her own way. My dad was far more selfish and was not safe at all.

It took me YEARS after I became an adult, with my own children, before I could deal with my mom. In the meanwhile, I basically kept things cordial but refused to get to too close to her. It was far too easy to get enmeshed. The more that I found my own independence and she actually learned to build her own life and not hinge so much on the attention and relationship with her children, I could allow myself to get closer to her. But it takes time. It does happen with normal people -- asserting one's dependence, and then being able to be close to one's parents -- but takes awhile. There is always a time of breaking away where someone becoming an adult needs space to become independent, and if the parents do not allow that to happen, then the child has to break away, put up boundaries, and get a sense of their own safety and independence before going back.
 

BlackCat

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It has been interesting trying to remind my mother that I don't hate her and she's still my mommy (I just can't trust her is all), but she has taken the lack of trust as hate.

Yeah same here. It kinda sucks.

Basically I am a very territorial person when it comes to my stuff and my house. I have an irrational fear of people coming into my room and seeing the things that I like, what I'm all about, etc. People that I don't want in there. Ever since I can remember she's reorganized my room when in wasn't to her liking, or it was too "cluttered" or "not organized enough." And then I'd tell her to not, every time, and she wouldn't change her ways. So when I got older and more independent, I'd get angrier and angrier when she did that. And every time she would, I'd lose something. That would piss me off a lot. It got to a point where I'd get more and more hostile toward her when she'd do that, and I'd purposefully hide some of her things from her just to show her how it felt to have your shit touched.

Fast forward, I have my own place. She needs to stay there for a night, alright. The problem is that I live in a single wide trailor; and she's insanely emotionally overbearing. And I'm tired when she gets there. So she gets mad at me in about 15 minutes because I'm tired and I don't want to listen to her emotional crap. And when she gets mad (aka emotionally hurt), she turns into a bully. So then she asks why I haven't found a girlfriend, and I explain that there really aren't that many girls/people in general that I like. Then she for some reason asked if I were gay with my best friend since I hang out with him a lot, which made me really pissed off. Then she started "cleaning" and reorganizing my stuff because "she can't live in clutter," and then she just asked way too many annoying questions, pushed me too far and pissed me off to the point where I basically said "never come back to my house again, and don't call me." And it's been about two months since that happened, and I have left her one voice mail since then in response to one she left (out of like 15 times she's tried to call me).

yeah. this is just really annoying to me. sorry if I'm being way too personal/venting my shit on here; and I wanted some perspective.
 

Thalassa

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then doesn't understand when people get mad at her.

My mom has this problem, too, seriously; except instead of bullying she nags and pokes at people and tries to provoke them then acts like a victim when they get pissed.

However, she seems to have developed more self-awareness in the past couple of years. I think between me and my three sisters we've worn her down into some kind of self-reflection FINALLY.
 

JocktheMotie

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Do you need to really reconnect in that SX way? I mean, I shut my mom out too for good after she essentially left my dad to rot but that doesn't mean I can't still superficially interact with her when the situation calls for it. From her perspective, she probably just sees an empty shell, since I don't give her any information about my life.
 

wolfy

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...
She just tries to control my life, acts like a complete bitch, and gets offended when I stand up for myself. She is a bully to everyone (including me), and then doesn't understand when people get mad at her. She calls it "owning her truth," lol, it makes her sound like a sociopath. She "owned her truth" toward me and got what she had coming for her.

I imagine the only real response is to say that each person has the right to "own their truth". It seems the best thing would be to drill down and break that by working down from that statement to each person's right to their own independence.


..

Basically I am a very territorial person when it comes to my stuff and my house. I have an irrational fear of people coming into my room and seeing the things that I like, what I'm all about, etc. People that I don't want in there. Ever since I can remember she's reorganized my room when in wasn't to her liking, or it was too "cluttered" or "not organized enough." And then I'd tell her to not, every time, and she wouldn't change her ways. So when I got older and more independent, I'd get angrier and angrier when she did that. And every time she would, I'd lose something. That would piss me off a lot. It got to a point where I'd get more and more hostile toward her when she'd do that, and I'd purposefully hide some of her things from her just to show her how it felt to have your shit touched...

It isn't irrational to want your own space. When people I care about bother me with things I try to get down to what is behind it with them. And then explain my view, what I want. That is all I have.

I'm thinking that maybe it might help to think of your relationship with her. Rather than her thinking in general. That angle is a lot easier to control.

I'm not sure about the sx thing, I might not even be sx dom, probably sp. But anyway, it seems you might need to take a hard stance and hope time heals and brings back a connection.
 

ragashree

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Not sure how enneagram plays into this at the moment, I am getting some possible ideas however. But can I ask what Mbti type your mother is, Blackcat? I was assuming an Fe dominant type, either ESFJ or ENFJ; it's the only one that's really fitting so far.
 

Salomé

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I really NEED to be on good terms with her, but I just can't bring myself to open up to her or care at all. She crossed a few lines after a good amount of warning, and I basically just "checked out" and never came back.
Given time, you can be on good terms without letting someone back in to wound you again. Is your "need" a psychological one, or a practical one?

She sounds like a typically overbearing SFJ mother who is having trouble letting you go. You need to establish some boundaries, communicate them, and don't allow her to trespass over them. This should be easier since you have your own place. Sometimes it helps if you script an interaction ahead of time and don't allow yourself to deviate from it. Yes, it feels stilted and it goes against your SX nature, but it makes the situation safer and easier to manage. If she starts to trample over them, tell her that her behaviour is unacceptable and ask her to leave. This is your space and your rules apply. Better yet, meet her on neutral ground which will make it easier for you to leave if there is any unpleasantness.

And don't think you are being irrational or overreacting. I know exactly what it feels like when a parent consistently undermines you in order to maintain some kind of authority. People get into habits that are hard to break out of and she probably genuinely thinks she's being helpful. But her behaviour is self-serving and abusive and it's not something you have to put up with just because she's your mom. At the same time, cutting her out of your life completely should be a last resort, for your sake.

I typically do not do that -- or, what I mean, is that I can't permanently shut someone out if I sense they've repented / changed and are no longer the person they were. I can do it only as long as they are the person who betrayed/backstabbed me.

Sometimes i hate that part of myself and I feel jealous of those who can just maintain the wall. There are people I really was hurt by, who I wanted to hate, but I just can't do it; later, after they had changed and were no longer the person who had hurt me... I couldn't keep the blockage in place.
Yeah. I have the same problem.
 

runvardh

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Black Cat... I'd still be hard pressed to let my mother stay with me just because when you give her an inch she takes the whole parsec. Mine never went into my room to re-organize though, she's just an emotional hurricane that only takes when things are given and rarely gives back in return. Your situation reminds me of when I made my first attempt to do better with my mother and only got taken advantage of. I left 6 months after I moved in.

Why is your mother living with you?
 

BlackCat

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Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Given time, you can be on good terms without letting someone back in to wound you again. Is your "need" a psychological one, or a practical one?

Practical.

She sounds like a typically overbearing SFJ mother who is having trouble letting you go. You need to establish some boundaries, communicate them, and don't allow her to trespass over them. This should be easier since you have your own place. Sometimes it helps if you script an interaction ahead of time and don't allow yourself to deviate from it. Yes, it feels stilted and it goes against your SX nature, but it makes the situation safer and easier to manage. If she starts to trample over them, tell her that her behaviour is unacceptable and ask her to leave. This is your space and your rules apply. Better yet, meet her on neutral ground which will make it easier for you to leave if there is any unpleasantness.

And don't think you are being irrational or overreacting. I know exactly what it feels like when a parent consistently undermines you in order to maintain some kind of authority. People get into habits that are hard to break out of and she probably genuinely thinks she's being helpful. But her behaviour is self-serving and abusive and it's not something you have to put up with just because she's your mom. At the same time, cutting her out of your life completely should be a last resort, for your sake.

Yeah. I have the same problem.

Yeah, you're right. I guess all I can do is have a casual relationship with her but not get too close. And I do need to give it time.

This is just weird because it was basically the total opposite with my dad. He encouraged me to gain independence, he is totally not clingy at all, yeah (but he's an INTP). I was trying to do basically the same thing with my mom, respectfully gain a distance but maintain a healthy relationship. Meh.

My mom is an ENFJ 1w2 sx/so by the way. I've gotten her to read up on the functions, enneagram, all that jazz.

Black Cat... I'd still be hard pressed to let my mother stay with me just because when you give her an inch she takes the whole parsec. Mine never went into my room to re-organize though, she's just an emotional hurricane that only takes when things are given and rarely gives back in return. Your situation reminds me of when I made my first attempt to do better with my mother and only got taken advantage of. I left 6 months after I moved in.

Why is your mother living with you?

Ohhh I meant just for a few nights. We tried moving out of state together; nearer to her family and where she grew up (and near to a city) and then I basically left because it sucked. So she has come to visit a couple of times since she has some business to attend to up here occasionally.
 

Totenkindly

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This is just weird because it was basically the total opposite with my dad. He encouraged me to gain independence, he is totally not clingy at all, yeah (but he's an INTP). I was trying to do basically the same thing with my mom, respectfully gain a distance but maintain a healthy relationship. Meh.

Heh, well, YEAH, that's exactly how a textbook INTP would approach it. I give my kids lots of space too and refuse to meddle or make their decisions for them, no matter how close I would like to be with them; in terms of parenting, I realize my entire bent is towards making them autonomous, self-reliant, capable, and curious about life.

There's also a gender skew in our society where the moms (who usually have to handle the hands-on child rearing from day one, taking care of a child's basic needs physically and later emotionally) sometimes bond more closely with the child and form part of their identities around that role, and have to necessarily and actively loosen the bond up as the child becomes older. It can be very difficult for some, depending on their personality.
 

runvardh

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Ohhh I meant just for a few nights. We tried moving out of state together; nearer to her family and where she grew up (and near to a city) and then I basically left because it sucked. So she has come to visit a couple of times since she has some business to attend to up here occasionally.

I'd say there are the rules to follow or she doesn't have to come by. When the tears come, ignore them; when she has a fit, ensure she knows where the exit is. Don't show anger, don't show frustration, don't show sadness; give it matter of fact and leave it at that. It's what it took to train my mother, though she never has business anywhere near where I live now. It's rough and it is painful, I will not delude you on that; but it's your home and your life and she's only visiting, not in charge - not anymore.
 

KutthroatKawaii

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This sounds like typical ESFJ Mom problems to be honest. You might feel as though you're the one being odd or betraying in the relationship for demanding your own privacy, your own personal space and your own life, but really I assure you that this is all normal and healthy. She is not respecting you as an adult. It sounds like she was taking out her anger over the changed/tensed relationship between you two out on you in a very inappropriate, fascist way. You have every right to have been and to be angry and to enforce your boundaries. It is not your job to mend her "broken trust" (this is her trying to make you begrudgingly personally responsible for HER needs. Fe users experience interpersonal, external harmony as personal, and unfortunately our society trains women to feel selfish and helpless around asking for their needs directly. It will take time and a lot of standing up for yourself to relax that compulsion in her towards you so that you two can engage more healthily). It is up to you to decide what kind of relationship you want with her, what you will and will not tolerate, and then establish and enforce that.

If I were you i'd take a good while to cool off beforehand if you choose to re-engage with her again. When you do, you have to be prepared to lead and maintain leadership over the dynamic of the relationship (you will be met with tantrums, victimy woe-is-me, i'm-so-innocent-and-you're-an-evil-ahole crying, finding insecurities to make you question yourself, and guilt-tripping. Don't fall for it.) Otherwise she will take over and keep demanding and acting out on you in these ways that you're familiar with, which is obviously unsustainable. Eventually, things should improve.

I hope this helps!
 
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