ADHD

[Frosty]

I've been intentionally engaging with the external environment lately, and I've found this to help my depression immensely. However, what I've noticed is that my ADHD has completely exploded. Like my mind is running in too many directions sometimes and I keep getting distracted. It's not in an anxious neurotic way either, it's more like I'm scattered and forgetful. The mafia game really showed me how bad it's gotten. It was hard for me to remember who did what and who was what role and it was hard for me to settle on certain strategies in the moment. This carries over into my daily life when I'm trying to get stuff done. I'll sort of do that confused back and forth thing where I forget what I JUST decided to do and it takes me a second to get back on track.

It's frustrating because I'm realizing how pervasive it is.

This may or may not be the case- not a doctor and all- but anxiety can also help trigger things like this. Stress can do crazy things to a person

 

[Population: 1]

I've been intentionally engaging with the external environment lately, and I've found this to help my depression immensely. However, what I've noticed is that my ADHD has completely exploded. Like my mind is running in too many directions sometimes and I keep getting distracted. It's not in an anxious neurotic way either, it's more like I'm scattered and forgetful. The mafia game really showed me how bad it's gotten. It was hard for me to remember who did what and who was what role and it was hard for me to settle on certain strategies in the moment. This carries over into my daily life when I'm trying to get stuff done. I'll sort of do that confused back and forth thing where I forget what I JUST decided to do and it takes me a second to get back on track.

It's frustrating because I'm realizing how pervasive it is.

I’m right there with you. I start a list of things I need to get done and will jump from item to item and be moving about my apartment on one task see another that needs doing and drop what I was doing to start that job instead of just jotting it down. Next thing I know two hours have passed and I’ve completed maybe 25% of each task I set out to finish. It’s frustrating, like I need a guide to navigate things in a reasonable way.

 

[Frosty]

I’m right there with you. I start a list of things I need to get done and will jump from item to item and be moving about my apartment on one task see another that needs doing and drop what I was doing to start that job instead of just jotting it down. Next thing I know two hours has passed and I’ve completed maybe 25% of each task I set out to finish. It’s frustrating, like I need a guide to navigate things in a reasonable way.

Yep all the time. Ill have my hand in multiple things and then for a second- like time will freeze and my whole brain will just go blank.

Its actually a good thing because then I can collect myself and start talking myself through tasks. Slowly.

My dad calls me a spaz because of it- and it is a bit spazzy- but its also- well like starry said. Its like we, with ADD are running on high stress JUST to compensate. This. I just think this ‘spazziness’ is normal sometimes when you are working SO HARD.

And you learn from the spazziness. Or I do. Its hard to explain how- but I have learned from it. Just how to roll with it. And sometimes... yes. Good things DO happen from it. Like insights and stuff

 

[Dreamer]

Yes. It bugs me. Not that people do it- I mean that bugs me a bit too- but that people, once they know Im on it- ASK me for it like im just going to hand it out like candy- no big deal.

But it is a big deal. I dont EVER give it out to anyone. Ever. Thats just not something that I do because- it IS a drug that I sort of need (though I only take it on and off now because it makes me unable to eat much and gives me on and off anxiety)- if they want to go through all thecrap of getting it prescribed to them- fine. But its a pain in the ass. And they dont realize it. That its not just fun and games.

I dont know. ADD drugs- honestly- I get less mad about people not understnading THEM then I do about them not understanding other drugs for some reason. Because- well. ADHD has less stigma I think than other things- people might not take it seriously- but there is a lot more understanding and a lot less judgement- when people are really asked push comes to shove- againsy people with ADHD than people who take other mental health related drugs. There might be shitty jokes- but most people recognize those jokes AS jokes- when with other things- people actually really do believe their misconceptions/jokes.

True Fros. Comparing to other challenges one can be faced with like Bipolar or Schizophrenia, ADHD really doesn't have as bad of a rap I've found, at least what I've picked up on growing up. People make jokes about it, people tease me about it on occasion, and ya, some misconceptions float around which may color some people's ideas of me, but I feel it's relatively accepted on the whole. The amount of public awareness I think has been a large part of it, and I feel like it's common enough where everyone may know at least one person with it in their life so there's that bit of personal exposure as well.

And ya, having people asking you all the time for some pills is really irritating. Almost for that reason alone I didn't tell anyone in school I have ADHD. I almost didn't mind the stigma and perceptions that can come with the label at that point. I just wanted to be left alone.

Oh, and I should say, when friends tease me about it, I don't take offense to it AT ALL, like...I actually like it haha. Teasing, playing around with people is just my way to connect and bond with people so that's just the "language" I use in my interactions with people.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Whichever variation you have, what have been your personal challenges with it? How did you manage those challenges? Have you come up with any coping mechanisms or strategies to better work with and manage your symptoms?

The only way I've found to manage the challenges is to make a very firm routine for myself (when I walk in the house, the keys are always put in the same place - I've spent upwards of 4 hours searching for keys, and this happens when ANYTHING isn't put in its place), and write down lists like crazy. And then don't be too hard on myself when I mess something up, so that I can bounce back quickly.

If there is at all any silver lining to being "blessed" with this animal, where do you find it to be?

Only in the sense that (like any challenge) it can broaden my compassion, if I let it.

Do do you feel it owns you or that you own it? If you find yourself in the category of feeling like you own ADHD and not the other way around, what strategies have you used to get you to that level?

I don't know if either of these would apply. I accept it's there, but I don't feel like I own it or that it owns me.

I have stashes of books - I even keep a bag of books in my trunk, there's usually two in my bag- that I want to read, but it's like I can't choose which book I want to read. It's more like the book chooses me. It's actually why I carry so many around with me, because I never know which one the instant gratification monkey in my head will let me read.

*Oddball MBTI related question thrown in for fun :

There is a perception out there held by some, understandably, that ADHD is essentially Ne, or vice versa. That is, if you see someone either with ADHD or Ne high in their stacking and proficiency (I'd imagine the ENPs appear as the ADHD type, and the INPs appear as the ADD types) then the two are interchange.

So, the questions that follows are: Have you mistyped yourself or others, to your knowledge, due to the sometimes similar outward behaviors between the diagnosis and the function? Do you think there is some relationship between the two?

I've never been mistyped myself because of it, but I do suspect it leads people to think they're Ps when they're actually Js.

Has anyone been diagnosed with chronic fatigue/fibro resulting from having lived too long with undiagnosed ADD/ADhD? I'm still learning all about this but apparently these are linked. I was actually diagnosed with cfs/fibro first and then later Inattentive ADD.

To the best of my current understanding...people with undiagnosed ADD/ADhD unknowingly use anxiety and/or a state of hyper alertness in order to get by like "regular folk" do... like I actually notice this when I'm driving in traffic this hyper alert state...and then eventually the body says "fuck you".

Anyone?

I got diagnosed with inattentive ADD as an adult.

This is interesting to me because I have Chronic Pain Syndrome, and I've read in at least a couple of places that it (and issues like it, with mention of Fibro) seems to be caused by constant flight-or-fight feelings causing excessive cortisol to get released during adolescence/development. I've forgotten the specifics, but anyway, I suspect this hyper alertness would be the same thing. It hadn't occurred to me to consider that as one of the reasons I constantly felt anxious while growing up. But yeah, I can see it.

Gabor Mate and Gordon Neufeld have interesting theories about attention issues. I'm pretty sure I've read something from Neufeld, but Mate is the only one I'm remembering offhand. He thinks that ADD/ADHD is caused by lack of secure attachment in the first couple years of life - that it leaves a person with constant distraction. Mate has also written a book about chronic pain that I really liked: When the Body Says No. (It's one of the books I was referring to above).

 

[Starry]

:I had a response and just lost it Z Buck... no restore content for me today apparently. I'll be back... But it sucks so bad to have ADD and lose shit.

 

[Starry]

I’m right there with you. I start a list of things I need to get done and will jump from item to item and be moving about my apartment on one task see another that needs doing and drop what I was doing to start that job instead of just jotting it down. Next thing I know two hours have passed and I’ve completed maybe 25% of each task I set out to finish. It’s frustrating, like I need a guide to navigate things in a reasonable way.

I did housework yesterday Pops which means my place is now messier than it was before.

*edit: whoops I mean my fortified castle is messier...

 

[Starry]

I got diagnosed with inattentive ADD as an adult.

This is interesting to me because I have Chronic Pain Syndrome, and I've read in at least a couple of places that it (and issues like it, with mention of Fibro) seems to be caused by constant flight-or-fight feelings causing excessive cortisol to get released during adolescence/development. I've forgotten the specifics, but anyway, I suspect this hyper alertness would be the same thing. It hadn't occurred to me to consider that as one of the reasons I constantly felt anxious while growing up. But yeah, I can see it.

Okay...what the hell was I saying...

I know that I said how fascinating the above was to me. I mean, yes...when I was saying "hyper alertness/anxiety" I was definitely referring to the body's use of stress hormones in order to stay focused (I feel like the body teaches itself all on its own that cortisol is what works...it is like the body's own natural Adderal or nicotine or caffeine). What I didn't know was excessive levels during specifically -> adolescent development is what leads to future Chronic Pain and Fatigue but that somehow makes perfect sense to me. It makes me feel the need to rethink medicating teens which I have always been against. This information changes things for me.

The other thing this information has brought up for me...that I fear I won't present as well this second time around as I have lost some of my patience for rewriting it... But it is interesting to me that women are more likely to have Inattentive ADD and subsequently go undiagnosed (cause they aren't disrupting the public school classroom, etc.) until adulthood...and...women are more likely to develop Chronic Pain and Fatigue Syndromes. <-I almost want to say that women may also be more likely to immediately fear making an ass of themselves in a public/social situation as young people and "letting others down"...and may be more likely to start "doing cortisol." idk though...but I'm just thinking of girls and what they are like biologically and via social programming during adolescent development. <-Well and possibly all throughout life. It is very important not to let others down is it now...

Gabor Mate and Gordon Neufeld have interesting theories about attention issues. I'm pretty sure I've read something from Neufeld, but Mate is the only one I'm remembering offhand. He thinks that ADD/ADHD is caused by lack of secure attachment in the first couple years of life - that it leaves a person with constant distraction. Mate has also written a book about chronic pain that I really liked: When the Body Says No. (It's one of the books I was referring to above).

I know my Mom loved/loves me very, very much and I love her but I still feel I was more of an accessory to her...a reflection on her... so thank god I was adorable and always happy... in spite of not knowing what was going on around me (or because of it).

 

[Population: 1]

I did housework yesterday Pops which means my place is now messier than it was before.

*edit: whoops I mean my fortified castle is messier...

Hah. Yeah castles need minions. Let them do the cleaning. Note to self, gather minions.

 

[Starry]

Hah. Yeah castles need minions. Let them do the cleaning. Note to self, gather minions.

I'm kinda afraid of people and yet I do feel I could gather minions and convince them to clean easier than cleaning.

 

[Population: 1]

I'm kinda afraid of people and yet I do feel I could gather minions and convince them to clean easier than cleaning.

People minions? No. I meant like mutant bipedal animal servants, ala Isle of Dr. Moreau. Or maybe goblins or enslaved pixies or nymphs. People minions are for amateurs.

We digress. ADHD makes us masters of digression.

 

[Starry]

People minions? No. I meant like mutant bipedal animal servants, ala Isle of Dr. Moreau. Or maybe goblins or enslaved pixies or nymphs. People minions are for amateurs.

We digress. ADHD makes us masters of digression.

nothing is off topic here my new minion and friend.

 

[Population: 1]

nothing is off topic here my new minion and friend.

Woah! When did I become your minion? Crafty Starry. Very crafty indeed.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Okay...what the hell was I saying...

I know that I said how fascinating the above was to me. I mean, yes...when I was saying "hyper alertness/anxiety" I was definitely referring to the body's use of stress hormones in order to stay focused (I feel like the body teaches itself all on its own that cortisol is what works...it is like the body's own natural Adderal or nicotine or caffeine). What I didn't know was excessive levels during specifically -> adolescent development is what leads to future Chronic Pain and Fatigue but that somehow makes perfect sense to me. It makes me feel the need to rethink medicating teens which I have always been against. This information changes things for me.

The other thing this information has brought up for me...that I fear I won't present as well this second time around as I have lost some of my patience for rewriting it... But it is interesting to me that women are more likely to have Inattentive ADD and subsequently go undiagnosed (cause they aren't disrupting the public school classroom, etc.) until adulthood...and...women are more likely to develop Chronic Pain and Fatigue Syndromes. <-I almost want to say that women may also be more likely to immediately fear making an ass of themselves in a public/social situation as young people and "letting others down"...and may be more likely to start "doing cortisol." idk though...but I'm just thinking of girls and what they are like biologically and via social programming during adolescent development. <-Well and possibly all throughout life. It is very important not to let others down is it now...

Lol @ "doing cortisol".

I think it was the Mayo Clinic's book (Total Recovery: Solving the Mystery of Chronic Pain and Depression, by Gary Kaplan) that stated women were indeed more likely to suffer from the Chronic Pain Syndrome/Fibro/one other thing I'm forgetting (depression maybe), and that - even though it seems to be the consequence of way too much cortisol being released during adolescence - symptoms usually present in a person's 40s. There's a big thing about inflammation in the brain (which is there, ultimately, as a consequence of too much cortisol) I'm skipping over here because I'm rubbish as memorizing/regurgitating those kind of things. But anyway, I was like, "Oh snap." Because I perfectly fit the profile.

Normally cortisol is a good thing. For some reason (again, I'm crap at this). But over the years when the brain has had too much of it, something backfires (typically around the age of 40) and it causes excessive inflammation.

It's so frustrating to lose posts. You probably already know about this, but I have to ask: did you know about the "restore auto-saved content" option at the bottom right hand side of a reply box? If a post is lost, for whatever reason, you can usually get most of it back when you click on that button.

I know my Mom loved/loves me very, very much and I love her but I still feel I was more of an accessory to her...a reflection on her... so thank god I was adorable and always happy... in spite of not knowing what was going on around me (or because of it).

Yeah, it was much the same for me. Here are the attachment levels Neufeld put forth, that children need to move through while growing up in order to feel a strong attachment to their parents. There were good things about my mom, and it was incredibly important to her that everyone around her feel loved - but sometimes (usually) we were more an extension of that reality she wanted to project than we were individuals within it to attach to. I wonder sometimes if I even made it to stage two.

Here is the highest level of attachment (the descriptions at the link above are mediocre, so here's the one put forth by Neufeld himself in his book Hold On To Your Kids):

To feel close to someone is to feel known by them. In some ways, this is a recapitulation of attaching by way of the senses, except that being seen and heard are now experienced psychologically instead of strictly physically. In the pursuit of closeness, a child will share his secrets. In fact, closeness will often be defined by the secrets shared. Parent-oriented children do not like to keep secrets from their parents because of the resulting loss of closeness. For a peer-oriented child, his best friend is the one he has no secrets from. One cannot get much more vulnerable than to expose oneself psychologically. To share oneself with another and then be misunderstood or rejected is, for many, a risk not worth taking. As a result, this is the rarest of intimacies and the reason so many of us are reluctant to share even with loved ones our deepest concerns and insecurities about ourselves. Yet there is no closeness that can surpass the sense of feeling known and still being liked, accepted, welcomed, invited to exist.​

I included that^ just because I think it's beautiful. I don't imagine a great many kids actually get that completely, but personally I see it as a hyperbolic bubble of what I didn't get.

And anyway, Mate's theory (iirc, in his book Scattered) is that ADD/ADHD is a consequence of attachment milestones getting missed, particularly those before a child can talk. I think? Organic attachment provides security, and lack of attachment and its consequent insecurity causes a sort of vigilant distraction. In my case, at least, I can see it being true.

 

[Forever_Jung]

Not sure if it counts because I was never diagnosed coming up in school. By the time teachers and guidance counselors noticed something was amiss, it was grade 12 and they sort of just shrugged and said: "Oh shoot, it's kind of too late now! You were such a good kid, you kinda just slipped between the cracks, sorry"

The descriptions of how ADD manifests in girls definitely sounds like me as a kid. I couldn't pay attention for the life of me, but I was very concerned about not being disruptive and was afraid to talk out of turn. I tried to be very polite about never paying attention. I'm pretty sure I once told my 3rd grade teacher I was "Dreadfully sorry" when she caught me staring out the window.

In class though, I really bottled up everything and stewed in my own juices at school. I even ended up in anger management because one day I had like a breakdown/blow-up after being tormented by some kids. I put a lot of pressure on myself.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I can relate a little bit to this: ADHD Is Different For Women, in the Atlantic

In “The Secret Lives of Girls with ADHD,” published in the December 2012 issue of Attention, Dr. Littman investigates the emotional cost of high-IQ girls with ADHD, particularly for those undiagnosed. Confused and ashamed by their struggles, girls will internalize their inability to meet social expectations. Sari Solden, a therapist and author of Women and Attention Deficit Disorder, says, “For a long time, these girls see their trouble prioritizing, organizing, coordinating, and paying attention as character flaws. No one told them it's neurobiological.”​

At any rate, I think [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] will find it interesting.

 

[Forever_Jung]

I can relate a little bit to this: ADHD Is Different For Women, in the Atlantic

In “The Secret Lives of Girls with ADHD,” published in the December 2012 issue of Attention, Dr. Littman investigates the emotional cost of high-IQ girls with ADHD, particularly for those undiagnosed. Confused and ashamed by their struggles, girls will internalize their inability to meet social expectations. Sari Solden, a therapist and author of Women and Attention Deficit Disorder, says, “For a long time, these girls see their trouble prioritizing, organizing, coordinating, and paying attention as character flaws. No one told them it's neurobiological.”​

At any rate, I think [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] will find it interesting.

That's a great article! I'm not really sure which girls I went to school with ADHD, but it wasn't hard to spot the guys.

I'm not a girl, but the author's personal experiences really hit home for me! Also, I just remember always feeling very ashamed and awful about being so messy, scattered, and constantly losing/forgetting things. Everyone was always on me about it. I remember several times where a teacher (one who didn't even know me) would spot the state of my locker and makes me empty everything out and spend my lunch hour cleaning and organizing it. They would just stand over me and make little "tsk, tsk" noises, so everyone walking by knew I was a piece of shit. I just always felt sick to my stomach about it and embarrassed. Even now as an adult, I regularly have nightmares where I forget to clean up properly at work and everyone gets preposterously angry with me about it.

I wonder if the gender gap in symptoms relates to social conditioning? Or is it hormonal?

It's anecdotal, but I work with a young lady who definitely has the H in ADHD, but she was only raised by her sporty-freewheeling dad. She is a smart person, but scattered, forgetful, and from time to time will say and do immensely foolish things in a work environment (she's a bit of an impulsive groper).

Meanwhile on my end, I feel like my mom crushed my spirit (with good intent), much in the way we crush the spirits of young girls to ensure they are well-behaved.

 

[Starry]

Lol @ "doing cortisol".

I think it was the Mayo Clinic's book (Total Recovery: Solving the Mystery of Chronic Pain and Depression, by Gary Kaplan) that stated women were indeed more likely to suffer from the Chronic Pain Syndrome/Fibro/one other thing I'm forgetting (depression maybe), and that - even though it seems to be the consequence of way too much cortisol being released during adolescence - symptoms usually present in a person's 40s. There's a big thing about inflammation in the brain (which is there, ultimately, as a consequence of too much cortisol) I'm skipping over here because I'm rubbish as memorizing/regurgitating those kind of things. But anyway, I was like, "Oh snap." Because I perfectly fit the profile.

Normally cortisol is a good thing. For some reason (again, I'm crap at this). But over the years when the brain has had too much of it, something backfires (typically around the age of 40) and it causes excessive inflammation.

It's so frustrating to lose posts. You probably already know about this, but I have to ask: did you know about the "restore auto-saved content" option at the bottom right hand side of a reply box? If a post is lost, for whatever reason, you can usually get most of it back when you click on that button.

I was actually diagnosed very early on with cfs/fibro at age 20. the good news is I haven't noticed my symptoms in this regard getting any worse...BUT I have noticed as I've aged that now is the time for some radical changes or things could go south here quite quickly. Any form for any duration of desk work is going to be completely out of the question for me in the fast approaching near future this I can tell...and sugar and sodium can go to hell for what it does to my body...

this past summer I basically lived at the coast...camping or at my parents condo...and every morning I climbed shit breathing fresh air...logs, rocks, trees and I felt amazing...so strong...no pain.

my keyboard is freezing up hold on...

 

[Starry]

L



Yeah, it was much the same for me. Here are the attachment levels Neufeld put forth, that children need to move through while growing up in order to feel a strong attachment to their parents. There were good things about my mom, and it was incredibly important to her that everyone around her feel loved - but sometimes (usually) we were more an extension of that reality she wanted to project than we were individuals within it to attach to. I wonder sometimes if I even made it to stage two.

Here is the highest level of attachment (the descriptions at the link above are mediocre, so here's the one put forth by Neufeld himself in his book Hold On To Your Kids):

To feel close to someone is to feel known by them. In some ways, this is a recapitulation of attaching by way of the senses, except that being seen and heard are now experienced psychologically instead of strictly physically. In the pursuit of closeness, a child will share his secrets. In fact, closeness will often be defined by the secrets shared. Parent-oriented children do not like to keep secrets from their parents because of the resulting loss of closeness. For a peer-oriented child, his best friend is the one he has no secrets from. One cannot get much more vulnerable than to expose oneself psychologically. To share oneself with another and then be misunderstood or rejected is, for many, a risk not worth taking. As a result, this is the rarest of intimacies and the reason so many of us are reluctant to share even with loved ones our deepest concerns and insecurities about ourselves. Yet there is no closeness that can surpass the sense of feeling known and still being liked, accepted, welcomed, invited to exist.​

I included that^ just because I think it's beautiful. I don't imagine a great many kids actually get that completely, but personally I see it as a hyperbolic bubble of what I didn't get.

And anyway, Mate's theory (iirc, in his book Scattered) is that ADD/ADHD is a consequence of attachment milestones getting missed, particularly those before a child can talk. I think? Organic attachment provides security, and lack of attachment and its consequent insecurity causes a sort of vigilant distraction. In my case, at least, I can see it being true.

^^This actually choked me up a little reading that passage and you're right it's not even through recalling my own experiences...it is just the overall ache for the human condition. No, to this day my Mom doesn't know me...she can't help but involuntarily continue to try and guide me into some unknown role that will make her feel *something* about herself...but I love her because she continues to try. I lucked out though with a Dad that totally accepts me for who I am. Unfortunately, he wasn't my Mom (my household was traditional in that my Mom didn't work when we were very young while my Dad worked all the time...so my Mom was the attachment parent if that makes sense.)

these are amazing thoughts!

 

[Starry]

I can relate a little bit to this: ADHD Is Different For Women, in the Atlantic

In “The Secret Lives of Girls with ADHD,” published in the December 2012 issue of Attention, Dr. Littman investigates the emotional cost of high-IQ girls with ADHD, particularly for those undiagnosed. Confused and ashamed by their struggles, girls will internalize their inability to meet social expectations. Sari Solden, a therapist and author of Women and Attention Deficit Disorder, says, “For a long time, these girls see their trouble prioritizing, organizing, coordinating, and paying attention as character flaws. No one told them it's neurobiological.”​

At any rate, I think [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] will find it interesting.

This a million times over...thank you so much for this article Z Buck. Yeah, I didn't know I was intelligent until I was in college but this has been truly useless information... when you are unable to convince anyone else of this fact...