Why are vegan specialty foods more expensive than their counterparts?

[kyuuei]

Ive been rattling this in my head all day.

Disclaimer: This is not a statement on vegan lifestyles, vegetarian lifestyles, etc. etc. This is just trying to figure out if this is a profit thing or if there's some understandable mechanisms going on... From the specific perspective of: Vegans trying to convince meat eaters that are fundamentally okay with eating meat to eat less of it with the help of vegan-based meat product substitutions... and people going from vegan lifestyles from meat eating ones that maintain eating meat-like recipes and dishes.

The most common arguments I hear:

- The farming industry is subsidized. This is the most common one...
... To which I'd say ALL farming in America is subsidized, and the reality is? Vegans love to brag about all of the money and environment they're saving.. you're not spending money on feed, on water for the animals themselves, on antibiotics or medicines, on slaughterhouses and their equipment, etc. etc. That's a LOT of money saved there.. It does take more crop to equal the bulk and substance of animal meat's protein and calorie ratios, but then I'm back to the fact farming is a subsidized business no matter which side of it you go into. No google searching has seemed to provide any feedback on specific prices of why the plant matter costs more than the animals do, especially considering the end product at the stores is far cheaper in the produce than the meat sections. Any good useful data on why animals are actually cheaper than vegan meat replacements when it comes to the actual production of the components (versus paying for the ideas/development/experimentation and such) because of the farming subsidies would be useful.. but my searches for it have all come up with vague hippies saying probably this..

- it's a specialty/gourmet item.
... Sure, and those exist in meat-eater lifestyles as well.. but the "cheap" brand of vegan hot dogs do not come anywhere near close to the cheap items for meat eaters. .. It doesn't really make sense to say, "Just replace your hot dog with a can of beans."... Technically meat eaters can replace things as well.. so.. really, hot dog for hot dog, vegan hot dogs are much pricier per pound. I definitely feel like someone creating a vegan steak that even meat eaters can enjoy is worth some serious money for the idea, but it is still pandering to people well off with that... and the reality is, vegan lifestyles aren't going to catch on with poorer people anytime soon because of the lack of variety available to feel 'normal' in situations. You have to be making some bank to be able to throw some vegan dogs on the grill with your meaty counterparts whenever you want... So... the stuff that's pretty normal and standard for meat eaters becomes a special treat for vegans... Maybe that's cool for people prone to being vegan, but looking at it from someone not feeling guilty about eating meat, it seems like a horrible business model for trying to convert others.. I thought the whole idea was to save the environment and animals.. and making things super pricey isn't going to help get that done quick.

- It's a niche market.
... This has some value as well.. but we have soooo many mass producers in the vegan market now-a-days, I feel like this is less and less of an excuse. Vegan/vegetarianism is catching on with people and even though the percentage of full time vegans is veeerry small the people who eat vegetarian dishes is not at all, and in a world of whole foods, vegan meats being in every single grocery store ever, and stuff like that it seems like lots of people are perfectly willing to eat vegan--at times or full time. ... and with mass production, the vegetarian ingredients are cheaper than the meat ingredients.. I see them in the stores all the time. The produce is not the most expensive part of shopping--unless that produce is re-packaged into vegan food.

- Everyone prices up their convenience food.
... Very true. But.. When you have a movement based around the ideas that "if everyone did this we'd help the world" why would you play into that? You can just as easily opt out, still make a decent profit, but have it be affordable enough to cut out yet another excuse people would have to not go vegan.

- Vegan and organic tend to go hand in hand.
... This to me is one of the bigger obstacles. Vegans usually want organic produce for a variety of reasons, and organic is objectively more expensive than non organic farming. So mass producing a non-organic plant matter meat might fall pretty flat on the people who would actually be buying it.. But even with organic food being taken into account, surely it wouldn't raise the price per pound to what it currently is now.. Over $6 per pound for vegan ground beef versus $3-4 per pound for the real deal.

- You can't put a price on health!!!
... You absolutely can, and people do all the time. For me, that price is not $135 for the equivalent of $35 worth of meat. I don't want the discussion to turn to this side of things, because the reality is nutritionists and doctors are torn about the health benefits of not eating meat at all vs not eating as much meat, and people can get veerry bias about this very quickly.

I see a lot of people very quick to try to convince me to go vegetarian or vegan and the environmental or health benefits.. and.. in some ways, I'd probably be willing--but at the end of the day, everything for grocery shopping for me comes down to price. To a lesser extent, the health of the food, the ease of cooking it and how much I'll actually eat it. And at the end of the day, a package of hot dogs from cruel awful facilities that don't give a shit about their beef is 12 cents a dog for me, while vegan hot dogs come in packs of like 5 or 7 (what?!) for $4-6. For someone like me who doesn't feel guilt about eating animals, it just doesn't ever seem practical to do.. Especially with nutritionists torn about whether meat is bad for you or not,

 

[Thalassa]

I honestly don't know what you mean. Vegan lunch "meats" are the same price, or cheaper, than processed meats. I.e. Tofurky, one of my favorite brands, runs around 2.50. A holiday roast will run you maybe ten dollars. Super cheap meats like 99 cent hot dogs are literally run off guts and gristle. ..waste matter, really...same for spam or potted meat, so you honestly cannot compare that crap to vegan chkn nuggets, in terms of nutritional content, health safety, and so forth.

Artisan vegan nut cheeses run around the same price as fancy pretentious dairy cheese, and you're going to pay about the same for Daiya, as you do for real cheddar, sliced. Again what you're going to find cheaper is of low quality, like kraft singles and knock offs.

You honestly probably don't know how nasty what you're eating is, I'm not saying that hatefully...but I have friends who aren't vegan who wouldn't touch cheap hot dogs or ground beef with a ten foot pole. Ground beef is put through chemical processes involving ammonia, what you're eating is likely cancerous and again of such low quality you'd probably vomit if you saw how it was made before it got to the store.

Hebrew National Kosher hot dogs, for example, are exactly the same price as vegan hot dogs, in most places I've seen.

You might not feel guilt about eating animals, but you might want to be more concerned about how the animals raised for cheap meat are tortured, not just killed, contributing to air and water polliution, water and food waste, and are actually much more likely to give you food poisoning than any vegan product.

People who pay for quality meat and cheese aren't going to see a big difference in the prices. Vegan "products" also aren't meant to be eaten at every meal, or even every day. People on whole foods diets don't eat them at all, or make their own nut cheeses and seitan at home.

Food is also much more expensive in other countries than it is the US, and part of the reason for that are heinous short cuts taking in our meat industry, as well as continued legalization of ingredients which have been banned in other countries for health reasons.

Meat actually starts to rot quickly, so even some things you think are fresh in the super market have been chemically treated for appearance. Our chicken notoriously contains arsenic (not to mention the human rights/worker violations rampant in factory farming).

 

[Thalassa]

Also, while this is not directly correlated to the prices of vegan products, I've noticed an overarching theme in your posts that you seem to be suspicious of veganism, even though it's been around since the Second World War, is approved by the WHO, the American Dietetic Association, and is part of the UK National Health Service nutrition guidance. You seem to think it's some kind of "scam" to take people's money, when time and again veganism has been shown to be equal to or cheaper than the cost of a meat eaters diet. Even if you are homeless, being a lacto-ovo vegetarian is still more affordable than being a meat eater. And the meats you are arguing for, as I have previously mentioned, barely even qualify as meat and yes this matters in terms of nutritional content.

From a health perspective, vegetarians on average live longer, have less diet and lifestyle related illness, vegans in particular have lower cholesterol and lower body weight and less heart disease, as well as less risk of certain kinds of cancers. Any risks associated with veganism can easily be prevented with basic education - mostly about B12 and vegan sources of Omega 3s.

The most compelling reasons are first and foremost, environmental, and secondly from a human rights standpoint, political. The animal rights angle is merely an added bonus.

Cattle farming is just as damaging to the environment as fossil fuels, with hog farming coming in a close second.

I have posted this on the forum before, in its own thread, and I'll post it here again.

Exploring the biophysical option space for feeding the world without deforestation : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group

I also need to keep my commitment to expanding on environmental veganism in my personal blog.

In the meantime, if you haven't, watch Cowspiracy. It's a very interesting documentary about the environmental and human rights issues.

 

[kyuuei]

I honestly don't know what you mean. Vegan lunch "meats" are the same price, or cheaper, than processed meats.

I feel like I addressed this part. I'm not the only person who has noticed this. I mean, in this thread here:
But WHY is vegan specialty food so expensive? : vegan
The posters don't even try to argue with the fact that the cheap baseline for vegan food is still higher than the cheap baseline for meat eaters.
10 Things I Wish I Knew Before I Went Vegan "Being vegan doesn’t have to be more expensive, but it will be."
Is Vegan Food More Expensive? A Guide to Eating Vegan on a Budget | The Vegan WomanThe Vegan Woman "1. Mock meats and cheese are not a must" being the very first point on making veganism cheaper.
Why Is My Vegan Entree as Expensive as the Meat? | Serious Eats - An article I found this morning that helps cover the cost gaps between vegetarian entrees and meat eating ones in restaurants, though doesn't quite address the supermarket side of things I'm discussing here.
Vegan options are more expensive than their nonvegetarian counterparts. Can I afford to go vegan? | Frequently Asked Questions | About PETA | PETA "You’re right that vegan specialty foods, like prepared veggie burgers, etc., are sometimes more expensive than their nonvegan counterparts, but fortunately, they aren’t the only options."
https://thebillfold.com/the-cost-of-being-vegan-2ac12158d3d#.1j62sznue Basically, her monthly groceries increased around $100 going vegan while keeping convenience foods in her diet.

Between all of the vegetable waste in supermarkets in America, and the fact that farming is subsidized and you're not paying for the cost of any animal in production, I still don't see where it stands to serve that vegetarian meatless meats cost more than their meaty counterparts. When I am at home, making zucchini meatballs, it is because it only costs me $5 to make a gallon ziplock bag's worth of meatballs, which I just cannot match the price of on the meat side of things. Yet, if I were to go to a store and buy them, they'd cost just as much as meatballs, or more since I usually get less in a package.

Artisan vegan nut cheeses run around the same price as fancy pretentious dairy cheese, and you're going to pay about the same for Daiya, as you do for real cheddar, sliced. Again what you're going to find cheaper is of low quality, like kraft singles and knock offs.

This is what I'm seeing time and time again.. My mindset is this one as to why it costs so much: Vegans don't want to pay cheaper prices for fear of having a lower quality if they do. This is a pretty common fallacy with American grocery shoppers... There is a mentality across America that more expensive means better quality, which isn't necessarily true in and of itself.
http://www.thekitchn.com/frances-fa...-frozen-food-surprised-you-shouldnt-be-233463
When asked why this major French chain won't go to America anytime soon: "My sense is they’ve determined that people in the States are not willing to pay 30 to 40 percent more for high-quality frozen food." basically because we perceive frozen food as an inferior quality right away.. and that the only "high quality cheap food" is the ones we make ourselves.

While it is of meat-eater mentalities typically to say "Meh" to quality and grab whatever is cheap, Vegans tend to not have this same mentality as being cheap means grabbing an entirely different food item altogether.. Where meat eaters tend to say "Okay, cheap hot dogs this week because I'm on a budget." vegans will say, "I'm on a budget, so no hot dogs this week, I'll go with a bean stew."
And so, there's not really many vegans that are in the specialty food mentality to drive the market. I think this is further evidenced with stuff like you've been posting.. where again and again, the emphasis is on nutrition and quality and that's where you jump to immediately, instead of just trying to look at numbers.

You honestly probably don't know how nasty what you're eating is

Oh trust me, I've watched every video a vegetarian can possibly shove down my throat. I know how the industry is, my buddy used to work right on in it, and I've gotten a wide variety of butchery exposure in my day.. from how poorer countries prep, farm, and eat their meats, to the high quality meats that live a stone's throw away from me that costs a pretty penny. But, as I said in the OP...... I am not talking about nutrition here. Unless the mentality that veganism = health automatically and that's why it's expensive, I don't want to discuss nutrition here.

Hebrew National Kosher hot dogs, for example, are exactly the same price as vegan hot dogs, in most places I've seen.

Again, selling my personal theory to me.. The cheap baseline is the same as the gourmet/brand name prices on the meat side mostly due to perceiving a higher quality.

People who pay for quality meat and cheese aren't going to see a big difference in the prices.

But most of the time people don't. That's my whole point. Yeah, a chef that usually buys quality cuts is not going to see a difference in vegan prices. But the typical meat eating american (which is where vegetarian people complain about and try to convince otherwise) is not in that demographic. What I'm saying is.. It'd be pretty easy for me to make the switch if vegan steaks, vegan bacon, etc. etc. had a lower, non-organic price point.. but they don't because of the mentality of veganism itself.. and I'm saying that mentality that only the highest quality for your body will do is what is holding the industry of meatless meats back from reaching more people.

Also, while this is not directly correlated to the prices of vegan products, I've noticed an overarching theme in your posts that you seem to be suspicious of veganism.

I believe I made my over-arching theme very clear in another thread: That ultimately I don't gaf if people go vegan or vegetarian and good on them if that's what they do, but also don't pretend it is the only way to be healthy. I'm not 'suspicious' of anything. I'm not vegetarian or vegan, and I do have some internal resentment of the air of superiority vegans tend to throw around... but my favorite cooking show to watch on youtube is a fullyraw vegan girl. Despite my not agreeing with anything in her philosophies, I like her cooking show just fine. I think you mistake my personal viewpoints on the subject for what I throw out at others. I don't throw shade on vegetarians at all, and while I disagree with vegan approaches at times I still really don't give a single fuck if someone is vegan. Even though vegans give tons of fucks about me eating meat.

The data is there for both lifestyles. So, Im alright with both lifestyles. I dislike the mentality that veganism is naturally healthy, it takes effort to balance the nutrients and get the proper nutritional value from veganism, rawfoodSOS displays this in her writings pretty well, but I think with some research veganism can be perfectly okay.

Let me make this perfectly clear, in case my disclaimer did not. This is an attempted analysis on why vegan meats are more expensive based on the actual materials... And has nothing to do with my viewpoints on veganism and eating vegetarian in general. 75% of my diet is a vegetarian one, I'm clearly not against eating vegetables and frequently go without meat for a variety of reasons.. none of them happen to be a moral one though. I am not trying to throw shade on the concept of meatless meat, nor on people who don't eat meat. I am trying to understand if it is a MENTAL driving factor (which I suspect it is) on why vegan products are pricier, or if there are actual physical reasons why meatless meats cannot touch the cheap factor that meat products have.

I know there are a ton of shortcuts and such for why cheap meats exist. You complain cheap hot dogs are made of scraps. But at the end of the day, you could honestly make a decent meatless dish out of the scraps and odds and ends of vegetables as well, and no one does that I can tell. We're in a world where asparagus stems in water is being sold for $6 a bottle, and powdered vegetables in water and fruit juice are being sold for $3-4 a bottle.. and veganism would make a much larger impact if people had access to cheaper meatless options, which is something most vegetarians want to do--is make an impact.

I'll be the first to say if a vegan steak costed slightly less than a regular steak and is easier to cook, I'd probably buy it first. Most of my grocery bill is "how much does it cost" and "how easy is it to prep".

 

[Beargryllz]

You're supposed to farm your own food, not depend on some agricultural giant to produce it for you at the taxpayers' expense

Gardening is one of those very basic skills that no human should be grow up without learning.

Dirt, water, seeds, maybe some compost if you've got it handy. Now you can feed a family! Unfortunately, it's actually illegal to garden in some of the more oppressive cities, so try to avoid those areas or overthrow the lunatics that put these laws in place.

 

[Pionart]

Free market supply and demand, if people will pay it then that's what they'll charge blah blah all that stupid stuff...

 

[kyuuei]

Free market supply and demand, if people will pay it then that's what they'll charge blah blah all that stupid stuff...

This is my thought as well.. that the market is driven by vegan/vegetarian mentality.. there's all that 'free money' from non-meat-eating floating around, coupled with an idea that healthy food is important, and voila. A niche market is created with people more than willing to pay higher prices for cheaper ingredients.

It's just that this seems counter-intuitive to, particularly vegan, movement ideas of getting the world to go vegan.

 

[Pionart]

This is my thought as well.. that the market is driven by vegan/vegetarian mentality.. there's all that 'free money' from non-meat-eating floating around, coupled with an idea that healthy food is important, and voila. A niche market is created with people more than willing to pay higher prices for cheaper ingredients.

It's just that this seems counter-intuitive to, particularly vegan, movement ideas of getting the world to go vegan.

Well, if the world was vegan then the prices would fall. I don't think it's necessarily more expensive to produce, other than the lost revenue from catering to a smaller market. A lot of people who buy "health foods" are going to be what may be termed (ugh, sorry for the labels) things like hipsters, new agers, stuff like that... you know, people who are paying for the image as much as they are for the product.

In actuality, if the world were to stop, or drastically reduce meat consumption, then this would be much more environmentally viable - and, barring a technologicaly revolution where we all start eating mass produced, cheap artificial products, then a herbivorous revolution is no doubt in store.

 

[Pionart]

While I am here, I will make a brief mention on why I am NOT currently a vegetarian:

Although I really do care a lot about environmental sustainability and the welfare of animals, I do not feel that cutting out meat from my diet is really making a significant enough difference for me to stress too much about it.

In fact, to me, even if the animal was raised in poor conditions, I do not see the act of eating its flesh as an act of cruelty. This is hard for me to justify, but it is how I see things. I believe that if I do not intend harm through my action, then the action is not wrong, even it happens to form part of a chain which harm also falls.

I am still considering this issue, however.

 

[kyuuei]

Well, if the world was vegan then the prices would fall. I don't think it's necessarily more expensive to produce, other than the lost revenue from catering to a smaller market. A lot of people who buy "health foods" are going to be what may be termed (ugh, sorry for the labels) things like hipsters, new agers, stuff like that... you know, people who are paying for the image as much as they are for the product.

In actuality, if the world were to stop, or drastically reduce meat consumption, then this would be much more environmentally viable - and, barring a technologicaly revolution where we all start eating mass produced, cheap artificial products, then a herbivorous revolution is no doubt in store.

This is my thoughts entirely.. that the specialty foods mimicking meat are either seen as gourmet or seen as awful (depending on the vegan, some do not agree at all with fake meat stuff), instead of a viable way to ease meat eaters into more vegetarian options.

 

[gromit]

I'm almost 100% certain it's a profit thing. Also, anytime you make something "artisan" it's gonna cost at least 2x as much.

 

[prplchknz]

I'm almost 100% certain it's a profit thing. Also, anytime you make something "artisan" it's gonna cost at least 2x as much.

so if i decided to become a prostitute i could say i'm artisan and charge twice as much as the whore on the other corner?

I mean theoretically i'm not becoming a prostitute.

 

[Thalassa]

I feel like I addressed this part. I'm not the only person who has noticed this. I mean, in this thread here:
But WHY is vegan specialty food so expensive? : vegan
The posters don't even try to argue with the fact that the cheap baseline for vegan food is still higher than the cheap baseline for meat eaters.
10 Things I Wish I Knew Before I Went Vegan "Being vegan doesn’t have to be more expensive, but it will be."
Is Vegan Food More Expensive? A Guide to Eating Vegan on a Budget | The Vegan WomanThe Vegan Woman "1. Mock meats and cheese are not a must" being the very first point on making veganism cheaper.
Why Is My Vegan Entree as Expensive as the Meat? | Serious Eats - An article I found this morning that helps cover the cost gaps between vegetarian entrees and meat eating ones in restaurants, though doesn't quite address the supermarket side of things I'm discussing here.
Vegan options are more expensive than their nonvegetarian counterparts. Can I afford to go vegan? | Frequently Asked Questions | About PETA | PETA "You’re right that vegan specialty foods, like prepared veggie burgers, etc., are sometimes more expensive than their nonvegan counterparts, but fortunately, they aren’t the only options."
https://thebillfold.com/the-cost-of-being-vegan-2ac12158d3d#.1j62sznue Basically, her monthly groceries increased around $100 going vegan while keeping convenience foods in her diet.

Between all of the vegetable waste in supermarkets in America, and the fact that farming is subsidized and you're not paying for the cost of any animal in production, I still don't see where it stands to serve that vegetarian meatless meats cost more than their meaty counterparts. When I am at home, making zucchini meatballs, it is because it only costs me $5 to make a gallon ziplock bag's worth of meatballs, which I just cannot match the price of on the meat side of things. Yet, if I were to go to a store and buy them, they'd cost just as much as meatballs, or more since I usually get less in a package.



This is what I'm seeing time and time again.. My mindset is this one as to why it costs so much: Vegans don't want to pay cheaper prices for fear of having a lower quality if they do. This is a pretty common fallacy with American grocery shoppers... There is a mentality across America that more expensive means better quality, which isn't necessarily true in and of itself.
http://www.thekitchn.com/frances-fa...-frozen-food-surprised-you-shouldnt-be-233463
When asked why this major French chain won't go to America anytime soon: "My sense is they’ve determined that people in the States are not willing to pay 30 to 40 percent more for high-quality frozen food." basically because we perceive frozen food as an inferior quality right away.. and that the only "high quality cheap food" is the ones we make ourselves.

While it is of meat-eater mentalities typically to say "Meh" to quality and grab whatever is cheap, Vegans tend to not have this same mentality as being cheap means grabbing an entirely different food item altogether.. Where meat eaters tend to say "Okay, cheap hot dogs this week because I'm on a budget." vegans will say, "I'm on a budget, so no hot dogs this week, I'll go with a bean stew."
And so, there's not really many vegans that are in the specialty food mentality to drive the market. I think this is further evidenced with stuff like you've been posting.. where again and again, the emphasis is on nutrition and quality and that's where you jump to immediately, instead of just trying to look at numbers.



Oh trust me, I've watched every video a vegetarian can possibly shove down my throat. I know how the industry is, my buddy used to work right on in it, and I've gotten a wide variety of butchery exposure in my day.. from how poorer countries prep, farm, and eat their meats, to the high quality meats that live a stone's throw away from me that costs a pretty penny. But, as I said in the OP...... I am not talking about nutrition here. Unless the mentality that veganism = health automatically and that's why it's expensive, I don't want to discuss nutrition here.



Again, selling my personal theory to me.. The cheap baseline is the same as the gourmet/brand name prices on the meat side mostly due to perceiving a higher quality.



But most of the time people don't. That's my whole point. Yeah, a chef that usually buys quality cuts is not going to see a difference in vegan prices. But the typical meat eating american (which is where vegetarian people complain about and try to convince otherwise) is not in that demographic. What I'm saying is.. It'd be pretty easy for me to make the switch if vegan steaks, vegan bacon, etc. etc. had a lower, non-organic price point.. but they don't because of the mentality of veganism itself.. and I'm saying that mentality that only the highest quality for your body will do is what is holding the industry of meatless meats back from reaching more people.



I believe I made my over-arching theme very clear in another thread: That ultimately I don't gaf if people go vegan or vegetarian and good on them if that's what they do, but also don't pretend it is the only way to be healthy. I'm not 'suspicious' of anything. I'm not vegetarian or vegan, and I do have some internal resentment of the air of superiority vegans tend to throw around... but my favorite cooking show to watch on youtube is a fullyraw vegan girl. Despite my not agreeing with anything in her philosophies, I like her cooking show just fine. I think you mistake my personal viewpoints on the subject for what I throw out at others. I don't throw shade on vegetarians at all, and while I disagree with vegan approaches at times I still really don't give a single fuck if someone is vegan. Even though vegans give tons of fucks about me eating meat.

The data is there for both lifestyles. So, Im alright with both lifestyles. I dislike the mentality that veganism is naturally healthy, it takes effort to balance the nutrients and get the proper nutritional value from veganism, rawfoodSOS displays this in her writings pretty well, but I think with some research veganism can be perfectly okay.

Let me make this perfectly clear, in case my disclaimer did not. This is an attempted analysis on why vegan meats are more expensive based on the actual materials... And has nothing to do with my viewpoints on veganism and eating vegetarian in general. 75% of my diet is a vegetarian one, I'm clearly not against eating vegetables and frequently go without meat for a variety of reasons.. none of them happen to be a moral one though. I am not trying to throw shade on the concept of meatless meat, nor on people who don't eat meat. I am trying to understand if it is a MENTAL driving factor (which I suspect it is) on why vegan products are pricier, or if there are actual physical reasons why meatless meats cannot touch the cheap factor that meat products have.

I know there are a ton of shortcuts and such for why cheap meats exist. You complain cheap hot dogs are made of scraps. But at the end of the day, you could honestly make a decent meatless dish out of the scraps and odds and ends of vegetables as well, and no one does that I can tell. We're in a world where asparagus stems in water is being sold for $6 a bottle, and powdered vegetables in water and fruit juice are being sold for $3-4 a bottle.. and veganism would make a much larger impact if people had access to cheaper meatless options, which is something most vegetarians want to do--is make an impact.

I'll be the first to say if a vegan steak costed slightly less than a regular steak and is easier to cook, I'd probably buy it first. Most of my grocery bill is "how much does it cost" and "how easy is it to prep".

Ok. But you asked why you shouldn't just eat meat. I gave reasons from a nutritional standpoint, and from an environmental one, not just animal rights. People think by eating grass fed meat they're doing the earth a favor, but it's actually just more humane for the animals because grass fed requires unacceptable land use that could lead to more destruction of rain forests, as well as using land that could be used for any other thing.

If your only concern is cost, then you can eat beans and tofu and nutritional yeast instead of vegan replacements. If you say yes I can already do that and just eat less meat, the arguments again I'll give you are not related to price, but nutrition, environment and animal rights. One of the reasons kosher beef hot dogs are more expensive is not just perception - they really are of better quality, and kosher means the animals are treated more humanely. It's interesting to note in Israel, home of kosher, veganism is more widespread than any other country in the world, including wealthy US and vegetarian India.

I like to get faux meats on sale, and freeze some of them. I don't buy vegan cheese at all unless I'm making a special dish, or eating out (usually pizza but sometimes sandwiches).

Another factor is that big corporations can cut costs through cutting corners on how they treat employees or pay employees, by outsourcing labor, and sheer numbers. Vegans usually demand companies specializing in vegan products treat and pay employees well, don't outsource labor, and commit to other ethical concerns, like sustainability. Vegan companies also tend to be smaller and have less customers. I think Tofurky, Gardein, and Daiya are the biggest. This all factors into cost.

 

[Thalassa]

You're supposed to farm your own food, not depend on some agricultural giant to produce it for you at the taxpayers' expense

Gardening is one of those very basic skills that no human should be grow up without learning.

Dirt, water, seeds, maybe some compost if you've got it handy. Now you can feed a family! Unfortunately, it's actually illegal to garden in some of the more oppressive cities, so try to avoid those areas or overthrow the lunatics that put these laws in place.

I agree this is the ideal. My grandparents grew their own vegetables and grapes, we went berry picking, etc. My mom has a garden. If I get out of LA, I want to do more of my own gardening. Roof top gardening and farmers markets, luckily, are very popular here though. I try to buy some things local (my tofu is from California) and eat fruit from a neighbors tree.

If I were off grid, I might eat eggs from my own or a neighbor chicken. If I consumed dairy again, it would have to be from goats. I would never eat meat again, and really have no desire to be lacto-ovo, but it's a very realistic option for subsistence farmers to have chickens and goats, or have a neighbor who does.

I respect people more who hunt legally in season than people who eat factory farmed meat. I think invasive species are also a problem, one good example is wild boar, I'd rather someone eat that than a hamburger from the grocery store.

But everything can't be ideal. We can work to improve things, and vegan companies are a part of that.


Important Edit: a lot of libertarians don't seem to understand why we have hunting and fishing laws. It's not "oppressive"...Native American people lived on this land for thousands of years with bear and buffalo and wolves, managed to fish and hunt sustainably, and their diets weren't necessarily centered around meat, except in areas such as frigid Alaska. European people came here and drove animals to extinction or near extinction so fast it would give you whip lash. That's why the National Park Service was formed and why hunting/fishing laws exist, because something about the traditional European mindset is destructive to the earth. Not necessarily racially, but culturally. Europe saw huge losses of ancient forests, and their own wildlife centuries ago after the dawn of capitalism. For some reason, Eastern Europe isn't as bad about this culturally as Western Europe was, so again, it's definitely not racial but cultural. A lot of American people don't comprehend basic things about nature, the environment, or agriculture.

 

[Pionart]

Hey Thalassa,

Youre cool and all

But the only reason, the real reason why you are a Vegan

Is that you are not allowed to be a cannibal

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

so if i decided to become a prostitute i could say i'm artisan and charge twice as much as the whore on the other corner?

I mean theoretically i'm not becoming a prostitute.

Escort vs prostitute. Same thing different marketing. (Provided the escort does that sort of thing )

 

[prplchknz]

Escort vs prostitute. Same thing different marketing. (Provided the escort does that sort of thing )

ok so an artisan prostitute is really just an escort. so if i really want to make money i need to become an artisan escort.

 

[Thalassa]

Hey Thalassa,

Youre cool and all

But the only reason, the real reason why you are a Vegan

Is that you are not allowed to be a cannibal

No, actually you don't understand apparently. The environment is about continuing the human race, and ending factory farming is about workers rights as much as animal rights (and continuing the environment so the human race doesn't die).

Furthermore, all of this meat is primarily consumed by the world's wealthiest people who live in the first world. Indigineous peoples and the world's poorest are affected by the Western world's oblivious greed and gluttony.

It's not "humans" or even a race, it's about a culture that's acted like a disease on every continent of the earth now. The advent of these conditions in the East, and even in Eastern Europe, is fairly recent, mostly due to "Westernization" (and Putin being a psychopath).

The last primeval forest in Europe is in Eastern Europe.

Stuff of fairy tales: stepping into Europe's last old-growth forest

 

[Luke O]

To me, the price of anything is a judgement of the seller of how much an item costs, which for some is "the maximum that I can get away with".

With vegan speciality items, it's similar to organic, the customer is more knowledgeable, better educated and tends to be more affluent; the market isn't as competitive as the mainstream either. Here you can comfortably price higher and even further still if you can reassure your customer about the quality of your items.

 

[kyuuei]

I'm almost 100% certain it's a profit thing. Also, anytime you make something "artisan" it's gonna cost at least 2x as much.

Usually I really get this... but for all the protesting and flyer handing out and video showing I see vegans do when I'm at major events... No one has even posed the question, "Why don't we make a damn good meatless alternative affordable?" Which is why I'm asking.. I suspect it to be a mentality vs actuality, but maybe there are actual material costs and reasons why meatless meats cost more to produce than meat itself.

so if i decided to become a prostitute i could say i'm artisan and charge twice as much as the whore on the other corner?

I mean theoretically i'm not becoming a prostitute.

Theoretically.

Ok. But you asked why you shouldn't just eat meat.

... Right. From an financial perspective. Like I said, for meat eaters, nutrition tends to hold a little less value than I find among vegans... This is true for me as well. My food is not really centered on nutrition (though I do value it and take it into consideration) alone. I'm not alone in that, many meat eaters look at what is cheap, available, easy to prepare, and theeeen if it's healthy then great.

Here's what I'm saying. You have a product that can benefit a large population. But you only market it to a small population. And then you complain the larger population is not using your product to help the environment, or animals, or to destroy industries doing bad things to them, etc. But you aren't marketing it to the demographic. Meatless meats and never going to reach people who aren't already very into nutrition because the reality is the selling point isn't there.. and the selling point for many people is money.

If your only concern is cost, then you can eat beans and tofu and nutritional yeast instead of vegan replacements.

Another factor is that big corporations can cut costs through cutting corners on how they treat employees or pay employees, by outsourcing labor, and sheer numbers. Vegans usually demand companies specializing in vegan products treat and pay employees well, don't outsource labor, and commit to other ethical concerns, like sustainability. Vegan companies also tend to be smaller and have less customers. I think Tofurky, Gardein, and Daiya are the biggest. This all factors into cost.

Now here we're cooking with fire.. this is the sort of thing I'm here to discuss. Bad pun intended.
But do these factors justify spending $2-3 per patty on something that costs a fraction of a dollar to make in mass quantities alone? The reality is the materials to make the meats are not adding up in price, with the exception of some very particular ingredients.. but considering I get tofu from asian markets muuuuuch cheaper than other markets, I assume that most of the materials are massively raised in price levels. To compensate everyone involved properly and make things more sustainable.. however vague that term may be? Sure.. but 10x the cost of the materials expensive? Also, 10x is a number I threw out of my ass just now. I didn't do math on it yet.. but I'm pretty sure I make black bean burgers because they're significantly cheaper to produce than regular burgers, not marginally.