Is body shaming negatively impacting peoples' health

[Lark]

I dont think that bullying or cyber bullying is a good thing, which I thought this was a good example of, although I think health promotion is a good idea.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION] et al

Not to repeat myself or beat a dead horse, but you can acknowledge that the obesity epidemic is a health problem without calling it a fat person problem.

There are scientifically validated methods of encouraging people to exercise more and eat more nutritious food. Those methods do not involve shaming. Shaming has been proven to be counterproductive -- not just ineffective, but actively making the obesity epidemic worse.

This is an issue of practicality. Shaming doesn't work. So if you care about making sure that people eat healthy and exercise, then don't shame them.

 

[Lark]

[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION] et al

Not to repeat myself or beat a dead horse, but you can acknowledge that the obesity epidemic is a health problem without calling it a fat person problem.

There are scientifically validated methods of encouraging people to exercise more and eat more nutritious food. Those methods do not involve shaming. Shaming has been proven to be counterproductive -- not just ineffective, but actively making the obesity epidemic worse.

This is an issue of practicality. Shaming doesn't work. So if you care about making sure that people eat healthy and exercise, then don't shame them.

Yeah, I'd agree with that, its wrong but even if it werent its just not effective.

It actually puts people of taking exercise, whether its going to the gym, walking, running, dancing, because they're aware of their physical state and ashamed of it.

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, I'd agree with that, its wrong but even if it werent its just not effective.

It actually puts people of taking exercise, whether its going to the gym, walking, running, dancing, because they're aware of their physical state and ashamed of it.

Exactly! And it doesn't help that gym memberships are designed to keep people out: Episode 590: The Planet Money Workout : Planet Money : NPR

 

[Lark]

Exactly! And it doesn't help that gym memberships are designed to keep people out: Episode 590: The Planet Money Workout : Planet Money : NPR

Yeah, I've noticed that, I've thought about how most gyms are competing for a core of people who're highly fit and high performing with that physique to begin with, all the advertising and marketing is like that, when I think of the gym that I started, during the induction the guy set the machines all to a level which was actually too high for me and I wasnt sure how to reset them and the one free session I had with a fitness trainer they actually pushed me way beyond my limits, now part of this is to do with my own unwillingness to quit and I know that, but I definitely thought it was all going to put someone who had no commitment anyway off.

Though I've noticed the same in a lot of fitness publishing and writing too, though I dont think any of it at all is deliberate, I've seen maybe one or two memes which came out of the crossfit circles which actually featured people who were struggling and obese but they were trying, hard, and the meme actually challenged people by saying are you about to laugh at this person because they are trying and you might not be.

All of which reminds me of the physical education classes at school, from the changing facilities, the showers (which at my school were like fucking prisons), to the choice of games, unimaginative and unattractive (people took more exercise during the lunch break) or down right torture (I remember a fixation with forward or backward rolls (which I couldnt execute) or dodge ball. When I think of the waste of time and the consequences. If that time had been afforded with dedicated cardio equipment every morning or evening or there was a gym and free time within the time table I'd have left school fit for life.

Besides the shaming you get messages about fitness being something people do in their spare time or if they are already fit.

 

[Thalassa]

[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION] et al

Not to repeat myself or beat a dead horse, but you can acknowledge that the obesity epidemic is a health problem without calling it a fat person problem.

There are scientifically validated methods of encouraging people to exercise more and eat more nutritious food. Those methods do not involve shaming. Shaming has been proven to be counterproductive -- not just ineffective, but actively making the obesity epidemic worse.

This is an issue of practicality. Shaming doesn't work. So if you care about making sure that people eat healthy and exercise, then don't shame them.

I think what Dani Mathers did was horrible - but again I'm pretty sure she's not a well adjusted individual, I think there is something wrong there besides "oh she's a bad person" because I worked in the adult industry, and I can tell you that Playboy is the print equivalent of the sort of strip clubs where dancers are weighed weekly...and guess what? It obviously works on some people, but I'm not claiming it's healthy that it does. Millions of Western women grow up shamed into thinness, and yeah I think some of the most emotionally fucked up feel like it's their job to shame other women into obedience. I always refused to work in the clubs that had scales, even when I was 18-19, but throughout the adult industry there is the prevalence of body shaming combined with sexual freedom, which can confuse people. I'm free to be naked, or topless, and perform..but I have to maintain a certain image to do so. I honestly only thought it was bad when taken to an extreme ...obesity isn't attractive, force feeding/feeder porn is no healthier than the adolescent starvation end, and getting away from the adult industry. ..I mean honestly is it better to make your child obese instead of starving them? Why isn't childhood obesity past a reasonable point punishable by law like starving your children is?

I just have a much more complex view of the entire subject, but no, I never shamed the friend I mentioned in my post...in fact when she lived with me she lost weight and was in better shape than she was prior, or now. It definitely was never because I bullied or shamed her. Believe me when I say I've been shamed many times over my body - including by one of my boyfriends - and I found it pretty appalling that one person on here trolled me by implying LDR was now "fat" just because she's a normal weight and has a grown woman's hips rather than being as thin as she was when Born to Die was released, or saying "eeeewww" because Taylor Swift is clearly underweight.

However, I do think there is some personal responsibility involved with obesity. Not "fat" which is a subjective term in beauty/fashion/film/music/porn...but obesity. There is some personal responsibility, yes. It depends. I get tired of some people's excuses, especially since being significantly overweight historically was a symbol of greed, and the US does over-load the rest of the world with their food demands, especially for meat.

 

[kyuuei]

Yup, I'd totally rebel and bring it to the next level, because I would not want someone to get away with that shit.

Also it always makes me laugh that people are self conscious at the gym in the first place. It's where you go to get in shape.... I mean it's the fundamental reason you're there.

Yeah, that's my mentality of it. You don't go to school because you're already a genius expert in a field. You go to learn. Someone calling your questions dumb can go shove off.

An apology is automatically disingenuous. She's sorry she got in trouble. The most anyone can hope is this makes her take a look at her POV and re-think it.

It's hard to apologize for disgust in another human being because of their physical appearance when you had to go through so many steps to make it known. It wasn't just a passing thought. It was deliberate to put it out into the world.

But [MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION] has a point. This woman, by the nature of her profession, probably places all her worth in her appearance. It's like my lesbian friend who told me all the people in high school who were so hateful toward her, ended up coming out themselves.

This woman is probably so insecure about her appearance herself. Seeing someone who isn't as ashamed probably angers someone like that.

She should at least recognize that while she opted for the easy way out of insecurity (through plastic surgery to fit a Barbie ideal) this other woman was doing it through hard work.

Yet again, how do you judge someone? You don't know if they just had a child, an eating disorder, a health issue...

Yeah. Obesity is a problem but people like this are the flip side of that. They have unhealthy views of physical appearance just as someone has an unhealthy relationship with food.

Omg I wanted to claw my eyes out when I saw that video. Seriously, it was the biggest crock of fluffy bullshit while not actually saying anything even remotely genuinely apologetic. Sorry is pretty empty when the context behind it is "sorry you guys didn't think it was funny." I'm glad her social network crumpled in, and I hope she does at least get taken to court even if nothing happens from it... because the world needs to see that shit is illegal even if you're pretty.

 

[soremfinger]

She could have made that woman Mathers' life a nightmare by suing her. First of all she can't just take a picture of somebody without their permission and then go on to defame her. I don't know if she pressed charges but karma acted out - she was banned from her gym.

But does body shaming negatively impact people's health? It depends. If the nightmarish anorexia is the "beauty standard" then certainly. Same goes for obesity. But would a doctor's advise be considered "body shaming"? I think not. If my doctor advises me to lose or gain some weight to better myself then it's said on good faith. It's advisable that we walk the line. Balance is everything.

In so far as I am concern, I was lucky enough to work out on a gym where the body builders were very helpful. Also, I'm quite discipline and focus when it comes to physicality so I have a good time at the gym. But I'm not gonna lie. People do judge. It's in our nature. The question is no longer about being judged or not but whether if judgment is well-intentioned or not. That Mathers' lady, however, shows symptom of acute inferiority complex. What she did is a step too far and for no good reason. It was ill-intentioned. I particularly judge (in my mind) when somebody tries to show off like trying to lift weights that he can't possibly lift. In my gym this is a good reason for judgment for everybody because there were instances where show off douches dislocated their rotator cuffs trying to benchpress on a dumbbell weighing 70kg each. So the trainer would advise them to either lift lower set of weights or if they are adamant would bite them with sarcasm to discourage them. He do it in good faith.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

She could have made that woman Mathers' life a nightmare by suing her. First of all she can't just take a picture of somebody without their permission and then go on to defame her. I don't know if she pressed charges but karma acted out - she was banned from her gym.

But does body shaming negatively impact people's health? It depends. If the nightmarish anorexia is the "beauty standard" then certainly. Same goes for obesity. But would a doctor's advise be considered "body shaming"? I think not. If my doctor advises me to lose or gain some weight to better myself then it's said on good faith. It's advisable that we walk the line. Balance is everything.

In so far as I am concern, I was lucky enough to work out on a gym where the body builders were very helpful. Also, I'm quite discipline and focus when it comes to physicality so I have a good time at the gym. But I'm not gonna lie. People do judge. It's in our nature. The question is no longer about being judged or not but whether if judgment is well-intentioned or not. That Mathers' lady, however, shows symptom of acute inferiority complex. What she did is a step too far and for no good reason. It was ill-intentioned. I particularly judge (in my mind) when somebody tries to show off like trying to lift weights that he can't possibly lift. In my gym this is a good reason for judgment for everybody because there were instances where show off douches dislocated their rotator cuffs trying to benchpress on a dumbbell weighing 70kg each. So the trainer would advise them to either lift lower set of weights or if they are adamant would bite them with sarcasm to discourage them. He do it in good faith.

Yup. I think shaming works but works terribly. As we can see with eating disorders, etc.

Shaming doesn't educate and that is a big problem.

The fat acceptance movement doesn't educate and that is a big problem.

A person's weight shouldn't define their self-esteem, ideally. But it shouldn't define their level of health either.

To say one can be fat and healthy is not accurate. Underweight individuals have to look out for osteoporosis and the like. Just different than heart disease/diabetes but they aren't necessarily healthy either.

You can feel good in your skin and still medically need to work on things.

I was about 20 lbs overweight, two years ago. I worked out 3-4 times a week. Had a resting heart rate of 53bpm. I was 'in shape'. I felt good about my body.

I got a physical (thinking I would ace that thing!) and learned I was pre-diabetic and cholesterol was high. I was bummed. I had to change my eating habits otherwise go on statins. I did. In doing so, I lost that weight. I am not longer pre-diabetic.

I have to keep that up. I'm not doing that because I needed to be a size whatever. I did it to be fully healthy.

So I'm glad to see a push towards health as an ideal rather than an body type "ideal" because it will naturally educate people and hopefully stop a "one size fits all" ideal of beauty.

Instead of bragging about fitting into that size 2, I'd like to hear bragging about passing ones yearly physical. That would be a welcome change

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION] et al

Not to repeat myself or beat a dead horse, but you can acknowledge that the obesity epidemic is a health problem without calling it a fat person problem.

There are scientifically validated methods of encouraging people to exercise more and eat more nutritious food. Those methods do not involve shaming. Shaming has been proven to be counterproductive -- not just ineffective, but actively making the obesity epidemic worse.

This is an issue of practicality. Shaming doesn't work. So if you care about making sure that people eat healthy and exercise, then don't shame them.

I agree with not shaming individuals. I do think that questioning the body positive movement is interesting, but maybe this is a different thread.
Plus-Size Models in Advertising May Make Women Even More Self-Conscious : People.com

 

[Cloudpatrol]

This thread was a great read!

1) A person in a changing room has a 'reasonable expectation of privacy' and regardless of Mather's motivations: violating that should make her legally culpable. Her being deficient in 'common decency' is another facet.

2) Love seeing all the emphasis on being health and exercise. Agree that it will be cause to celebrate when these are the primary societal motivations for both men and women, over perceptions of ideals.

3) Nice to hear the practical ways people like [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION] are using, to encourage other's to engage in fitness.

4) I understand what [MENTION=21203]Grand Admiral Crunch[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6724]DiscoBiscuit[/MENTION] are saying re: apathy towards being unhealthy. It always amazes me when people have pinterest boards dedicated to fitness and weight-loss/alongside boards filled with calorie-laden foods. It's true that obesity related health issues affect more than just the individual.

That being said, I also agree with [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] and [MENTION=2]Ivy[/MENTION] (and the research they supplied) that positive encouragement will always be more effective than trying to goad people to change.

I see this in classroom settings as well. As a teacher, I accomplish much more by highlighting strengths and giving positive re-inforcement. While still offering realistic goals and feedback. Teacher's who criticize or insult, produce frustrated student's and often the negative input becomes a 'self-fulfilling prophecy'.

 

[Ivy]

Let me tell you a secret- you can lose weight and maintain health and still eat "calorie-laden foods." Moderation is a thing.

 

[EJCC]

4) I understand what [MENTION=21203]Grand Admiral Crunch[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6724]DiscoBiscuit[/MENTION] are saying re: apathy towards being unhealthy. It always amazes me when people have pinterest boards dedicated to fitness and weight-loss/alongside boards filled with calorie-laden foods. It's true that obesity related health issues affect more than just the individual.

IME if folks have exercise tips and caloric recipes on their Pinterest, then it's not about apathy -- it's about one of many other options, including but not limited to

- They actually DO exercise a lot, and also eat a balanced diet (per [MENTION=2]Ivy[/MENTION]), but only ever use Pinterest for caloric recipes (some of my marathon-runner friends only use Pinterest food boards for cheat-day recipes)
- They exercise but don't realize that 75% of weight loss comes from diet, not exercise -- or they don't care, or they aren't overweight and/or aren't unhealthy so it's actually fine
- W/r to diet and/or exercise, they don't actually have enough background knowledge, or community support, to know where and how to begin

In my case -- which, I should clarify, was not about weight loss, but about actually exercising and eating well -- I began with very little physical strength and very little nutritional knowledge. Not to mention, no system to help me learn any of it. Making friends who were physically active, and doing a lot of research on my own, helped with that. But it took a lot of work. If there was ever apathy, it stemmed from confusion and/or hopelessness.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Let me tell you a secret- you can lose weight and maintain health and still eat "calorie-laden foods." Moderation is a thing.

Agreed but I see this being very tricky for a health layperson to understand.

Moderation is subjective and prone to abuse.

What is moderation? It will vary.

Someone who says they eat pasta once a week but yet they don't realize that everything else they eat is carb heavy. Crackers, pretzels, bread, potatoes...that is all carbs.

So, this is why people who are uneducated feel deprived. Because they deprive themselves of a "bad food" while indulging in other types that are essentially the same thing. Thus, they don't see results.

Mainly due to what [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] was explaining about those who are training extensively vs those who are working out once a week and who lack a sold fundamental knowledge base of nutrition and how it relates to activity levels. Again, education is key.

My moderation of a food is going to vary greatly depending upon my goals. That gets lost in focus a lot.

 

[Thalassa]

Agreed but I see this being very tricky for a health layperson to understand.

Moderation is subjective and prone to abuse.

What is moderation? It will vary.

Someone who says they eat pasta once a week but yet they don't realize that everything else they eat is carb heavy. Crackers, pretzels, bread, potatoes...that is all carbs.

So, this is why people who are uneducated feel deprived. Because they deprive themselves of a "bad food" while indulging in other types that are essentially the same thing. Thus, they don't see results.

Mainly due to what [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] was explaining about those who are training extensively vs those who are working out once a week and who lack a sold fundamental knowledge base of nutrition and how it relates to activity levels. Again, education is key.

My moderation of a food is going to vary greatly depending upon my goals. That gets lost in focus a lot.

It depends on what is meant by "bad food" anyway. I agree with [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] about it sometimes being ignorance or lack of knowledge, but I had a neighbor whom I found very frustrating, because she was diabetic and infertile at 23-24 and didn't really want to change her eating habits. She whined when she was sore after she exercised, and I remember taking her to a place in the mall where she could have gotten vegan food like I did, or at least an organic salad, and she wanted greasy fast food. I also remember her crying saying she wanted to eat like "normal" people. ..and her definition of normal was apparently McDonald's. She also didn't realize drinking a "fruit drink" with HFCS was terrible for her diabetes. It was a trainwreck, and I didn't know how to deal with it...because it was part ignorance and honestly partly her not wanting to put any effort in, is what it seemed like to me. So I tried to educate her compassionately and didn't ask her to do anything different than me, but I found her attitude extremely frustrating.

It's the same way with vegans though. I think the guaranteed way to be a "fat vegan" is to eat sugar constantly. You don't have to eat nothing but beans and kale, you can eat veggie burgers and vegan pizza, and to me that is what I consider moderation...it's not moderate to eat vegan cakes and cookies once per day. But it's also not necessary to go on banana/juice fasts, or cut all fat from your diet. Vegans who eat no fats get clicky bones, dry skin and hair, and are eventually underweight...in an extreme long term scenario it could actually interfere with nervous system needs for APA/DHA. Yet I like to emphasize everything vegan isn't necessarily healthy. Pepsi and potato chips are "accidentally vegan."

I keep a massive vegan dessert board on my Pinterist, separate from my "normal" vegan things...I've eaten maybe a few of those things over months, and have yet to make anything resembling a fancy vegan cake, of which I have certainly pinned about 40 because they look pretty, and sound good for "someday."

You can't outrun a terrible diet, but yeah people who train have much higher caloric needs.

 

[Thalassa]

Yup. I think shaming works but works terribly. As we can see with eating disorders, etc.

Shaming doesn't educate and that is a big problem.

The fat acceptance movement doesn't educate and that is a big problem.

A person's weight shouldn't define their self-esteem, ideally. But it shouldn't define their level of health either.

To say one can be fat and healthy is not accurate. Underweight individuals have to look out for osteoporosis and the like. Just different than heart disease/diabetes but they aren't necessarily healthy either.

You can feel good in your skin and still medically need to work on things.

I was about 20 lbs overweight, two years ago. I worked out 3-4 times a week. Had a resting heart rate of 53bpm. I was 'in shape'. I felt good about my body.

I got a physical (thinking I would ace that thing!) and learned I was pre-diabetic and cholesterol was high. I was bummed. I had to change my eating habits otherwise go on statins. I did. In doing so, I lost that weight. I am not longer pre-diabetic.

I have to keep that up. I'm not doing that because I needed to be a size whatever. I did it to be fully healthy.

So I'm glad to see a push towards health as an ideal rather than an body type "ideal" because it will naturally educate people and hopefully stop a "one size fits all" ideal of beauty.

Instead of bragging about fitting into that size 2, I'd like to hear bragging about passing ones yearly physical. That would be a welcome change

Yeah I agree with most of what you are saying. ..and part of my perspective comes from gaining and losing emotional weight gain from being in an abusive relationship. I was also on a medication for depression that, as soon as it was gone, the weight came off too...so I'm not speaking from a place of "thin privilege." I still don't think fat acceptance is good. Also, people can be obese for different reasons, and some people really are lazy, dependent or entitled...I kind of get sick of the implications that someone who is obese is some how always compensating for it by having a great personality or being "fat and jolly." No, some people with weight problems actually do have character flaws. It reminds me of other simplistic dichotomies like "white oppressor, black victim."

In fact to put this in perspective, even when people were not well fed in the early 20th century, they were still overall expected to live longer and do better than their parents. Because of childhood obesity, and children and teens, no longer just young adults, having lifestyle related diseases like type 2 diabetes, heart disease etc that were once relegated to the land of people over 40...this generation of children are actually predicted to live shorter lives than their parents. It's appalling, and I cannot find justification for siding with fat positive or fat acceptance just because it makes some people feel comforted, or even like rebels against fashion standards.

 

[iwakar]

This Model Body-Shaming Someone At The Gym Was My Worst Fear When I Started My Weight-Loss Journey - SELF

Dani Mathers engaged in cruel, stupid, and criminal behavior. The dissent in this thread discussion seems to have virtually nothing to do with this event.

 

[Thalassa]

I agree with not shaming individuals. I do think that questioning the body positive movement is interesting, but maybe this is a different thread.
Plus-Size Models in Advertising May Make Women Even More Self-Conscious : People.com

Yep, I agree with this. Normalizing something makes it more prevalent or acceptable, people then see themselves as victims of cruel fat shamers, instead of people who are adults who are morally culpable for greed, gluttony, rising health care costs, sick children, and one of the most obscure consequences. ..how overfeeding some people is leading to the starvation of others, especially in developing countries or tribal cultures, because for one thing it requires so much fresh water to raise cattle and pigs.

Am I saying that thin people don't do this too? Nope. The difference is that when people take on obesity from a position of victimhood, or even of it being the norm, they no longer have to reflect on what might not be OK about that.

But for the record, I think it depends on the size of the model. I've seen so called plus sized models who are actually proportionate, with hour glass figures, or just wide hips, or large breasts...then I've seen others who are actually obviously obese, even morbidly obese.

I pretty much agree with anyone who said we need to emphasize health, and acceptance of average healthy weights for various body types versus the fat-thin war. ..which, might dismay some people who hate Marx...but it all comes down to class. At various points in time either thinness or obesity have been associated with wealth, for whatever reason.

 

[Thalassa]

Dani Mathers engaged in cruel, stupid, and criminal behavior. The dissent in this thread discussion seems to have virtually nothing to do with this event.

It's all connected. Dani Mathers has likely been shamed her whole life, likely has a personality disorder as well as an eating disorder, is used to constantly having her own nude photographs evaluated and critiqued, and is likely the emotional equivalent of an abused five year old.

That never would justify her awful behavior. ..yet all this stuff is connected.

 

[iwakar]

It's all connected. Dani Mathers has likely been shamed her whole life, likely has a personality disorder as well as an eating disorder, is used to constantly having her own nude photographs evaluated and critiqued, and is likely the emotional equivalent of an abused five year old.

That never would justify her awful behavior. ..yet all this stuff is connected.

I see people building straw men and tearing them down in order to have precisely the argument they felt like having before they elaborately massaged this thread and face-painted their fellow members in order to have it.

I get it. It's what happens here and in online forums everywhere. It's as old as humanity. I'm just super bored af with it today.

Carry on.