Why is obesity tolerated?

[Evo]

I don't agree with the premise. I think obesity is one of the last acceptable prejudices.

ditto

 

[Hate]

It shouldn’t be tolerated, fatties should be eliminated.

Why? Because this is Sparta!

*pushes [MENTION=325]EffEmDoubleyou[/MENTION] off the cliff*

 

[cafe]

The US subsidizes corn like it's running a feed lot, which doesn't help, IMO.

 

[kyuuei]

To be fair that would only be true in a state without debt, where they weren’t borrowing money for their residents. Last time I checked there were only a handful of countries who could claim that

I'm in Texas. We're bred big from the get-go

Secondly I think we had a misunderstanding I said “if the state has to pay.” I was referring to universal healthcare, because obesity is a global problem, something I can attest to being from a country that has on occasion claimed the top rank on the obesity chart.

Another reason I don't support universal health care. There are lots of ways to find middle ground between everything and nothing. We're just too caught up in red tape to make simple and concise decisions.

I’m sorry that your mother has to put up with that. I’m sorry I have absolutely no idea how I’m supposed to respond to this.

The point of it isn't for sympathy--my mom is healthy and fine--it is to paint a complex picture using only one color. If people had to pay more for 'being obese' or something like that, the state would start to violate all sorts of privacy rights as far as WHY people are obese. My impression originally from your post was that you were thinking the state has to get involved somewhere--I think it's fine where it's at as far as personal management of any sort. I think now that we were on the same page.

The bolded was what I was talking about when I said the state should take some responsibility. along with reviewing the regulation around the food industry, and putting in incentives for food companies to produce healthier products.

I absolutely do agree with you. The focus should be on directives that actually are simple and viable answers to food. They're possible. There are schools with real meals cooked daily for no more cost than the processed BS I had to eat. There should always be a step towards the health of citizens--as that is where the state should be concerned. The overall well being of its citizens-- but this is not to be confused as not tolerating obesity.

I think I should explain what I mean by grey area. I mean that there are no black and white answers, as in if we do this and that bam we’ve solved the problem. That it would take the individual and the state, and the food industry to reduce the number of obese people.

It was me to misunderstand you then. We were tracking after all.

 

[zago]

What you don't see is the underlying issues. Most 20 year old females don't desire to be overweight willingly. I mean, what you're saying is essentially the same argument you'd give to homeless people. "Why don't they just get a job? I mean that fixes everything." Until you see the figures of the sheer mass of homeless people with jobs. Then suddenly that isn't so viable.

Walking up stairs doesn't fix an unhealthy childhood, a lack of emphasis growing up on nutrition, social and peer pressure, and unconscious habit. Even healthy people tend to under estimate the calories they take in. Most people are not well educated in nutrition, and many girls are not encouraged to do things like work out at the gym--and it can seem really daunting to practically starve yourself on salads all the time while others your age with luckier genes are grubbin' like they're getting the needle the next day.

Barring emotional issues and medical issues, the people you socialize with a lot have a huge influence on your diet and lifestyle. She's young. Young people aren't really known for caring about their diet and nutritional health long term.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111119134520AARVEZk

I basically agree with you, but I believe that a person and people in general must act as if they have free will even if they don't. In other words, if I go around with the philosophy "I/they couldn't help it" then I think I will have a more negative effect on them. I would like to spread memes/beliefs that are encouraging.

Then again, I know people have limits, and I have had to grapple with my own recently. It seems to me like a lose-lose situation. If you tell people they have free will and are responsible for what almost amounts to bad luck, it will give them inferiority complexes, or tell people nothing is their fault ever and have them become lazy and entitled. Maybe I'm at fault for believing that, though, hell.

All I'm saying is, I want to spread the belief that walking up staircases is an easy thing I think more people should do. I see people at the mall for instance, almost all of them using the escalator when there is a perfectly good staircase right there next to it. Is it my business what these people want to do? Yes, it is. I have to look at them every day, and it depresses me to see such apathy. I don't mind being the guy who has to wake people up. We need to look our best and be healthy. We need to stay fit. It's the right way to live. I think that's pretty much absolute, as in, if you don't think it, you're wrong no matter what you believe about your position.

Again, however, I believe in a soft approach to this. I don't think it is effective to be mean about it or intimidate people into getting into shape or whatever. They have to believe in it, and I do think it is something to believe in, so I'll say as much. Bottom line, nobody is perfect (so I don't judge), whether it is our weight or whatever else, but that doesn't mean we should excuse everything.

The x-factor in all of this, though, is the body language of taking an escalator vs. walking up stairs. Walking up stairs is almost undignified in our society, especially if you do it the efficient way. People don't want to look like they're in a hurry or are too obsessed with the nuts and bolts of physicality and efficiency when in public. I don't really understand that at all, so I take the stairs, and I skip them, because why would I take the staircase if I didn't want to look like I was exerting myself. I am not a patient person in these sorts of situations. Same in traffic.

 

[Showbread]

I came across this article while doing research for something else the other day: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/07/25/2357901/fat-shaming-overweight-people-actually-makes-them-gain-more-weight/. It talks about how "fat shaming" can actually cause people to overeat even more.

It's such a complicated issue on a lot of levels. Food addiction is a very real thing. Certain foods cause neurotransmitters in the brain to be released just like sex or drugs. For someone who has been obese for a long time, losing weight is harder than just cutting out McDonalds. That said, we desperately need to be teaching kids more about healthy eating and making better choices.

 

[skylights]

I'm heartened by a lot of the responses in this thread. I think weight is one of the last areas where people are very bigoted and completely, truly believe they are being totally rational in their bigotry.

If you ACTUALLY want to help, and not just sit in front of your computer bitching about how you don't like looking at obese people, volunteer with adult outreach programs at the YMCA or other health and wellness outreach programs. Being fat is hard enough as it is; I've been there. The last thing that's going to help someone get to a healthier weight is a stranger who has no idea what it's like to struggle with weight harping on obesity from afar.

 

[cafe]

I generally don't mind taking stairs, but a lot of them are pretty isolated, making them scary for women who have been conditioned to think like prey (as I have). I don't mind doing two or three stories if they are open, get a fair amount of traffic, and seem safe. More than that, probably not.

 

[Dr Mobius]

I'm in Texas. We're bred big from the get-go

The point of it isn't for sympathy--my mom is healthy and fine--it is to paint a complex picture using only one color. If people had to pay more for 'being obese' or something like that, the state would start to violate all sorts of privacy rights as far as WHY people are obese. My impression originally from your post was that you were thinking the state has to get involved somewhere--I think it's fine where it's at as far as personal management of any sort. I think now that we were on the same page.

Ah I thought there was an analogy I wasn’t getting. I completely agree isolating a portion of a population is always a horrible idea, and a state that intrusive is a horrifying prospect.

I absolutely do agree with you. The focus should be on directives that actually are simple and viable answers to food. They're possible. There are schools with real meals cooked daily for no more cost than the processed BS I had to eat. There should always be a step towards the health of citizens--as that is where the state should be concerned.

I know they did something similar in New Zealand schools; requiring that the food met certain nutritional criteria; things like soft drinks got the boot replaced with juices and bottled water. Which when I think about it, wouldn’t have made a difference to Coke Cola as they own all the juice and bottled water companies in NZ.

The overall well being of its citizens-- but this is not to be confused as not tolerating obesity.

Agreed it’s not a great distance between stigmatised, to scapegoat, to monster.

It was me to misunderstand you then. We were tracking after all.

I think in text communication it is inevitable; but if it leads to interesting conversation, and a new perspective then it’s not such a bad thing.

 

[Blackmail!]

and it can seem really daunting to practically starve yourself on salads all the time while others your age with luckier genes are grubbin' like they're getting the needle the next day.

(...)

But I am not for rewarding people born with better genes than others.

Having "good" or "bad" genes is, in the case of obesity, most of the time a legend, unless you're a Pacific Islander or very unlucky.
It's a legend purposefully designed to make obese people feel better, but it's a legend nonetheless. Some scientists deperately try to find evidences supporting this legend (because it's true some cases of diabete have, indeed, a genetic cause), but for the vast majority of obese people (between 80 to 90%), the most obvious reason why they're obese is bad nutritional habits and a very sedentary lifestyle.

 

[Blackmail!]

I basically agree with you, but I believe that a person and people in general must act as if they have free will even if they don't. In other words, if I go around with the philosophy "I/they couldn't help it" then I think I will have a more negative effect on them. I would like to spread memes/beliefs that are encouraging.

Then again, I know people have limits, and I have had to grapple with my own recently. It seems to me like a lose-lose situation. If you tell people they have free will and are responsible for what almost amounts to bad luck, it will give them inferiority complexes, or tell people nothing is their fault ever and have them become lazy and entitled. Maybe I'm at fault for believing that, though, hell.

All I'm saying is, I want to spread the belief that walking up staircases is an easy thing I think more people should do. I see people at the mall for instance, almost all of them using the escalator when there is a perfectly good staircase right there next to it. Is it my business what these people want to do? Yes, it is. I have to look at them every day, and it depresses me to see such apathy. I don't mind being the guy who has to wake people up. We need to look our best and be healthy. We need to stay fit. It's the right way to live. I think that's pretty much absolute, as in, if you don't think it, you're wrong no matter what you believe about your position.

Again, however, I believe in a soft approach to this. I don't think it is effective to be mean about it or intimidate people into getting into shape or whatever. They have to believe in it, and I do think it is something to believe in, so I'll say as much. Bottom line, nobody is perfect (so I don't judge), whether it is our weight or whatever else, but that doesn't mean we should excuse everything.

The x-factor in all of this, though, is the body language of taking an escalator vs. walking up stairs. Walking up stairs is almost undignified in our society, especially if you do it the efficient way. People don't want to look like they're in a hurry or are too obsessed with the nuts and bolts of physicality and efficiency when in public. I don't really understand that at all, so I take the stairs, and I skip them, because why would I take the staircase if I didn't want to look like I was exerting myself. I am not a patient person in these sorts of situations. Same in traffic.

What you wrote about the stairs is absolutely true.

During decades, people were encouraged, unfortunately to take the elevator instead of the stairs.

But medical studies have shown that people who take the stairs, or who walk even only a mile a day (on a regular basis) are at a far lesser risk of becoming obese. Thus, in architecture, we have now what we call "active design": buildings that are purposefully designed to make people prefer to take the stairs rather than the elevator.

For instance:

Here is a recent project, the Cooper Union building, in New York (arch: Morphosis), and you can see how the architects have designed their stairs to attract people.

---

And in urbanism it's the same: to fight obesity pandemics, our master plans now focus on how to make cities "walkable", how to encourage people to walk or take public transports rather their own private car.

 

[Blackmail!]

The US subsidizes corn like it's running a feed lot, which doesn't help, IMO.

Absolutely. Corn syrup (glucose syrup) is one of the main culprit behind the current obesity epidemics. And you can find corn syrup in almost every junk food processed within the United States.

So one of the biggest issue is also political, because you can say that somehow, your government is subsidizing obesity because of its powerful food industry lobby.
We have similar issues here with the European commission subsidizing many powerful agro-food companies, even when they endanger the health of their clients. The greed of these companies is almost limitless, unfortunately.

Bless be Monsanto and Nestlé!

 

[rav3n]

(...)



Having "good" or "bad" genes is, in the case of obesity, most of the time a legend, unless you're a Pacific Islander or very unlucky.
It's a legend purposefully designed to make obese people feel better, but it's a legend nonetheless. Some scientists deperately try to find evidences supporting this legend (because it's true some cases of diabete have, indeed, a genetic cause), but for the vast majority of obese people (between 80 to 90%), the most obvious reason why they're obese is bad nutritional habits and a very sedentary lifestyle.

This is too simplistic a view.

The number of fat cells are created during childhood for both subcutaneous and visceral fat. This number remains constant during adulthood. When people lose weight, their fat cells deflate but remain constant in number.

What researchers have found is that 75% of obese children grow up to be obese adults where only 10% of healthy weight children mature into obese adults. Refer to previous paragraph for part of the explanation, as well as poor eating styles. This disregards other health considerations that impact on obesity, including mental health issues that require medication which might also impact on weight gain.

Also, not every person has identical genetics when it comes to production of testosterone and T3/T4 levels. These hormone levels impact on caloric metabolic burn rates.

Anyways, just a few considerations that should have impact on your perspective.

 

[Blackmail!]

This is too simplistic a view.

The number of fat cells are created during childhood for both subcutaneous and visceral fat. This number remains constant during adulthood. When people lose weight, their fat cells deflate but remain constant in number.

What researchers have found is that 75% of obese children grow up to be obese adults where only 10% of healthy weight children mature into obese adults. Refer to previous paragraph for part of the explanation, as well as poor eating styles. This disregards other health considerations that impact on obesity, including mental health issues that require medication which might also impact on weight gain.

Also, not every person has identical genetics when it comes to production of testosterone and T3/T4 levels. These hormone levels impact on caloric metabolic burn rates.

Anyways, just a few considerations that should have impact on your perspective.

You can argue the way you want: I work with professional doctors on this issue, both in France and Europe. I know it's an authority argument, but I don't bother, I just want to make it short and stop this legend about "genetic predisposition to obesity", because this legend is actually doing more harm than relief to most people, and make them feel irresponsible. Basic metabolism seems to have little influence on our final weight, contrary to what we eat, drink, and how much we exercise. Most of the time, it's as simple as that, but yet the majority of obese people are often desperate to find a medical excuse to their condition. They eat too much, they eat junk food, and they don't exercise enough. Yet it's the last thing they want to hear.

If the majority of the cases of morbid obesity were inherited, then why is the percentage of obese people rising with every new decade?
Just be rational.

What has changed is:

-Our diet
-Our lifestyle

And these are the main culprits of the current obesity pandemics. If you target these two factors, then you can stop the epidemy: it works.

 

[cafe]

You can argue the way you want: I work with professional doctors on this issue, both in France and Europe. I know it's an authority argument, but I don't bother, I just want to make it short and stop this legend about "genetic predisposition to obesity", because this legend is actually doing more harm than relief to most people, and make them feel irresponsible.

If the majority of the cases of morbid obesity were inherited, then why is the percentage of obese people rising with every new decade?
Just be rational.

What has changed is:

-Our diet
-Our lifestyle

And these are the main culprits of the current obesity pandemics. If you target these two factors, then you can stop the epidemy: it works.

I think the default is to gain weight in 'ideal' conditions because food has historically been insecure. A few of us have a different setting and do not become obese in the same conditions. Probably kind of a disadvantage under historically normal circumstances, but a bit of a golden ticket now.

 

[rav3n]

You can argue the way you want: I work with professional doctors on this issue, both in France and Europe. I know it's an authority argument, but I don't bother, I just want to make it short and stop this legend about "genetic predisposition to obesity", because this legend is actually doing more harm than relief to most people, and make them feel irresponsible.

If the majority of the cases of morbid obesity were inherited, then why is the percentage of obese people rising with every new decade?
Just be rational.

What has changed is:

-Our diet
-Our lifestyle

And these are the main culprit of the current obesity pandemics. If you target these two factors, then you can stop the epidemy: it works.

Are these the same doctors who believe that animal fats are bad? If so, they need refresher courses in their understanding of the human body and its interaction with food.

As far as diet and lifestyle are concerned, I do agree that these help. But they're only components of the overall problem when it comes to obesity.

Understand something. I'm not pro-obesity but I am anti-shaming, particularly when it comes from young males who are producing 10 - 20 times more testosterone than women.

 

[Blackmail!]

Are these the same doctors who believe that animal fats are bad? If so, they need refresher courses in their understanding of the human body and its interaction with food.

As far as diet and lifestyle are concerned, I do agree that these help. But they're only components of the overall problem when it comes to obesity.

Understand something. I'm not pro-obesity but I am anti-shaming, particularly when it comes from young males who are producing 10 - 20 times more testosterone than women.

Once again, basic metabolism has little influence on our weight. Once again, it's a legend, so unless you're talking of very specific cases, it's not a question of hormones. Unless, of course, we are talking of leptin, the hormone that regulates our appetite. Leptin levels are, indeed, very important, even if their effects are indirect.

 

[Blackmail!]

I think the default is to gain weight in 'ideal' conditions because food has historically been insecure. A few of us have a different setting and do not become obese in the same conditions. Probably kind of a disadvantage under historically normal circumstances, but a bit of a golden ticket now.

No. Unless you're talking of Pacific Islanders who can inherit diabete very easily because their ancestors have often faced starvation, and have been "naturally selected" accordingly.

But for the vast majority of people, the way you can get weight (or not) is absolutely the same.

If your diet is based solely on pizzas and sugary drinks, and if you sit all day long in your chair (at work or in your car), chances are you will gain weight. In the majority of cases, there's no need to find a subtler explaination.

 

[rav3n]

Once again, basic metabolism has little influence on our weight. Once again, it's a legend, so unless you're talking of very specific cases, it's not a question of hormones. Unless, of course, we are talking of leptin, the hormone that regulates our appetite. Leptin levels are, indeed, very important, even if their effects are indirect.

Yes, clearly, thyroxine has no impact on metabolic rate and hypo and hyperthyrodism are both myths.

Are you suggesting that testosterone doesn't help to increase energy burn, whether directly or indirectly?

 

[Blackmail!]

Yes, clearly, thyroxine has no impact on metabolic rate and hypo and hyperthyrodism are both myths.

Hypo or Hyperthyroidism prevalence is something like 0.2 to 2% according to countries.

Once again, you're refering only to very specific or isolated cases, while I'm refering to the vast majority of the people who are obese.

Are you suggesting that testosterone doesn't help to increase energy burn, whether directly or indirectly?

I'm just saying that according to most medical studies, only leptin seems to have a HUGE effect on the prevalence of obesity. Basic metabolism, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have such a noticeable effect, contrary to most legends.

As a side note, most junk food seems to deregulate normal leptin levels, hence the curious sensations of people who often go to fast food restaurants. A regular dose of daily exercise, on the other hand, not only helps to burn calories but also helps you to regulate leptin production once again.
This is why it's important to walk every day (at least one mile per day) and take the stairs everytime you can, while exercising only during the week end is in fact not that beneficial...