no link between austism and vaccines

[durentu]

I hear people talk about overdiagnosis. Does anyone know of a child who has been diagnosed where it seems to be misplaced? I just remember how HARD it was for my friend to get the doctors to admit that her son had autism. They kept saying they didn't want to "label" him and giving a vague sort of diagnosis yet because he wasn't labeled, my friend couldn't get access to the services she needed. He's clearly autistic that's not the point, the point is that doctors don't seem to commit to this diagnosis easily.

Her whole life became easier once he was finally diagnosed.

Specifically for this problem, the DSM-V will have the updated ASD section.

Proposed Revision | APA DSM-5

299.00
Autistic Disorder

Autism Spectrum Disorder
Must meet criteria 1, 2, and 3:

1. Clinically significant, persistent deficits in social communication and interactions, as manifest by all of the following:
a. Marked deficits in nonverbal and verbal communication used for social interaction:
b. Lack of social reciprocity;
c. Failure to develop and maintain peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
2. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least TWO of the following:
a. Stereotyped motor or verbal behaviors, or unusual sensory behaviors
b. Excessive adherence to routines and ritualized patterns of behavior
c. Restricted, fixated interests
3. Symptoms must be present in early childhood (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities)

 

[durentu]

The increase in autism per capita is staggering. 1 in 110 or 1 percent of the total population. What's changed in the past twenty years?

Or is it just the next evolutionary leap?

From alvin toffler

agriculture -> industrial -> knowledge

the more geeks screw, the more you get.

A Girl's Guide to Geek Guys

 

[man]

Yeah my immunology professor always goes on tirades about this. PP

Autism hasn't increased, just better methods of detecting it.

 

[Haphazard]

Self diagnosed Aspie, IQ 146-165. pattern thinker, auditory learner. I'll expand on my perception of what grandin says about "difficulties with english"

I don't have difficulties with the language in so much as it's a stupid language. It doesn't fit my thoughts at all. When writing, I have major difficulties condensing my thoughts to fit English. And when reading, it's very difficult to decode what the words actually mean. In short, the English language is insufficient and slapdash. To find precision and fine granularity in english is almost a complete waste of time. But it's a mandatory skill being in an english speaking country. This is why people like me find math/physics, circuits, music much more fitting.

networks like these flash in my head one after another. It's not painful, it's just how I think. And as I form ideas I link networks across each other and draw links and interesting things. But because my brain work this way, I'm not handicapped, the language is too narrow.

This is the language difficulty of the pattern thinking aspie like myself. When english is the output, there is a translation difficulty from this complexity into english language and rhetoric. When the input is english, there are incomplete and fuzzy links everywhere and thus requires guesswork or tons of questions to get a satisfying mental thought. Some of the questions are completely bizarre and unrelated only because the person being asked is unaware of the far reaching links that I'm trying to clarify or clean up.

Insights into the pattern thinking mind is rare so I write it here in hope to help someone.

Err. I'm going to have to ask: why haven't you tried learning another language, if English is so stupid to you? You may have to know English, but there's no requirement for you to think in it.

 

[Ivy]

Err. I'm going to have to ask: why haven't you tried learning another language, if English is so stupid to you? You may have to know English, but there's no requirement for you to think in it.

Learning another, maybe more "thinking in pictures"-compatible language (if one exists) doesn't do a person a lot of good if everyone they want to communicate with speaks English. I don't think durentu especially wants to think in a language- he's probably happy with the non-verbal thinking format, just has trouble translating it when he wants to communicate with others.

This is the impression I get of my son's language delays. He has trouble expressing himself verbally, but he's extremely smart. Scary smart. And I don't think that's just Mom-talk. He just has a non-verbal thinking style, I believe, and has trouble translating his thoughts into the English he has to speak to communicate with us.

 

[durentu]

Err. I'm going to have to ask: why haven't you tried learning another language, if English is so stupid to you? You may have to know English, but there's no requirement for you to think in it.

I did learn another language as a child. I spoke music. The trouble is that this world was ripped from me and in essence, I was maimed. From where my mind was free to express like a poet, I'm now limited to 'yes' and 'no' blinks of the eye. It really is that frustrating to me.

To speak in a language does define the thoughts. To speak in a language requires the speaker to think within the confines of that language. In a rigid sense, the Oxford dictionary is the complete set of thoughts an English speaking human is allowed to have. While it can be very vast and colorful, the underlying constructs of verbal/written language are alien to me. At the core, to speak a language is to think in a certain way.

The best way I can describe it is through proxy: synesthesia. Some people have this neurological condition where things appear as colors to people. Friday is blue, March is red, 999 is a deep brown, 3.1415(pi) is a beautiful landscape etc. This is qualia: the things of subjective experience that cannot be explained to another without a common understanding. It wasn't until recently that I noticed that people thought in words. When speaking, they see words in their heads. For the above syntheses, they see pictures and colors first, then the word. Not bad because it's fairly concrete and accurate. For me, the thoughts are abstract patterns which may not have a direct linguistic language correlation.

For instance: If we both see a mug, what do you see in your mind's eye? Probably the word 'cup' in your mind with some other things like 'coffee/tea' or 'hot' etc.

When I see a cup, I see a donut, I see a super galaxy and a child's entire lifetime. I see all these and few others at the same time. Let me explain.

1. The donut: if the cup was made out of clay, you can mold a cup into a donut and back without ripping or tearing the clay.

2. The super galaxy: Now take the donut and squash it to an atom's width. It will have a hole in the center. This is the black hole and the atom's are solar systems/planets in the galaxy.

3. The child's lifetime: A child must always have something missing from their life. If it was complete, then they would be content, and there's nothing to strive for. Thus while the clay is malleable to all extents of the imagination, there is still have hole, or missing piece that a child can strive for. For some, this is called happiness, perfection, god: That thing which cannot be obtained, but the effort is worthy.

As a child myself, I would blurt mis-identified things. Imagine my parents "What this? Can you say cup?" and I say "donut". After 30 minutes of cup/donut and telling me I'm wrong, they give me a donut. To which I would chuck the donut and start crying.

The trouble with thinking in abstract patterns is when being forced to speak quickly (verbal fights, speaking with managers/coworkers, asking a girl out for date, being 'normal' at parties, defending yourself in court/police etc).

It might be pointless to explain my difficulty with language, through language. I may have to make a movie.

 

[Ivy]

durentu, it makes perfect sense and it gives me an invaluable insight into my son's mind. Thank you.

 

[cafe]

My older son didn't seem overly bothered by his speech delay, but it drove my younger son nuts.

He would grab my face and hold it and make me say things until I got the right thing he wanted to say. He was so frustrated that sometimes he would just shriek.

I remember one time when we were at a shopping mall he started shrieking so loud and wouldn't stop. Looking back, the people, the noise, the high ceilings, etc must have been like propping his eyes open and shining a spotlight into them or putting a funnel down his throat and pouring Tabasco sauce down him. But he couldn't talk, so we didn't know.

My whole family thought we were horrible for spoiling our sons so much to make them so bratty. They weren't bratty. They were freaked out.

 

[Haphazard]

My point was that English is a stupid language. The more people have to learn a language, the simpler it gets -- thus English and Chinese, and with English's bastard ancestry, it's no surprise it's even stupider. Which is why I'm wondering if another language would be more suited to your needs.

As a synesthete, I can tell you, it's not exactly like that...

 

[Thalassa]

My point was that English is a stupid language. The more people have to learn a language, the simpler it gets -- thus English and Chinese,

Yes, English is a very "functional" language

and with English's bastard ancestry, it's no surprise it's even stupider.

English has the same ancestry as French and Russian. They all sprung from a common Indo-European language although they are structurally different. The fact that English is about 1/3 French makes it more similar to a romance language than it initially appears. I'm not sure what you mean by "bastardized" but all languages change and evolve.

Also, stupider isn't a word - kind of ironic for someone who is complaining about the language she's using being "bastardized."

Which is why I'm wondering if another language would be more suited to your needs.

I've always wanted to learn to speak a Slavik language, myself.

 

[Haphazard]

Yes, English is a very "functional" language



English has the same ancestry as French and Russian. They all sprung from a common Indo-European language although they are structurally different. The fact that English is about 1/3 French makes it more similar to a romance language than it initially appears. I'm not sure what you mean by "bastardized" but all languages change and evolve.

Also, stupider isn't a word - kind of ironic for someone who is complaining about the language she's using being "bastardized."



I've always wanted to learn to speak a Slavik language, myself.

Stupider should be a word. If we have "stupidest," there should be "stupider." It's only logical. Languages do not evolve if we don't make up words like this!

I'm not complaining about English being "bastardized" by people like me (which I fully encourage), but the history of English invasions and reformations makes it... a little weird, to say the least. It acts like one way once and then another way another time. And all of this invasion and invading forced it to simplify. But, really, I'm more wondering about non-indoeuropean languages that were more isolated and are often more precise than English and if these would be better for Durentu.

Then again there's the idea that linguistic relativity is bullshit. The Oxford (or in my case, Merriam Webster's) Dictionary is not a complete list of the thoughts we are allowed to have -- to make them more complicated, we just have to add more words.

 

[Thalassa]

Stupider should be a word. If we have "stupidest," there should be "stupider." It's only logical. Languages do not evolve if we don't make up words like this!

The changing grammatical rules is the primary thing that makes English less simple, which is hilarious since you're complaining about it's relative simplicity.

I'm not complaining about English being "bastardized" by people like me (which I fully encourage), but the history of English invasions and reformations makes it... a little weird, to say the least. It acts like one way once and then another way another time. And all of this invasion and invading forced it to simplify. But, really, I'm more wondering about non-indoeuropean languages that were more isolated and are often more precise than English and if these would be better for Durentu.

Slavik languages are more precise, and they spring from the Indo-European ancestor. That's one of the reasons why they interest me. Also, the focus on inflection rather than word order...

 

[Ivy]

I don't think English vs. any other language is the issue here. I think for a person who thinks in pictures, any language is necessarily a leash on their natural thinking process. Actually, it is for everyone, but the difference is probably more pronounced for autistics and especially those who mastered language late enough to remember their original OS.

 

[Haphazard]

The changing grammatical rules is the primary thing that makes English less simple, which is hilarious since you're complaining about it's relative simplicity.

Okay, so, according to you, we have "stupid," "more stupid," and "stupidest". However, all other times we either make these comparisons with "-er" and "est", like "high, higher, highest" and "loud, louder, loudest," or we do it with "more" or "most," like "painful, more painful, most painful," and "fashionable, more fashionable, most fashionable."

If it is true that "stupider" is not a word, then I'm merely fixing this hole in the language. However, I'm pretty sure that it is a word. Perhaps you are thinking of the rhyme with "boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider," which would be wrong.

This "stupid," "more stupid," and "stupidest" is a stupid exception to the comparisons rule. Let's unstupid it.

 

[durentu]

As a synesthete, I can tell you, it's not exactly like that...

True, but the main point is that our qualia, or subjective experiences are different. I cannot understand your qualia as you cannot understand mine exactly. The best I can do is to extend myself as far as I can to try to understand as well as you can try to extend yourself in helping me to understand. Since you didn't say that I was completely wrong, there's success in there.

 

[prplchknz]

I'M VEry visual and I learned language late and I still find it hard to put my thoughts into words and people just think I'm stupid but I know what I want to say just not how. Like I have full comprehension just communication isn't that great.

 

[cafe]

I don't think English vs. any other language is the issue here. I think for a person who thinks in pictures, any language is necessarily a leash on their natural thinking process. Actually, it is for everyone, but the difference is probably more pronounced for autistics and especially those who mastered language late enough to remember their original OS.

Weird. I don't remember being particularly visual, but I do remember feeling sad as a child when I realized I'd come to think in words exclusively and couldn't remember how not to.

 

[Ivy]

Weird. I don't remember being particularly visual, but I do remember feeling sad as a child when I realized I'd come to think in words exclusively and couldn't remember how not to.

Me too. I think I was more of an emotional thinker, or an intuitive
(not in the MBTI sense) thinker, not a visual one, but I remember it being a loss for me as well. Learning about Derrida and deconstruction in college was like meeting an old friend.

 

[heart]

I'M VEry visual and I learned language late and I still find it hard to put my thoughts into words and people just think I'm stupid but I know what I want to say just not how. Like I have full comprehension just communication isn't that great.

I relate to this very much.

I learned language early, I was painfully introverted in school but I was pretty facile with language all things considered but then when I was 25 developed a vestibular disorder and since then my thoughts are very often hard to put into words (among some other cognitive problems), just like I can't make that leap.

People do not understand. People often think I am being evasive or messing with them. I try with the people closest to me to tell them, look I can't put what I want to say into words right now. If I am bad at that moment it comes out, I can't say what I mean right now. Even then, the people around me usually won't accept that I am really having problems. I guess it is just hard for them to accept. I had trouble accepting it for several years, I thought I was going crazy or something but then I found an article on the cognitive effects of a vestibular disorder and began to understand better what was going on. I felt like the doctors who diagnosed me with it should have known about this, should have given me this info but even the Vestibular specialist never mentioned any of this.

I think it is why I like the internet so well. It's very easy to text, just not to talk.

 

[Betty Blue]

For you parents who have discarded "normal" and have taken the time to understand your children's reality: I'm grateful you exist to give others hope. I, however, wasn't so fortunate.

I tend to think of my children as themselves however labels are helpful in order to access information etc. I hope i am one of the parents you mention, i like to think i am or rather i feel i am. I am sorry you didn't have that.

Self diagnosed Aspie, IQ 146-165. pattern thinker, auditory learner. I'll expand on my perception of what grandin says about "difficulties with english"

I don't have difficulties with the language in so much as it's a stupid language. It doesn't fit my thoughts at all. When writing, I have major difficulties condensing my thoughts to fit English. And when reading, it's very difficult to decode what the words actually mean. In short, the English language is insufficient and slapdash. To find precision and fine granularity in english is almost a complete waste of time. But it's a mandatory skill being in an english speaking country. This is why people like me find math/physics, circuits, music much more fitting.

Most people think in words. I think in networks.

This is facinating to me. I understand the English language to be stupid in as much as it is inconsistant, irregular and bombastic. But i had not thought of it as insufficent, possibly because it suits my style of communication.
It seems to me that you are on a different level to me in this respect and you have given a real insight into something i had never befor given much thought to. It really is quite amazing (to me) that you think on such an elevated level.

How the heck to you condense this into english that is accurate and yet brief enough not to be as long as an encyclopedia?

Or better yet, one of my mind maps

2shared - download habituation.png

networks like these flash in my head one after another. It's not painful, it's just how I think. And as I form ideas I link networks across each other and draw links and interesting things. But because my brain work this way, I'm not handicapped, the language is too narrow.

I agree with you, you are clearly far from handicapped. I would hazard a guess to say your mind is more evolved than many others.

This is the language difficulty of the pattern thinking aspie like myself. When english is the output, there is a translation difficulty from this complexity into english language and rhetoric. When the input is english, there are incomplete and fuzzy links everywhere and thus requires guesswork or tons of questions to get a satisfying mental thought. Some of the questions are completely bizarre and unrelated only because the person being asked is unaware of the far reaching links that I'm trying to clarify or clean up.

Insights into the pattern thinking mind is rare so I write it here in hope to help someone.

Well i am certainly intrigued. I have a child with high functioning ASD and another with severe dyslexia and i am curious to learn if either would think in this style. I talked to my eldest about this and he explained that he (visually) sees something similar to a network when he thinks, prehaps more like a spider graph. I wanted to ask weather you see the networks visually when you think of them? Or are you solely using the images to portray your thought process?