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Obesity myth

Quinlan

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I didn't claim to, but I do have eyes and can make observations of the people around me. I have yet to see one truly obese person lead a consistently healthy lifestyle; they are either sedentary and/or have very poor eating habits. You just add 2 + 2 together...

I would rather not assume about the lifestyles of others unless I really know them, but that's just me.
 

Quinlan

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If you have ever thought badly about a person because of their size or pressured them to change their size for their own good, please I implore you to read this article, it is heartbreaking to me.

Junkfood Science: How we’ve come to believe that overeating causes obesity

“The heritability of obesity is equivalent to that of height and greater than that of almost every other condition that has been studied,” said Dr. Friedman. Someone genetically predisposed to obesity will become obese independent of their caloric intake, he explains.

But the average person eats one million or more calories each year, while weight changes very little, because energy balance is biologically regulated with a precision of greater than 99.5%, which far exceeds what can be consciously controlled, he explained

If this is true, then sizism is no different to racism in any way.
 

valmc

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BlueScreen

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Check the reliability of your sources. People write lots of things with agendas. No clues what her agenda is, but she is distorting stuff, and saying not much.

A quick Google search gives a few rebuttals of her statements. And also shows she's a food writer and marketing consultant who writes newspaper stories and for The Christian Science Monitor. In terms of her expertise, she has a bachelor of nursing science. I'm guessing there are in the range of 1000s of top level journal articles written by everything from doctors to professors in the field that say otherwise. I normally don't go on expert opinion only, but this seems senseless enough that it reminds me of the smoking companies saying cigarettes don't cause cancer.

I'll admit it is beneficial for people in medicine to see it as unhealthy and have something to treat, and also for people who want to sell diet programs. So they can have an agenda. But the bigger corporate beast seems to be fast food companies which need people to stop running to healthier food. The title of her article also suggests it is not aimed at improving things for the obese, but more to do with okaying junk food.
 

nightning

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Well to be the devil's advocate... racism isn't the same thing as sizism.

Currently your race has little impact on your medical therapy. It doesn't matter whether you're black or white or asian or caucasian... you get (should get) the same treatment... hooked-up to the same machines etc.

Not so with people who're severely overweight. They don't fit standard beds, blood pressure cuffs just to name a few. They need their own set of custom-sized equipment and devices. This wouldn't be a problem if these people pay for the cost of such themselves... but they don't. The rest of us have to share the burden of the extra cost... not to mention cost for their extended hospital stays.

Doctors are a lot more careful doing operations on unfit obese individuals... that also leads to longer monitoring times before and after surgery which adds to costs and use of hospital bed.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Precisely, Nightning. It's always nice when there are people who pick up the ball where I decided to pass it up.

I understand discrimination as being justified on two bases. One is accountability, and the other is detriment. If there isn't a good case that a demographic of people can be held for either, than the discrimination is unjustified.

In the case of blacks, they are not accountable for being black and being black doesn't cause any problems. Now, even if your article were true (and I'm skeptical), "sizism" would not be the same as racism. Your article would only assure us that obese people are not accountable, but it wouldn't change the fact that obesity is detrimental. Blind people, the mentally challenged, and people infected with TB, may not accountable for their situations, but it would be a bad idea to not discriminate them in some ways. You pretty much have to, because those conditions alter circumstances so much.
 

The Decline

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There is a significant social factor in obesity. Society is set up in a way that encourages obesity in some respects, while at the same time damning those who are not of an ideal body type- this does not bode well generally when people are told that their natural urges are sinful. What we put on the table to eat is heavily culturally influenced, and people in developed countries (especially America) simply do not eat well. While you could look at this ever-increasing evidence to suggest that society pulls the strings as to how an individual manages their diet, there's still agency to the individual, despite environmental factors. Simply put, living in such a society means that the individual is fighting an uphill battle against obesity.

In my mind then, there are similarities between "sizism" and racism in that they are identities society will recognize and treat you differently for. Not only that, but society builds and maintains these identities, and greatly encourages people to not have such identities. Most often being obese can be changed by the individual, unlike racism, which puts the strain on them more because society also places heavy significance on merit; obese people are seen as failures in this regard.

Obesity is clearly not healthy, and society is not seeking to help these people. By placing judgment and blame on them, some of the obese may become spiteful and disdainful at anyone who tells them that obesity is bad for them, and that they should help themselves. As a society we should change our attitudes towards the obese, because at the moment we are, in a sense, simply enabling the problem. Social attitudes towards body image and diet could clearly use overhauling, as well as providing the obese and those at risk to obesity the tools and help that they require to make appropriate choices.
 

Blank

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Also: You can't really change your skin color, but you can change obesity with proper dieting and exercise.
 

Quinlan

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So I suppose you're all for user pays healthcare? That is fine, but should all people with genetic diseases/differences pay more for their extra costs? It seems harsh to me, especially if they can't afford it (correlation with low income). Personally I don't mind paying more for those that need more.

That is not neccesarily what I mean by sizism though, what I mean is the endless rhetoric from the media, governments, health industry and the general public, that fat is horrific and that people that are fat are horrific and that it's all their own fault. I hate seeing them constantly held up as symbols of greed and sloth. I hate seeing little girls thinking they're "fat and ugly" as they imitate their mother's self hatred. I hate seeing people avoid going to the doctor when they are sick because of the constant bashing they get about losing weight.

It's cruel and disgusting, and it's all for something out of their control.
 

The Decline

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You can change your social class with a good pulling up of your bootstraps, but the fact remains that classism is a huge problem.
 

Quinlan

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Also: You can't really change your skin color, but you can change obesity with proper dieting and exercise.

Did you even read about the original study in that article? Without starvation obesity is a genetic enivitability for much of the population.

Show me one study that proves that a statistically significant number of people can go from obese to normal weight and maintain that for greater than 5 years.
 

The Decline

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Did you even read about the original study in that article? Without starvation obesity is a genetic enivitability for much of the population.

Show me one study that proves that a statistically significant number of people can go from obese to normal weight and maintain that for greater than 5 years.

A specific calorie diet is ill-defined. What exactly did the diet entail? Certain food choices in a diet vary tremendously in their weight-loss effect. Eating nothing but ground hamburger as opposed to a Mediterranean diet of the same calorie count will surely make you fatter. Besides the questionable methodology, a study with 50 respondents is not quite significant.

For example, this study appears to outline the differences in diets and their BMI losses. Elsevier: Article Locator
 

Quinlan

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Check the reliability of your sources. People write lots of things with agendas. No clues what her agenda is, but she is distorting stuff, and saying not much.

Don't assume that I blindly accept her opinion, but the results of the original study are plain to see. You should be equally (if not more concious) of the massive agenda and funding pumped into keeping fat as "evil".

A quick Google search gives a few rebuttals of her statements.

Please present them if you have the time.

And also shows she's a food writer and marketing consultant who writes newspaper stories and for The Christian Science Monitor. In terms of her expertise, she has a bachelor of nursing science. I'm guessing there are in the range of 1000s of top level journal articles written by everything from doctors to professors in the field that say otherwise. I normally don't go on expert opinion only, but this seems senseless enough that it reminds me of the smoking companies saying cigarettes don't cause cancer.

Can you not come to your own conclusion as to the study findings she has presented? Indeed it does not fit with our intuitive ingrained beliefs but that is exactly why it needs more attention, we dismiss it off hand because it doesn't fit with our current beliefs.

The title of her article also suggests it is not aimed at improving things for the obese, but more to do with okaying junk food.

"Junk food" science refers to the nature of a lot of the "scientific" studies she dissects, this particular study on the other hand is very robust and unlikely to be repeated (as it's essentially torture) but that is what makes it so powerful. You can go on for hours about statistical correlations but when you put real people in controlled conditions and make them lose that much weight, the results are compelling and as close to definitive as you're probably ever gunna get.

So far you have only presented Ad Hominem against her so far.
 

Quinlan

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A specific calorie diet is ill-defined. What exactly did the diet entail? Certain food choices in a diet vary tremendously in their weight-loss effect. Eating nothing but ground hamburger as opposed to a Mediterranean diet of the same calorie count will surely make you fatter.

Well show me the study where obese people on the mediterranian diet lost down to "normal" weight and stayed there for greater than 5 years. If you can't then you're just speculating.
 

Quinlan

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A specific calorie diet is ill-defined. What exactly did the diet entail? Certain food choices in a diet vary tremendously in their weight-loss effect. Eating nothing but ground hamburger as opposed to a Mediterranean diet of the same calorie count will surely make you fatter. Besides the questionable methodology, a study with 50 respondents is not quite significant.

It's probably as close to true data you're going to get, without torturing people further.
 

The Decline

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Well show me the study where obese people on the mediterranian diet lost down to "normal" weight and stayed there for greater than 5 years. If you can't then you're just speculating.

A randomized controlled trial of a moderate-fat, low-energy diet compared with a low fat, low-energy diet for weight loss in overweight adults

RESULTS: After 18 months, 31/50 subjects in the moderate-fat group, and 30/51 in the low fat group were available for measurements. In the moderate-fat group, there were mean decreases in body weight of 4.1 kg, body mass index of 1.6 kg/m[SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE], and waist circumference of 6.9 cm, compared to increases in the low-fat group of 2.9 kg, 1.4 kg/m[SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE] and 2.6 cm, respectively; P£0.001 between the groups. The difference in weight change between the groups was 7.0 kg. (95% CI 5.3, 8.7). Only 20% (10/51) of those in the low-fat group were actively participating in the weight loss program after 18 months compared to 54% (27/50) in the moderate-fat group, (P<0.002). The moderate-fat diet group was continued for an additional year. The mean weight loss after 30 months compared to baseline was 3.5 kg (n=19, P=0.03).
CONCLUSIONS: A moderate-fat, Mediterranean-style diet, controlled in energy, offers an alternative to a low-fat diet with superior long-term participation and adherence, with consequent improvements in weight loss.

Sure, this was only over a span of 18 months, but that's all I could find so far.

It's probably as close to true data you're going to get, without torturing people further.

Well, there's a measurement of significance in statistics called a P value, and without knowing that (I couldn't find the actual study from your article), the significance of the results are questionable.
 

Quinlan

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Sure, this was only over a span of 18 months, but that's all I could find so far.


Haha the average weight loss after 30 months was a mere 3.5Kgs, an obese person is still very likely to be obese after that tiny loss. A reduction of just 3.5kgs is not going to result in significant health benefits anyway.
 

The Decline

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Okay, I can understand that these obese people have an urge to eat and that forcing them into a diet that restricts them to a narrow caloric intake diet will cause them mental and seemingly physiological distress, but then why are Americans at large more obese than other populations? I'm thinking that low-energy diets are consumed more often in other countries by their obese people, and that they fulfill their needs to eat in an equal way, just with other diets. The other option is that America simply breeds fatties, which would have to do with societal factors.

This is intriguing. It's hard to conceptualize that obese people require a BMI level to maintain; instead I think their bodies are just used to (from genetics or what have you) requiring a certain level of food to be going into their bodies in some constant rate. This would account for the overall discrepancies in American BMIs compared to others, since their diets are more low-energy than Americans'.
 

The Decline

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Haha the average weight loss after 30 months was a mere 3.5Kgs, an obese person is still very likely to be obese after that tiny loss. A reduction of just 3.5kgs is not going to result in significant health benefits anyway.

Yes well, that was just to show you the significance of differing diets. Obese people wouldn't have to "torture" themselves as much to hit a specific weight goal, as weight loss is not a simply measure of caloric restrictions. 90% difference between diets is not something to take lightly.

Also, this discussion has gotten me thinking: how big a part of the obesity-health consequences is related to diet? I'm sure there may be moderately obese people on a healthy diet (a weight average that their bodies are attuned to) that do not suffer as many health consequences as similarly obese people eating unhealthily. This is conjecture, but something to investigate for sure. For example, you may be able to be obese eating a diet that does not correlate so highly to diseases like heart disease, since diet is very much a factor in such diseases.
 
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