Obesity myth

[01011010]

Anyone who doesn't believe obesity is an issue in the US hasn't had the dubious pleasure of walking through Walmart on the weekend.

Seriously.

 

[Thalassa]

Seriously.

Or even working at grocery store in West Virginia. We have a particularly high number of obese people in this state.

On the bright side, it's made me more health-conscious.

 

[Quinlan]

I think these are a few things that are very likely to be myths;

• If Obese people live a moderate lifestyle, the excess weight will just fall off
  (I believe living outside of your natural metabolic range is incredibly hard)
• Obese people are naturally normal sized people that gorge to excess
  (probably some are but I think it takes a tremendous amount of eating and sloth to stay that far out of your metabolic range, beyond most people and probably quite an effort)
• That there is a "normal" weight range that every individual should fit no matter what their frame, body shape, metabolism, muscle mass and genetics are
• That the process of turning a very obese person into a normal weight person is always beneficial
• That there is no genetic link in obesity or that the genetic link is insignificant when it comes to keeping weight off (when your fighting your genetic makeup your always battling uphill)
• If everyone ate the same and exercised the same we would all be the same size

I think it's a myth that all obese people are living abnormal lifestyles (the very obese/super obese is a different story), I think most people in the west live typical western lifestyles, it's just that many of those people don't have the genetic privilege of being able to hide the results of living the typical western lifestyle. Like Oberon said I think refined carbohydrates are a big problem in our diet, and most people of all sizes are guilty of eating too much of that.

When it comes to risk factors there are increased risks for some illnesses that come with being obese but there are also some decreased risks for other things, so it balances out in a way. There are also increased risks for some illnesses from being underweight and "normal" weight as well. So it seems that being in the "overweight" range while still exercising and eating well is a good way of hedging your bets.

We all seem to accept that there can be skinny people that no matter how hard they try just can't put the weight on yet we don't accept as easily that there may be obese people with the same problem going the other way.

 

[Quinlan]

No, it makes perfect sense that obesity in and of itself would increase risk of heart failure. The human heart is suited to supply a certain number of blood vessels over a certain area. The area and number of blood vessels go well over the adapted amount when a person becomes obese, so the heart has to hustle 24/7. Also, the whole added weight thing produces sheer stress on the body. This is a reason that fat people tend to get winded way faster. It takes much more force and energy to move that mass around. The pressure itself is condusive to heart attacks.

Isn't regular exertion of the heart a good thing for it? Isn't that why we do jogging, to get your heart pumping hard? In an obese person the heart has to pump blood further, therefore getting a "workout" without having to run miles? I think I heard this somewhere, that their heart can actually be strong and more prepared for later life, do you think that's a possibility?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Isn't regular exertion of the heart a good thing for it? Isn't that why we do jogging, to get your heart pumping hard? In an obese person the heart has to pump blood further, therefore getting a "workout" without having to run miles? I think I heard this somewhere, that their heart can actually be strong and more prepared for later life, do you think that's a possibility?

For working-out to provide physical benefits, you have to pace yourself. Being obese is an endless work-out. And for the record, a lot of people that work-out to the extreme do die of heart attacks, even in the middle of doing it.

Generally, you should be spending more of your life regenerating than strengthening yourself. If it tips the other way, than you're just killing yourself.

EDIT: Also, even if they were in the same intervals, I wonder if exercise could ever simulate the effects of operating an obese body.

 

[Quinlan]

EDIT: Also, even if they were in the same intervals, I wonder if exercise could ever simulate the effects of operating an obese body.

That makes me feel even more compassionate for them.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

That makes me feel even more compassionate for them.

I have the notion that being compassionate toward someone who is obese would involve helping them lose weight. I tend to include among compassion a desire to keep people from debilitating and killing themselves.

EDIT: I ommit suicide in cases of extreme, uncurable pain, and things of that nature.

 

[Quinlan]

I have the notion that being compassionate toward someone who is obese would involve helping them lose weight. I tend to include among compassion a desire to keep people from debilitating and killing themselves.

EDIT: I ommit suicide in cases of extreme, uncurable pain, and things of that nature.

That extends to people of all sizes, I see people living unhealthy lifestyles of all sizes, so of course I would want to see them take better care of themselves but I won't assume that just because someone's BMI creeps over 30 that they're all of a sudden killing themselves (and weren't when they weighed a Kg less).

I would encourage an obese person to eat well (small amounts often and to avoid refined carbs and sugars), I would also encourage them to exercise regularly BUT if they did that and the weight still didn't fall off them, I wouldn't push them harder to lose the weight (especially if all other indicators of health were good). Anyway our attempts to "help" often does nothing more than exasperate the problem (or cause other ones).

I have been thinking about this recently, I think that "weight loss" is actually used by public health officials as the carrot on the end of the stick to get people in general to eat less and exercise more, I think they know that the goal of being "slim and beautiful" is much more motivating than the goal of "reducing risk factors for health problems in the long term". I think that health officials have at times fallen on the side of idealogy and manipulation rather than honest informing of the facts.

 

[BlueScreen]

You can't get fat without eating the Calories and not using enough energy to get rid of them. Some people might be born with the habit of eating more and exercising less maybe. But body-wise, I'd think anything but lack of muscle to burn it wouldn't make much difference from person to person. I saw my friend drop 10kgs from just substituting Coke for sugar free Coke, and making sure Calories stayed within a certain range. He didn't even stop eating fast food or exercise. And similar things are probably where Americans get their obesity from. They probably think they won't eat food with fat, but then load up on sugar or something else. Like Coke can get you there on its own. And walking isn't that energy consuming as exercise, so if you live in a country where you never move faster than walking pace, you probably don't use much energy to counter it. Also some get self-conscious about being fat, then go out less, eat more, and get fatter. Genetic differences would keep people at different ends of the sensible range at the most. Obesity requires something extra.

 

[nightning]

That extends to people of all sizes, I see people living unhealthy lifestyles of all sizes, so of course I would want to see them take better care of themselves but I won't assume that just because someone's BMI creeps over 30 that they're all of a sudden killing themselves (and weren't when they weighed a Kg less).

The BMI 30 is an arbitrary cutoff. Risk of cardiovascular disease is nearly as high with BMI of say 29.

I would encourage an obese person to eat well (small amounts often and to avoid refined carbs and sugars), I would also encourage them to exercise regularly BUT if they did that and the weight still didn't fall off them, I wouldn't push them harder to lose the weight (especially if all other indicators of health were good). Anyway our attempts to "help" often does nothing more than exasperate the problem (or cause other ones).

Contrary to popular beliefs... It's actually how much you eat and exercise as oppose to what you eat that leads to weight gain. Of course here in this case I'm not refering to cardiovascular diseases... for that you should avoid high salt and fatty diet. Refined carbs and sugars themselves don't tend to do much according to clinical RCTs. This only makes sense because the body can convert all forms of fats, carbs, proteins to simple sugar... and from simple sugar back into fat for storage. Complex starches are helpful mostly in diabetic patients with difficulties maintaining consistent blood glucose. Not so much for the rest of us.

I have been thinking about this recently, I think that "weight loss" is actually used by public health officials as the carrot on the end of the stick to get people in general to eat less and exercise more, I think they know that the goal of being "slim and beautiful" is much more motivating than the goal of "reducing risk factors for health problems in the long term". I think that health officials have at times fallen on the side of idealogy and manipulation rather than honest informing of the facts.

See the problem here is not with the health officials... but rather how to explain something to the general public in the most effective manner to see results. Most people don't have the background in health science to understand nor are they willing to spend a lot of time find out about research findings. Instead they rely on the news. News only sells when its segmented into little spoonfuls, else the viewer/reader/listener gets bored and goes do something else.

So what is the most simplified thing you can tell people? Simply that obesity is bad news...

You can't get fat without eating the Calories and not using enough energy to get rid of them. Some people might be born with the habit of eating more and exercising less maybe. But body-wise, I'd think anything but lack of muscle to burn it wouldn't make much difference from person to person. I saw my friend drop 10kgs from just substituting Coke for sugar free Coke, and making sure Calories stayed within a certain range. He didn't even stop eating fast food or exercise. And similar things are probably where Americans get their obesity from. They probably think they won't eat food with fat, but then load up on sugar or something else. Like Coke can get you there on its own.

Exactly! See, if we're still hunter and gatherers, then obesity will no longer be a problem. People are built for a more active lifestyle than what most of us are getting in the current day and age. Fat storage and our likes of sugars and fat is build for surviving periods of famine or starvation... since we don't have that any more... people become overweight.

About magic's point on exercises for the obese... if you force somebody/anybody to suddenly exercise more than they're used to. You'll stress out their hearts... For people with coronary obstruction (and this is not just limited to fat people), you can get a sudden heart attack... or angina in mild cases. Fat people in general do more work walking around than the rest of us do while walking. Their hearts are working much harder just to walk... imagine if they have to climb stairs or something... more stress = dangerous.

Excuse my rant.

 

[Feops]

Obesity is generally a symptom of an unhealthy lifestyle.

I say generally because certain people can live like sloths and remain thin, while others need to work quite hard at it. Such is genetics. But on average, people that exercise more and eat better are less afflicted.

 

[Quinlan]

The BMI 30 is an arbitrary cutoff. Risk of cardiovascular disease is nearly as high with BMI of say 29.

The whole thing is pretty arbitrary to me. I think an "unhealthiness epidemic" is much more accurate description than an "obesity epidemic", there are some very healthy and muscular individuals in the obese range, it is a scattergun rather than targeted approach. By obsessing about the obese we almost excuse all the unhealthy individuals in the other ranges by default.

Contrary to popular beliefs... It's actually how much you eat and exercise as oppose to what you eat that leads to weight gain. Of course here in this case I'm not refering to cardiovascular diseases... for that you should avoid high salt and fatty diet. Refined carbs and sugars themselves don't tend to do much according to clinical RCTs. This only makes sense because the body can convert all forms of fats, carbs, proteins to simple sugar... and from simple sugar back into fat for storage. Complex starches are helpful mostly in diabetic patients with difficulties maintaining consistent blood glucose. Not so much for the rest of us.

What about the blood sugar spike that comes with eating refined carbs? I have heard that this spike disrupts signals to our brain and it basically shuts down the fat burning process.?

David Ludwig, the Harvard endocrinologist, says that it's the direct effect of insulin on blood sugar that does the trick. He notes that when diabetics get too much insulin, their blood sugar drops and they get ravenously hungry. They gain weight because they eat more, and the insulin promotes fat deposition. The same happens with lab animals. This, he says, is effectively what happens when we eat carbohydrates -- in particular sugar and starches like potatoes and rice, or anything made from flour, like a slice of white bread. These are known in the jargon as high-glycemic-index carbohydrates, which means they are absorbed quickly into the blood. As a result, they cause a spike of blood sugar and a surge of insulin within minutes. The resulting rush of insulin stores the blood sugar away and a few hours later, your blood sugar is lower than it was before you ate. As Ludwig explains, your body effectively thinks it has run out of fuel, but the insulin is still high enough to prevent you from burning your own fat. The result is hunger and a craving for more carbohydrates. It's another vicious circle, and another situation ripe for obesity.

What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie? - The New York Times (very interesting article)

See the problem here is not with the health officials... but rather how to explain something to the general public in the most effective manner to see results. Most people don't have the background in health science to understand nor are they willing to spend a lot of time find out about research findings. Instead they rely on the news. News only sells when its segmented into little spoonfuls, else the viewer/reader/listener gets bored and goes do something else.

So what is the most simplified thing you can tell people? Simply that obesity is bad news...

Something makes me uneasy about scientists manipulating rather than directly informing.

 

[nightning]

The whole thing is pretty arbitrary to me. I think an "unhealthiness epidemic" is much more accurate description than an "obesity epidemic", there are some very healthy and muscular individuals in the obese range, it is a scattergun rather than targeted approach. By obsessing about the obese we almost excuse all the unhealthy individuals in the other ranges by default.

The best index is taking a body fat % measurement. The second I think is the correlation they found with waist to hip ratio. BMI is used because that's what people are most familiar with. There are cases when this might be inaccurate, but in general it fits. For obviously muscular/dense boned individuals... I think it's safe to say they're not obese. Remember the MBI is nothing more than a guideline. It's easy to measure, and it's been around for so long that to suddenly switch to something else is impractical. That's why it is still used.

What about the blood sugar spike that comes with eating refined carbs? I have heard that this spike disrupts signals to our brain and it basically shuts down the fat burning process.?

Are you diabetic? As I said before... for most of us our bodies are very good at regulating blood glucose levels. So this is not an issue.

An article I found recently that might interest you
Science and Pseudoscience in Adult Nutrition Research and Practice

Something makes me uneasy about scientists manipulating rather than directly informing.

Actually, one of the main flaws in the scientific community is their lack in going out to educate the public and letting their research be known. They publish within scientific journals, attend conventions etc... but that's only sharing information with other scientists... those in the same/similar fields. None of this gets to the public unless the media finds research results which they can put a spin on.

The public health advisory boards set out guidelines... We have the Canada's Food Guide that gets updated annually here and you can find out more information on their documentations. But nobody (as in the average person) reads those thing. Anything you hear about is from the media... or advertisements.

It's manipulation yes... but not in part of the scientists, just the media.

And if you try to put the scientist head to head against the media... Sensationalism wins every time. And when a scientist/doctor/whatever "professional" attempts to show passion about their beliefs... the public gets upset (re donut = death thread). You can't win.

 

[Quinlan]

For obviously muscular/dense boned individuals... I think it's safe to say they're not obese.

But they are obese (without question)! They have the "disease" of obesity because their body weight falls within a certain range for their height. They are a part of the "epidemic".

Perhaps I just have a very impractical dislike for generalisations.

 

[Quinlan]

This article is quite a revelation:

Social Stress Linked To Harmful Fat Deposits, Heart Disease

A new study done by researchers at Wake Forest University School of Medicine shows that social stress could be an important precursor to heart disease by causing the body to deposit more fat in the abdominal cavity, speeding the harmful buildup of plaque in blood vessels, a stepping stone to the number one cause of death in the world.

How much of the health problems correlated with obesity could be caused by the social stress of being obese? Could picking on fat people and being hysterical about their weight throughout their lives be actually causing the very problems people want to "save" them from?

 

[Clonester]

There are so many variables with obesity and links to diseases that it makes it hard to prove either way. But on an anecdotal basis I see a lot of people make very poor choices when it comes to health/diet/exercise and it very often ends up with a poor result.

I think most who live a balanced life in regards to their health tend to make a few poor decisions, but overall a lot of good ones. The ones who are unhealthy (obese or not) make many poor decisions. I think everyone owes it to themselves to spend a few days tracking the amount of calories that they eat per day. Some people have no idea they eat WAY too much. It bothers me when people go and eat a 1500 calorie meal at a restaurant but justify it because they had a salad with their lunch instead of the potato chips. That's fine, but if you still had a 1000 calorie lunch on top of your breakfast, you're going to be gaining weight. I also think people owe it to themselves to educate themselves on a balanced diet, and get some exercise into your week.

 

[Thalassa]

This article is quite a revelation:

Social Stress Linked To Harmful Fat Deposits, Heart Disease



How much of the health problems correlated with obesity could be caused by the social stress of being obese? Could picking on fat people and being hysterical about their weight throughout their lives be actually causing the very problems people want to "save" them from?

I think it also could be lack of exercise, obese or not. People are supposed to be at least moderately active. So I'm sure a whole host of health problems accompany an extremely sedentary lifestyle even if one is not obese. The likelihood of an obese person being extremely sedentary are surely increased, and there in perhaps lies the increased risks to health.

 

[OrangeAppled]

For obviously muscular/dense boned individuals... I think it's safe to say they're not obese.

Exactly; you pretty much have to be a body builder to have a BMI in the obese range and not be over-fat.

Conversely, a person with too low BMI may have a very small frame for their height. No one defends them though. If someone can be a bit overweight and still be healthy, then why not a bit underweight?

I also want to see where all these truly obese people who eat very healthy in moderate amounts and get adequate exercise are hiding :rolli:

 

[Quinlan]

Conversely, a person with too low BMI may have a very small frame for their height. No one defends them though. If someone can be a bit overweight and still be healthy, then why not a bit underweight?

I would defend them, but there isn't an "underweight" epidemic going on at the moment. Of course you can be underweight and healthy! Naturally underweight people shouldn't pe harassed and teased about "eating disorders" or have an arbitrary standard applied to them that doesn't consider their lifestlye. I will very much defend the naturally underweight. The ironic thing is that most men in the "normal" weight range are probably keen to put on a fair bit more muscle mass because the normal range does seem a bit meek, lots of guys like to "bulk up" their muscle mass, without neccessarily being body builders.

I also want to see where all these truly obese people who eat very healthy in moderate amounts and get adequate exercise are hiding :rolli:

So you're able to assess everyone's lifestlye are you? How do you find the time?

 

[OrangeAppled]

I would defend them, but there isn't an "underweight" epidemic going on at the moment. Of course you can be underweight and healthy! Naturally underweight people shouldn't pe harassed and teased about "eating disorders" or have an arbitrary standard applied to them that doesn't consider their lifestyle. I will very much defend the naturally underweight.

Most people don't have that attitude though, and you hear just as much about eating disorders and anorexia as you do the "obesity epidemic".

So you're able to assess everyone's lifestlye are you? How do you find the time?

I didn't claim to, but I do have eyes and can make observations of the people around me. I have yet to see one truly obese person lead a consistently healthy lifestyle; they are either sedentary and/or have very poor eating habits. You just add 2 + 2 together...