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  1. #21
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    I'm speaking from experience here. I've had many long conversations with mental health professionals regarding myself and it ultimately comes down to their word against mine.

    If they demonstrated to me that they actually understood human psychological functioning to a degree that warranted their claims, then that would be fine, but they have indicated a lack of insight time and time again.

    But of course, they can claim that I lack insight without proving it, and they have the power to enforce the "treatment" they want to, regardless of the effects it has on me.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Psychiatry does not have the level of evidence associated with it that medicine does. Honestly, you seem to just be buying into the narrative that the mental health system is propagating without really thinking critically about it.

    I've heard it said that there are no objective tests that can be conducted to determine if a patient does in fact suffer (or "suffer") from schizophrenia or not.

    So, suppose that schizophrenia is a real thing that a person either has or does not have. Now, suppose that a person has been diagnosed as a schizophrenic, but it was a misdiagnosis. Suppose that what the psychiatrist thought of as schizophrenia was in fact an appropriate reaction to circumstance and there was no chemical imbalance.

    In that situation, the imagined conversations that I just posted could easily approximate the actual conversations between the psychiatrist and patient.

    Patient: "I'm not schizophrenic." (correct)
    Psychiatrist: "Yes you are, but you don't know it because you lack insight." (incorrect)
    Patient: "Well, prove that I have schizophrenia then."
    Psychiatrist: "There are no objective tests to prove it, but I am a medically trained professional, I know."
    Patient: "Ok fine, maybe I'm schizophrenic then, but so what, just let me live my life!"
    Psychiatrist: "No, you must be medicated with anti-psychotics for the rest of your life. You can either accept this willingly, or unwillingly."


    Surely you must recognise that even if psychiatric diagnosis is valid a lot of the time, it is also invalid a lot of the time. Try reading about anti-psychiatry, or alternate paradigms related to psychosis like spiritual emergency.
    Even in medicine, in a lot of cases there is a list of symptoms doctors look for and use in absence of giving a test. It's called a clinical diagnosis. Doctors look at the patient's history and symptoms to match them to an objective diagnosis that can be evidenced with a test but often doesn't need to be, just like mental illness can be evidenced with a brain scan but often doesn't need to be, since it's already apparent enough from the history and symptoms. There would be no history and symptoms in either case without a functional issue stemming from the person's physiology. Someday it would be amazing if everyone going for psychiatric care could get a brain scan, but that research is still in its infancy, not to mention it would be very expensive. But as the field advances, I'm sure it'll happen. In the meantime, so many people find improvement from meds, and reuptake inhibition of neurotransmitters would not be effective if a person didn't have a deficit in the first place. That in itself is proof of a structural pathology.

    I agree that there are misdiagnoses, which is unfortunate, but it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater by focusing on rare exceptions to try to delegitimatize a majority of correct diagnoses. That's dangerous. I also think that if a person really does not have schizophrenia, it will become apparent with time, and their diagnosis will be adjusted. It's likely that if someone was diagnosed with that, then they have had some incidence of psychosis, which would need medical treatment regardless of whether it's stemming from schizophrenia or bipolar or something else.

    It's strange that you claim psychiatry does not have sufficient levels of medical evidence and then bring up "spiritual emergency," which has no evidence at all. It's just belief in something that disregards reason and rationalization entirely.
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  3. #23
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    I can only speak for myself but my mental illness just means pain and fear and I would chose to recover from it in a heart beat

    Some glorify mental illness and I suppose thats fine for them. But mine has only been painful and limiting.

    Antispsychotics suck. But it also sucks to- well- lose my chance at life. If I were to look at it objectively- from before I had the illness- and choose the life I want to have- it wouldnt be one that involves me in and out of hospitals or otherwise unable to care for myself. And the thing is- my illness is bad enough for that to definitely be a life that is more than on the table for me without drugs.

    Im sick. And its a sickness. Yes occasionally hypomania and mania and even psychosis- can bring unexpected gifts- but its not worth the pain for me. I just want to live a real life. And that means keeping aware of all the potential influences that can pull me away from that.

    Im just speaking of my own experiences. Yes. Mania and psychosis can bring a level of empowerment while im experiencing them. Drugs can do the same thing. It doesnt mean either of them is a good thing in my experience- because after both states are done- you are left staring at the mess youve made and thinking... just what have I done.

    And that experience is heart breaking
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  4. #24
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drapeaux View Post
    Even in medicine, in a lot of cases there is a list of symptoms doctors look for and use in absence of giving a test. It's called a clinical diagnosis. Doctors look at the patient's history and symptoms to match them to an objective diagnosis that can be evidenced with a test but often doesn't need to be, just like mental illness can be evidenced with a brain scan but often doesn't need to be, since it's already apparent enough from the history and symptoms. There would be no history and symptoms in either case without a functional issue stemming from the person's physiology. Someday it would be amazing if everyone going for psychiatric care could get a brain scan, but that research is still in its infancy, not to mention it would be very expensive. But as the field advances, I'm sure it'll happen. In the meantime, so many people find improvement from meds, and reuptake inhibition of neurotransmitters would not be effective if a person didn't have a deficit in the first place. That in itself is proof of a structural pathology.

    I agree that there are misdiagnoses, which is unfortunate, but it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater by focusing on rare exceptions to try to delegitimatize a majority of correct diagnoses. That's dangerous. I also think that if a person really does not have schizophrenia, it will become apparent with time, and their diagnosis will be adjusted. It's likely that if someone was diagnosed with that, then they have had some incidence of psychosis, which would need medical treatment regardless of whether it's stemming from schizophrenia or bipolar or something else.

    It's strange that you claim psychiatry does not have sufficient levels of medical evidence and then bring up "spiritual emergency," which has no evidence at all. It's just belief in something that disregards reason and rationalization entirely.
    Look, the fact is that legitimate spiritual experience, and healthy personal development, are being construed as being "mentally ill" because they do not fit the worldview of the people who are creating the diagnoses.

    If you do not see this, you either haven't looked, or you are blind.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    I can only speak for myself but my mental illness just means pain and fear and I would chose to recover from it in a heart beat

    Some glorify mental illness and I suppose thats fine for them. But mine has only been painful and limiting.

    Antispsychotics suck. But it also sucks to- well- lose my chance at life. If I were to look at it objectively- from before I had the illness- and choose the life I want to have- it wouldnt be one that involves me in and out of hospitals or otherwise unable to care for myself. And the thing is- my illness is bad enough for that to definitely be a life that is more than on the table for me without drugs.

    Im sick. And its a sickness. Yes occasionally hypomania and mania and even psychosis- can bring unexpected gifts- but its not worth the pain for me. I just want to live a real life. And that means keeping aware of all the potential influences that can pull me away from that.

    Im just speaking of my own experiences. Yes. Mania and psychosis can bring a level of empowerment while im experiencing them. Drugs can do the same thing. It doesnt mean either of them is a good thing in my experience- because after both states are done- you are left staring at the mess youve made and thinking... just what have I done.

    And that experience is heart breaking
    I hope you find the right meds that work for you and don't leave you feeling like you've made a mess of things. A lot of people function completely normally once their psychiatrist finds the right combination, so don't give up hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Look, the fact is that legitimate spiritual experience, and healthy personal development, are being construed as being "mentally ill" because they do not fit the worldview of the people who are creating the diagnoses.

    If you do not see this, you either haven't looked, or you are blind.
    I'm unsure what you mean by legitimate spiritual experience, and I don't think healthy personal development has ever been misconstrued as mental illness.

  6. #26
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    Its sad to me that lots of members who would have had something to say in this thread are gone.

    Like @miss fortune, @Hard, @Hummingbird Spirit, @Forelsket, and several others. Just a sad observation Im making.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Its sad to me that lots of members who would have had something to say in this thread are gone.

    Like miss fortune, hard, crystal winter dreams, norrsken, and several others. Just a sad observation Im making.
    Can you invite them back to comment?

  8. #28
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drapeaux View Post
    I'm unsure what you mean by legitimate spiritual experience, and I don't think healthy personal development has ever been misconstrued as mental illness.
    I'm unsure why you'd be unsure about it, and yes it has. The fact is that when a person is operating at exceptionally high levels of functioning, they often present themselves in ways which are "unusual", and mental health diagnosis is heavily based on adhering to ideals of normalcy.

    Consider this. Carl Jung was a schizophrenic, and I think it's reasonable to say that much of his insight came as a result of his psychosis. If he was put on "therapeutic" doses of anti-psychotics for life instead of being able to go through psychosis, do you think he would have been able to develop his ideas to any where near the level that he did?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drapeaux View Post
    Can you invite them back to comment?
    I can mention them but most have left the forum and I dont think plan on coming back.

    But Ill mention them for you and see what happens
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I'm unsure why you'd be unsure about it, and yes it has. The fact is that when a person is operating at exceptionally high levels of functioning, they often present themselves in ways which are "unusual", and mental health diagnosis is heavily based on adhering to ideals of normalcy.

    Consider this. Carl Jung was a schizophrenic, and I think it's reasonable to say that much of his insight came as a result of his psychosis. If he was put on "therapeutic" doses of anti-psychotics for life instead of being able to go through psychosis, do you think he would have been able to develop his ideas to any where near the level that he did?
    Most schizophrenic people are not able to engender the type of creative and philosophical work Jung did. Their lives are very difficult, they suffer immensely from their condition, and they would be much better able to contribute to society with their gifts and talents if they were being treated. Mental illness itself isn't what made Jung a genius. He was a genius despite his mental illness. And yes, he probably would've benefited from antipsychotics. They likely would've made him even more productive, not less.
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