"Recovering" from Mental Illness

[Drapeaux]

Carl Jung and the Holy Grail of the Unconscious - The New York Times



Q.E.D.

Yes, I'm aware he self-reported that. A lot of people self-report a lot of dubious things. Look, I don't know if we're going to see eye to eye on this. I appreciate your input thus far, but I think this thread may be better suited to more strict discussion of the actual topic as outlined in the OP.

 

[Pionart]

I'm aware of the potential side effects. And you can believe that I guess, just as you believe in spiritual emergency, but belief does not make truth.

You say "potential" as if those are things that may happen in some minority of cases but generally don't, but I'm pretty sure side-effects of that nature are pretty much a given.

Your statement on belief is kinda meaningless because it goes both ways. What you're stating is your belief, what I'm stating is my belief. Psychiatry represents one set of beliefs, anti-psychiatry represents a set of beliefs in opposition to that.

It's all belief, how can it be anything else? There is a truth to the matter, and it is my belief that the psychiatric viewpoint on this matter is very, very far removed from the truth.

 

[Luminous]

Yes, I'm aware he self-reported that. A lot of people self-report a lot of dubious things. Look, I don't know if we're going to see eye to eye on this. I appreciate your input thus far, but I think this thread may be better suited to more strict discussion of the actual topic as outlined in the OP.

You can request that a mod split all the derailment into a new thread. [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] ?

 

[Pionart]

Regarding the topic at hand...

If I'm really a schizoaffective who goes through regular episodes of psychosis, I don't even want to "recover". I want the psychosis to come on even more strongly.

Regarding particular troubling issues that a person may be dealing with, it is a given that in a great many cases, the issues are a temporary stage of life and can be overcome.

There are likely some ingrained traits of people that give them issues that are lifelong, and these could only be managed.


So it depends on what kind of psychological condition we are referring to as to whether recovery is possible or even desirable.

 

[Luminous]

Do you think it's possible to recover from mental illness? I sometimes hear people say they've recovered, and it strikes me as an interesting choice of words, as usually the consensus medically tends to be that people manage mental illness with things like therapy and medication.

Speaking purely in terms of my personal experience, I think I could say that I've basically "recovered" from an eating disorder. However, I am only managing the underlying problem. I am "recovering" from a traumatic experience in my past which triggered what was diagnosed as OCD (and possibly PTSD). I am managing the tendency toward OCD behavior. So for myself, I think I could say that I'm recovering from what I see as being outward problems caused by an inward problem that I can only manage. Hope that makes some sense.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

There are benefits for treatment for some people. But I have had too many doctors admit to me it is all guesswork.

Mental illness is real. Schizophrenia is real. Bipolar is real. Depression is real. Etc.

Ultimately, though, our world forces some of the problems on people, because it is very flawed.

Historically, some people would go through a period of psychosis or mania or depression or such and "recover" after a time. They did so because they learned to adapt to themselves and integrate.

My sister is bipolar and she has been on meds for a dozen years. Before that, she was pretty capable and successful in her life. 7 or so years ago, she started talk therapy and she believes that has helped her far more than the meds (but she stil takes meds).

Life can be extremely stressful. It can be sorrowful. We can get melancholy. We get manic. Our hormones change. Our diet disrupts us. We need to find a way to make life work, for ourselves and to minimize the harm we cause others.

We need patience for ourselves and others, instead of thinking about instant cures and solutions.

It might be better if we stopped trying to avoid pain and only have happiness. Life has pain and suffering. It isn't always "bad", as it can help us. And seeking constant happiness often becomes hedonistic and ultimately unhappy.

 

[rav3n]

All pulled straight out of my ass but here's my hypothesis.

The majority of personality disorders and other mental health illnesses have to do with gut bacteria in concert with genetics. If you consider behavioral genes, they require environmental triggers to manifest so specific cocktails of gut bacteria trigger specific combinations of behaviors. In addition, genetics can provide hostile or friendly environments for specific cocktails of gut bacteria so the problem circles in an echo chamber of dysfunction. In order to break out of this echo chamber, something needs to shake up the gut bacteria cocktail and that something must be maintained, in order block genes from creating more welcoming environments for toxic gut bacteria environments.

 

[prplchknz]

I've been psychotic and it sucks i have really bad delusions and so paranoid i can't leave my house and I'm on a constant state of panic. Yet i don't have the insight to know I'm psychotic until after I get put back on treatment. So yes for schizoaffective sucks. And I become less productive. Meds actually make it so I can be productive. I wish it was just spiritual sickness or a quirk but it's not it effects my whole life. I've been dealing with it for years and just in the last year have I been able to accept I'm sick.

 

[Pionart]

I've been psychotic and it sucks i have really bad delusions and so paranoid i can't leave my house and I'm on a constant state of panic. Yet i don't have the insight to know I'm psychotic until after I get put back on treatment. So yes for schizoaffective sucks. And I become less productive. Meds actually make it so I can be productive. I wish it was just spiritual sickness or a quirk but it's not it effects my whole life. I've been dealing with it for years and just in the last year have I been able to accept I'm sick.

So it can be inferred from this that there are cases where anti-psychotics are warranted.

My case contrasts with this.

I don't even know if it's really psychosis, but...

When I'm psychotic:
- there are some days when I don't want to leave the house, but overall I'm significantly more likely to leave the house
- I often tell people that I'm psychotic, so they can know why I'm behaving differently than they're used to
- I can work or study at the same capacity as usual, however I may become too interested in something else to bother doing it
- meds make it very difficult for me to function if the dose is too high, but at the dose I'm currently on (supposedly low compared to other people) I can function at ordinary levels
- I've gone from believing I was sick early on, to believing it's a gift and that the people treating me are full of it
- ultimately I long for the vitality I experience when I'm psychotic

 

[prplchknz]

I thought this was an interesting thread.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

I'm unsure why you'd be unsure about it, and yes it has. The fact is that when a person is operating at exceptionally high levels of functioning, they often present themselves in ways which are "unusual", and mental health diagnosis is heavily based on adhering to ideals of normalcy.

Consider this. Carl Jung was a schizophrenic, and I think it's reasonable to say that much of his insight came as a result of his psychosis. If he was put on "therapeutic" doses of anti-psychotics for life instead of being able to go through psychosis, do you think he would have been able to develop his ideas to any where near the level that he did?

Many use that fact to discredit him, but well I dont think psychosis = always wrong.

 

[Yuurei]

Many use that fact to discredit him, but well I dont think psychosis = always wrong.

This is something I’ve realized in the past several years.

I think that things like neursis and psychosis are really just learned, rational behavior in response to negative and irrational stimuli.

I, someone with a healthy ego, and emotionally stability have noticed several of these behaviors in myself. I think that just about all people have at least one. Even growing up with the “ perfect” family; no abuse, a lot of support and a strong support system could manifest in a dangerously positive mindset as learning some sceptasicm is integral to survival.

 

[Frosty]

Psychosis comes to me and its nearly impossible to control at the level that it does and is basically always terrifying.

I spent about an hour curled up in the fetal position in the library singing to myslef so that the voices would go away. Spent another hour in my car repeating again and again that “I was going to go get the mail” in several different voices because it was the only way I could calm myself.

In my opinion. Psychosis isnt some just quirky thing that makes someone oh so special. It is horrible and debilitating and just about one of the worst things a person can psychologically go through.

Maybe at the end of it you can learn some life lessons. I think psychosis has personally made me more empathetic in general to peoples issues (not always- but more than before it)

But studies have shown that psychosis causes progressive damage to people over time.

As data mount confirming the neurodegenerative effects of psychotic episodes in schizophrenia, one expert urges psychiatrists to think of psychosis as a “brain attack” which, like heart attacks, must be prevented from recurring.

“Schizophrenia doesn’t have to be progressive neurodegenerative unless patients relapse again and again, but that happens all the time because we give our patients pills they don’t take as prescribed. There are many reasons for poor adherence,” Henry A. Nasrallah, MD, said at the meeting held by Global Academy for Medical Education.

The field still is clarifying the neurodevelopmental aspects of schizophrenia, including genetic and in utero adverse events that disrupt brain development, as well as the appropriate types and timing of intervention in the prodromal phase. However, Dr. Nasrallah explained, science already has demonstrated how the neurotoxic effects of psychosis in the brain of a person with schizophrenia lead to brain tissue degradation with every psychotic episode. The result is a progressive decline in social and vocational functioning.

Psychosis is associated with activation of microglia, which are monocytic cells that cross the blood-brain barrier during fetal life, settling in the brain and ultimately comprising 10%-15% of all brain cells. Once activated, they trigger an immune response, leading to neuroinflammation and oxidative stress (free radicals). However, Dr. Nasrallah said, rather than protect the brain, these processes destroy gray and white matter – particularly in the cortical region – degrading the brain and leaving it more compromised, especially if another episode of psychosis occurs.

Psychosis is not some sort of quirky fad that people can go through to become more special. It destroys lives. So many people who are in hospitals or who are homeless have psychotic disorders- many of them untreated. It isnt something you can choose- something you can take on and off when it suits... its pervasive and debilitating and just- awful.

Im kinda getting sick of people romanticizing mental illness tbh. No one romanticizes cancer. Both things destroy lives. Not every life- but overall- I bet if you polled 100 people with schizophrenia and 100 people of the general population- I would bet that the general populations ratings on how well they function and enjoy their lives would be leaps and bounds higher than the mental illness populations ratings.

 

[prplchknz]

This is something I’ve realized in the past several years.

I think that things like neursis and psychosis are really just learned, rational behavior in response to negative and irrational stimuli.

I, someone with a healthy ego, and emotionally stability have noticed several of these behaviors in myself. I think that just about all people have at least one. Even growing up with the “ perfect” family; no abuse, a lot of support and a strong support system could manifest in a dangerously positive mindset as learning some sceptasicm is integral to survival.

No it's not that is not how psychosis works. Sure it can cause the Gene's to he activated. Or caused by drugs though drug psychosis is temporary usually.

 

[Yuurei]

No it's not that is not how psychosis works. Sure it can cause the Gene's to he activated. Or caused by drugs though drug psychosis is temporary usually.

I’m not one to care about schematics. It’s probably more applicable to the term “ neurosis”.

I was responding more to the specific post I quoted and not the general topic.

 

[Frosty]

I’m not one to care about schematics. It’s probably more applicable to the term “ neurosis”.

Its not an issue with semantics. Psychosis isnt what you are describing. Its entirely different and conflating the two issues as something that “are just learned behavior” is really bad when it comes to discrediting people who suffer from these things at a level is beyond their control.

This whole thread has turned absolutely disgusting. I honestly think one year or so ago this would have gone completely differently. But this is the population of people who have stayed on this site. The ones who dont have any emotional issues that they are open about (not prticularly talking about you here) but do have ones that they are so defensive over that they need to come to threads where people are talking about serious and painful things and crap on them to prove their emotional superioriry.

“Yeah those people with those mental illnesses just dont know how good they have it. If they could just learn how to choose not to be mentally ill- and learn how to take the good with the bad. Well then theyd be fine! Why cant they just cure themselves”

Ive seen a real increase of people with that sort of attitude lately and its just depressing.

Anyways. First part of rant applied to you. Rest of it- was just my perspective on where this site has gone as of late. Away from compassion and understanding others and more towards proving superiority and pushing images.

 

[Yuurei]

Its not an issue with semantics. Psychosis isnt what you are describing. Its entirely different and conflating the two issues as something that “are just learned behavior” is really bad when it comes to discrediting people who suffer from these things at a level is beyond their control.

This whole thread has turned absolutely disgusting. I honestly think one year or so ago this would have gone completely differently. But this is the population of people who have stayed on this site. The ones who dont have any emotional issues that they are open about (not prticularly talking about you here) but do have ones that they are so defensive over that they need to come to threads where people are talking about serious and painful things and crap on them to prove their emotional superioriry.

“Yeah those people with those mental illnesses just dont know how good they have it. If they could just learn how to choose not to be mentally ill- and learn how to take the good with the bad. Well then theyd be fine! Why cant they just cure themselves”

Ive seen a real increase of people with that sort of attitude lately and its just depressing.

Anyways. First part of rant applied to you. Rest of it- was just my perspective on where this site has gone as of late. Away from compassion and understanding others and more towards proving superiority and pushing images.

Well, like I said I was responding to what I quoted; which to me was arguing against the idea that all forms of “irrational behavior” (not speific to “psychosis”) are wrong. I’m not going to argue that point any further.

All I know about psychosis is that my Father defintly suffers from many. A lot of it probably has to do with decades of drug use but I think they have merely lowered his inhabitiobs and brought to the serface what was always there.

As for treatment; I don’t know. He refuses any help insisting that that it’s everyone elses problem a d we are jus5 picking on him.

I only know what I have personally experienced and I think that it is probably similar to what my Grandmother has said about my own physical condition and medication.
“It isn’t a s” treatment” or a cure.” It probably sounds like there should be something else there but there isn’t. Niether her nor I know how to dscribe it in one word, but I imagine it’s a similar concept.
Medication may “ treat” the symptoms and make it easier to function but it doesn’t treat or cure the underlying issue.
It’s kind of a band-aid, not in the “ it’s just a band-aid it isn’t helping you, go outside.” Kind of way.
More like a “ Oh God I’ve been stabbed!” “I’m sorry, all we have are band-aids.” sort of way. It staves off infection but unless you get some stitches it’s never going to heal, but you do what you have to get by.

Many "mental illnesses" are then a balanced reaction to circumstance.

This is just another example of social control.

"You're mentally ill."
"No, I'm reacting to my circumstances."
"Your reaction is not appropriate."
"Why not?"
"Because that is what we have decided."

I’ve exoerienced this myself. In the lowest part of my life I was given anti-depressants to “ fix” my depression. I refused to take thm because there was nothing medically wrong with me. I was living in a depressing situation and would feel better as soon as my life improved.

It shouldn’t need to be said but apparently it does, this is not at all the same thing as a “ psychosis” which can’t be “ cured with the same method, if at all.

 

[Luminous]

This whole thread has turned absolutely disgusting.

It would be great if the derailment was split off or moved to off topic posts.

 

[Coriolis]

It would be great if the derailment was split off or moved to off topic posts.

What part of the thread do you consider a derail? I haven't seen anything that looks off-topic, but then the topic is rather broad, and not one I am overly familiar with. We can always make additional threads for more specific sub-topics.

 

[Pionart]

[MENTION=29687]Frosty[/MENTION]

I get that psychosis has been distressing for you. I won't post the sort of things to your blog that I had been because maybe I was just projecting and it's not right for you.

I get that many people in fact experience psychosis as something distressing, and find the treatments to be helpful. But there is a subset of the population of people who experience psychosis who experience it as something often positive that is a source of growth, and I would say "enlightenment".

For example, as I mentioned in this thread, Carl Jung experienced a lot of psychosis and claims that that was where a lot of his ideas came from. If he had been treated with anti-psychotics it's likely that he wouldn't have been able to create what he did.

--

So there are two main views I can think of as to what is going on here:

Perhaps psychosis is experienced by different people or at different times as sometimes positive and sometimes negative. This is like how a recreational drug might result in a good trip or a bad trip.

Or maybe psychosis is an umbrella term for a variety of separate conditions, some of which are good and some of which are bad. This is like different drugs being sold under the same name, with some drugs resulting in good trips, some as bad trips.

For myself, sometimes it's good and sometimes bad, but the overall progression is for things to get better and the overall process is something I would deem to be good. So when I see someone present with the same sort of experiences I think to myself "hey, this is like what I went through, so my wisdom here could help this person turn their experiences into positivity and growth". Though maybe that's not always the case.

--

The main idea I've been trying to get across with this thread is that in many instances, a positive process is being deemed negative by psychiatrists etc. and they wield the legal authority to force people into treatment regimes that the person would not submit to voluntarily. There is not a process of proving that person needs the treatment that is applied to them, and you can find many articles and studies which assert that they in fact do not. But because they have the power they are free to implement their agendas.

As much as I've heard that psychosis causes brain damage, I've also heard that anti-psychotics cause brain damage. So fighting brain-damage with more brain-damage hardly seems to make sense. If it can be shown to me that schizophrenics have less neuro-degeneration when on anti-psychotics than when off them, then I will take that into account when forming my views.

--

Research Suggests Brain Abnormalities in ‘Schizophrenia’ Result From Antipsychotics