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Admitting your faults

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
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I'm not going to ask anyone to list all their known faults like this is some virtual confession or something. What I want to know is how difficult you find admitting your faults to yourself. What are your reactions to the person/people that tells you about yourself? Do you deny? Blame? Begin criticizing the other person to take the heat of yourself?

This isn't about blaming what's wrong with you on your nearest type opposite or all the SJs in your life, nor is this to devolve into a pity party about how horrible a person you are.

What proactive and constructive things do you to change valid criticisms about your ways? Have successful have you been at changing?
 

Totenkindly

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I'm not going to ask anyone to list all their known faults like this is some virtual confession or something.

Oh, but dishing up the dirt is what's so much FUN about threads like this!!! [pout]

What I want to know is how difficult you find admitting your faults to yourself. What are your reactions to the person/people that tells you about yourself? Do you deny? Blame? Begin criticizing the other person to take the heat of yourself?

I would like to think I am better at this than I used to be. I always tended to be very self-critical, so usually a complaint came to me as "old news" and thus wasn't threatening enough to have to rejected; I probably was more annoying in that I would just get depressed with the news, if anything.

But in a few areas I had more trouble, where I felt I always had to be intelligent, and creative, and understanding. Any criticism in those areas, I tended to take more personally and become argumentative.

Getting older, for me, was helpful. After dealing with things like this long enough, the mental attitude seems to shift and it's no longer as important to defend one's ego, because the ego (in the good sense) has developed and is more stable and can take criticism without feeling mortally wounded by it.

What proactive and constructive things do you to change valid criticisms about your ways? Have successful have you been at changing?

Change is not easy, and actually is impossible unless you want to change (or are under a LOT of pressure to change -- where not transforming is simply not worth the price of refusal any longer).

Listen to the criticism. Empathize with the other person, evaluate it through their eyes; look at yourself from the outside. Is my behavior ambiguous? Did they misread my intent? Or are those flaws really there? Their own complicity is irrelevant; what matters right now is examining myself and checking my own motivations and/or behavior. There is no need to "protect" myself; either they are wrong and I'm okay, or they're right and changing is GOOD for me and makes me stronger. (Either way, I "win" -- so why feel threatened?)

Then it becomes a matter of remaining aware of things, understanding my motives, and monitoring myself, and actively choosing to change my behavior. Perhaps I need to develop a plan of some sort.

I've changed in some very notable ways... but often I needed time and patience with myself. It's easy to change outward behavior temporarily, but not as easy to change internal feelings and motivations; and if the internal motivations do not change, maintaining the outer change gets harder and harder. The inward change, where the desires and desperations need to change, is the hardest and takes time and experience.
 

Natrushka

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I thought about this today, mainly because I had to deal with it today. Stress is a killer for me and right now I'm stressed at work with a nasty deadline that's been looming for 6 or 7 weeks. Between that stress, having my in-laws over yesterday and skipping a dose of meds / hormones, I was a basket case last night - panic attack time.

I should have known it was coming; I've known deep down that I've been hanging on by a thread for a few days now. I do the denial thing. Pretend it's OK so no one gets worried or upset and hope it will be OK.

I keep it in around my husband (Ironically, SJ) because I think know he doesn't understand half the time what's wrong. I swear he thinks I'm just being difficult on purpose. So I feel a tad guilty about not letting him know how I'm feeling - especially when he'll tell me how he's feeling before he tells himself. So we discussed that today as well.

I'm also insensitive a lot of the time - his exact words to me yesterday. This is something we've discussed at length. I'm not a fan of his immediate family, at least not on some days and I'm not really good with groups of people to beging with. So I try harder with them, because I know he's right, I can be incredibly insensitive, and I know it matters to him that I'm not with his sister and BIL. Of course he'd like me to be sensitive and caring to the mailman, hence the discussion and laying down of just who gets the extra special effort.

MB is something that's of interest to me because I need to know how other people think and why they do what they do. I've explained that to him as well; he's said to me recently "Oh you're just using that to rationalize bad behaviour" which kind of shocked me. I'm using to better understand why we don't see eye to eye on things and where problems errupt so I can not get upset with him and so I can modify my behaviour so it doesn't make him so crazy.

This last part has worked (the discussion about the increased interest in MB). If we escalate from discussion, to disagreement, to arguement we can say "wait a second - time out - this is what I mean".

Logic gets us through most of it.
 

rivercrow

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This is part of any 12-step program. It's a difficult process. On the one hand, we want to shirk responsibility for faults (denial). On the other hand, we want to blame ourselves for all faults (pity party). Neither of these are accurate or honest. Or helpful.

Recognizing my fallibility, cultivating humility, and learning to forgive myself have been essential. Establishing boundaries is important--both for myself and for others.

If I am managing stress effectively, I can objectively weight people's criticism of me, usually pretty quickly.
 

Xander

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As I have absolutely no faults at all I have no idea what your on about.....
:devil:


I tend to find I work to a pattern of denial, self analysis and correction. See I'm used to people trying to muscle me in terms of thinking and such. This has lead me to have quite a tough exterior, especially in terms of being stubborn and such, however most things that people say will get mulled around for a while behind the exterior walls and it is there where I check the statement for validity etc. If I find it to be valid then you can bet I'll make changes to incorporate this new information. The main failing of this system is of course I manage to annoy people whilst they deal with the outer wall, they never get to see any impact upon me, I never explain this and then a couple of weeks later I'll start quoting it back to them (by that point it's usually part of me so the irony is often lost on me).
 

Totenkindly

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I tend to find I work to a pattern of denial, self analysis and correction. See I'm used to people trying to muscle me in terms of thinking and such. This has lead me to have quite a tough exterior, especially in terms of being stubborn and such, however most things that people say will get mulled around for a while behind the exterior walls and it is there where I check the statement for validity etc. If I find it to be valid then you can bet I'll make changes to incorporate this new information...

Note to Self: When Xander seems unresponsive, keep hitting him harder. :devil:
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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What are your reactions to the person/people that tells you about yourself? Do you deny? Blame? Begin criticizing the other person to take the heat of yourself?
The degree to which I trust the person plays a role. If the person isn't to be trusted it adds another layer of doubt as to their motivation. I 'try' to be very honest with myself about my failings. I guess the only thing that's hard for me is if someone else spots a failing I missed. That feels like a failure on my part. It can make me step back to analyze if i missed any of my other faults. For some reason it's a big deal to me to be aware of every single fault of my own. The downside is that it can be depressing if you don't also pay attention to your strengths.

Impersonal, constructive criticism from someone I respect and trust is what i live for. That is welcome. It gives me courage to develop my potential.
 

Xander

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Note to Self: When Xander seems unresponsive, keep hitting him harder. :devil:
Hmm Family philosophy
"I may not win but I'll be damned if I'm gonna lose"

Try waiting a little bit then hitting again. Repeat process and watch the answers change. Some find it fun. Most lack the constitution :smile:
 

Totenkindly

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I guess the only thing that's hard for me is if someone else spots a failing I missed. That feels like a failure on my part. It can make me step back to analyze if i missed any of my other faults. For some reason it's a big deal to me to be aware of every single fault of my own.

Yes... for me, I think it has something to do with integrity and having my intentions understood/known accurately. (There might be something negative in there as well -- hating the embarrassment of being fallible without realizing it, or hurting someone without realizing it. I simply want to be "perfect" I suppose, as much as possible... And it also conveniently diffuses criticism from others if I can criticize myself first. Uggh, what a gray jumbled mess of intentions...)
 

proteanmix

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Change is not easy, and actually is impossible unless you want to change (or are under a LOT of pressure to change -- where not transforming is simply not worth the price of refusal any longer).

....

I've changed in some very notable ways... but often I needed time and patience with myself. It's easy to change outward behavior temporarily, but not as easy to change internal feelings and motivations; and if the internal motivations do not change, maintaining the outer change gets harder and harder. The inward change, where the desires and desperations need to change, is the hardest and takes time and experience.

If it's impossible unless you want to change, do you resent the other person for criticizing you? As if the constant reminder indicates your failure to do anything about it. Knowing you need to change is meaningless to the other person unless you manifest some changes. It's not enough to be your own worst critic, it actually makes the situation a bit sorrier because you know you have a problem and do nothing to fix it.

It seems to me that people say they want honest criticism, but when they get it they don't accept it. They find a way to wiggle out of what they know their problems are, or say someone caused them to be the way they are, not realizing that everything is cause and effect. You can't just isolate behavior and assign blame.

I remember I was when I was a teenager and I went with my parents to the grocery store. They got into an argument in the car before entering the store. When we got into the grocery store, my father asked my mother a question and she snapped at him and walked away. I was pushing the basket and my father turned to another man and said, "see how she treats me, all I did was ask her a simple question." The man nodded his agreement and started talking about his wife, blah blah blah.

I always think about this when people say they want to change or don't want to admit something's their fault. It's so easy to walk into a situation, see one thing and say well you're the cause of this. You have no knowledge of preceding events, why the person has become the way they are. It's like all this stuff gets swirled and entangled together, people say you did this and they're right, but you turn right back around and say, well you did this which is why I did what I did. When will this foolishness stop? When is someone going to be mature and say, you know, I can only be responsible for what I did.

I'd think that if you really want to change, you'd start showing change, especially if you care for the other person. I'm not saying a complete 180 is less than 24 hrs, just some results of your desire to change, and acknowledgment of your faults would prompt some things to happen faster than others.
 

Totenkindly

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If it's impossible unless you want to change, do you resent the other person for criticizing you? As if the constant reminder indicates your failure to do anything about it. Knowing you need to change is meaningless to the other person unless you manifest some changes. It's not enough to be your own worst critic, it actually makes the situation a bit sorrier because you know you have a problem and do nothing to fix it.

It can be, definitely. Some people are much more comfortable with themselves, or have a strong ego that needs to be assertively challenged before it will reconsider its own viewpoint.

Usually for me personally, I *was* trying to fix the flaw and pushing myself far too hard to make an overnight change, when more time was required. So when someone else pointed it out, it used to make me feel more inadequate and embarrassed... especially if they were treating me cynically.

And yes, then when I get in situations where I find myself apathetic to fixing the item in question, then I get cynical about myself. (Fun cycle. :) )

It seems to me that people say they want honest criticism, but when they get it they don't accept it. They find a way to wiggle out of what they know their problems are, or say someone caused them to be the way they are, not realizing that everything is cause and effect. You can't just isolate behavior and assign blame.

I think we all do this to some degree -- it is a human temptation. And I don't even think it's an inherently bad thing, it's simply the "give and take" between the ego and the externalized world. To do ANYTHING in life, we have to develop a secure strong ego that believes in what it's doing; and naturally, the ego pushes back when challenged. A healthy ego is able to believe productively in itself and have ambitions, but be able to listen and integrate constructive criticism without outright rejecting it. What you describe is sort of the "ego gone wild" or wandering off-track.

And when the ego feels undeveloped or weak, you end up more where I was at, where the ego is unduly impacted by external criticism and constantly hamstrings itself in trying to comply, never totally trusting its own values and strength.

I remember I was when I was a teenager and I went with my parents to the grocery store. They got into an argument in the car before entering the store. When we got into the grocery store, my father asked my mother a question and she snapped at him and walked away. I was pushing the basket and my father turned to another man and said, "see how she treats me, all I did was ask her a simple question." The man nodded his agreement and started talking about his wife, blah blah blah.

:sick: It just makes me ill when I see that sort of thing happen around me.

I always think about this when people say they want to change or don't want to admit something's their fault. It's so easy to walk into a situation, see one thing and say well you're the cause of this. You have no knowledge of preceding events, why the person has become the way they are. It's like all this stuff gets swirled and entangled together, people say you did this and they're right, but you turn right back around and say, well you did this which is why I did what I did. When will this foolishness stop? When is someone going to be mature and say, you know, I can only be responsible for what I did.

Well, I am a parent of three children... so... *groan* ... yes, this is the typical lecture that we give when we get the daily arguments of "But he said....!" and "But she did....!" It's a long process. And some people weren't forced to learn to do this as children, so now they have to learn it as adults... when they're no longer in submission to higher authority and HAVE to learn it.

I'd think that if you really want to change, you'd start showing change, especially if you care for the other person. I'm not saying a complete 180 is less than 24 hrs, just some results of your desire to change, and acknowledgment of your faults would prompt some things to happen faster than others.

True. I agree with both. One needs to have patience, because the process of change is long; one also needs to accept that "signs of good faith" are very helpful in terms of helping one change AND signaling other people that the change is in progress.

(It reminds me a little of the Christian "Faith vs Deeds" debate.)

Anyway, if I was in a situation like this, I would simply keep communicating daily so that I knew what the other person was thinking and committed to, and they would understand how I was perceiving things.
 

cafe

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It seems to me that people say they want honest criticism, but when they get it they don't accept it.
This is something you will never hear me say unless it's about a writing project or other creative endeavor and even then, I don't always like it. I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.
 

rivercrow

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I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.

This is why I like IxxJs. :hug:
 

proteanmix

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This is something you will never hear me say unless it's about a writing project or other creative endeavor and even then, I don't always like it. I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.

Thanks for the honest answer, Cafe. :)

People, (regardless of temperament) don't want to hear the truth about themselves. I don't think some mind if they're criticized about work or play, but when it comes down to interpersonal relationships, it is not wanted. Most people would rather continue as they are and not be asked to make any significant changes to themselves. I include myself in this lot.
 

rivercrow

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Truth is subjective. You have to weigh the "what's in it for them" factor as well.

My best defense for this is to know myself as well as I can and to be open to considering that I don't have the whole view. Which I don't, since I'm "in here" and you're "out there." Trust me, "in here" is a lot more fun. :smoke:
 

niffer

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It's easy for me to admit my faults to others, but a little harder for me to mull them over on my own.

Most of them are flakey SP-like accountability problems. They're little things, but the fact that I piss people off makes my inner three-year-old want to give itself a time out.
 

Economica

Dhampyr
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I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.

Seconded (and my compliments on your honesty :worthy:). I'm trying to get better though. I'd like to be able to deal with all criticism gracefully and to actually absorb the important stuff.

Any INXJs out there who have overcome this problem want to recount how they did it?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Any INXJs out there who have overcome this problem want to recount how they did it?
So I read this and think:
1. Am I completely unaware of my inability to accept criticism?
2. Am I an IxxJ?

I majored in music. ;) This involves daily one on one criticism for 16 years of my life. My primary mentor of 12 years was the closest thing i had to a father figure and our interaction was based solely on his critique of what i did. He wasn't gentle either, but he believed in my potential. A couple of times it pushed me to the point of tears, but i still love him for it. Couple of anecdotes:

1. At one lesson with my very first composition teacher I brought in a fragment that I thought had a Native American feel to it. At the time I was very fond of that music. It was in the low register on the black keys. He literally cringed when he heard it and said no, that won't do. I felt like he hated it. I felt really dumb and disappointed that I could think something was special when it was actually crap. My stomach was tight as i walked to the bus stop, wondering if I really was a composer at all. I knew to be more careful about what I brought him next time. I did find the courage to try again, and that was a good feeling.

2. One time my long term mentor (second professor) described my new flute quartet movement of having a similar quality to flat beer. My reaction? :sad: then i wondered if he understood how completely irrelevant flat beer is to me. I wondered if I had the ability to give it focus and meaning.

3. Another time i brought in a poem i had written about the experience of my father which implied pain. I was to use it as the text for a new piece. He described to me why the poem was artistically a piece of crap. It was true, but I cried because I had wanted him to understand me and i had thought the poem was decent. At first i attempted to justify it in my mind, but alas it was crap and I then knew it. He then told me I would be better off collaborating with a poet of a similar level as me as a composer. I later thought about how he must have felt hurting my feelings, so the next lesson I made certain to mention how much I valued his input into helping me produce better work.

4. I attended a master class with a composer from Julliard. There were about 10 of us. He said that we were to all listen to each work and describe "what" we heard without making any value judgments. He said very often composers hear more in their heads than they put down into the music. When it came my turn i presented my best work so far. The third movement was described as having harmonies that sounded like rather expected functional tonality with just a couple of notes thrown off. It wasn't a fresh or interesting sound. I heard it very differently. The last movement had an enormous crashing climax in which the strings in side the piano were strummed violently along with chord clusters on the keys. He pointed out it was completely unexpected and seeming irrelevant to the context of the piece. These were not subtle errors artistically. My face was beat red as I 'felt' humiliated but also realized that if someone hadn't told me, there I would be stuck in ignorance in my expression. I trusted his criticism, but felt the other students were enjoying it in a way that really hurt me. At my next lesson with my professor, he asked me my reaction to the master class. He said many students were dissappointed the guest composer was not more excited about their music. It never occurred to me for him to be excited. For crying out loud he's from Juilliard and his status quo is highly gifted students. I wished I could study with him for a time because of his fresh perspective and honesty with me. I feel trapped inside myself, as though I'm bigger inside, but with this dim interface to reality. I feel like i'm in a holding cell. When someone appears to step forward to help free me, I may eagerly approach the bars. They may sternly tell me to step back so they can work. It may hurt my feelings, but the larger context is my greatest hope. I'm so sick of feeling trapped. Anyone willing to help free me earns my deepest love and gratitude.

There are probably thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of other anecdotes that are now lost to time, but carved out part of me.
 

Economica

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So I read this and think:
1. Am I completely unaware of my inability to accept criticism?
2. Am I an IxxJ?

I didn't mean to imply that all INXJs have this problem. I'd just like to hear from INXJs who have had this problem and have overcome it.
 

Shimpei

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Criticism used to be like a stabbing through my heart. I used to be very sensitive and I used to feel utter shame and inadequacy. I even cried a lot.
Later I switched to passive aggressiveness when I was criticized.
Now, I'm more aware of my faults myself so I don't feel hurt when I'm criticized. I think the keys are awareness and openness to others (getting rid of self-righteousness), in order to be more cooperative when it comes to valid criticism.
 
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