Why do people commit mass murder?

[Lark]

People commit mass murder under a totalitarian belief system like national socialism, international communism, or. Islam.

Yesterday an Islamist committed mass murder in the centre of Melbourne, Australia.

Due the lack of equivalence in your example makes you and your point look totally foolish. I know you didnt intend to but that gave me a laugh.

Its a shame about the original incidents but I'm not laughing at that but your poor argument.

 

[Mole]

Actually the question is asking, why to people in America commit mass murder. And the facts are that people outside America commit mass murder for different reasons than those in the USA. But the narcissists are only interested in mass murder in their own country.

 

[Lark]

Actually the question is asking, why to people in America commit mass murder. And the facts are that people outside America commit mass murder for different reasons than those in the USA. But the narcissists are only interested in mass murder in their own country.

Maybe its because I'm not a narcissist but I'm interested in why it happens anywhere and not just the USA, I dont think that Highlander is a narcissist either.

I'm not sure why you would post that.

 

[Mole]

Maybe its because I'm not a narcissist but I'm interested in why it happens anywhere and not just the USA, I dont think that Highlander is a narcissist either. I'm not sure why you would post that.

It's because Americans shoot 300 of each other every day of the year,. Other countries have murder for other reasons. But Americans tend to be only interested in themselves.

 

[Lark]

It's because Americans shoot 300 of each other every day of the year,. Other countries have murder for other reasons. But Americans tend to be only interested in themselves.

That's not been my experience, on what do you base that?

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Maybe it’s a symptom of population growth

 

[Lark]

Maybe it’s a symptom of population growth

why do you say that?

the birth rate is falling

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

why do you say that?

the birth rate is falling

I don't know, less problematic than blaming it on more controversial factors, I guess.

 

[ducks]

I don't know. But personally speaking, I've had dark thoughts like that, but always thought it wouldn't do much good to do something like that. Plus it's kind of hard to hate a stranger that you've never met. Going after particular people though for very specific reasons, such as taking out certain politicians and such...that would be interesting, but again, it probably wouldn't do any good in the long run. Somebody would just replace them.

You'd need to wipe out the entire system, the entire structure for society. Turn everything into chaos that nobody has a large upper hand in with money or power. But it would have to be the entire human civilization, not just one country or it's a waste. So there is always global nuclear war...that could level everything out and allow humanity to kind of try and start things over. Even if we just end up with the same narcissistic world where money and power reigns supreme and every person is just a cog in the modern day political framework, subservient to the current and lawful mob rule of the federal and state governments, we'd learn a bit more about the failings of the human race at the very least.

On the other other hand, we could start promoting and moving towards a society that doesn't turn basic needs into a commodity. We could stop letting the rich extort the poor for more money that the poor didn't have to begin with through loans to buy things the poor need like places to live and cars to go to work. Using loans to buy things you need, but can't afford makes zero sense as a society; loans are supposed to be used for investments, not the school bully that takes everyone's lunch money every day. We could stop promoting the idea that you need to sacrifice health and fun and all your time to make enough money to pay all your bills or save some money and even stop promoting the idea that work or your value as a human being should be all about cash flow and profits and bank account numbers, rather than quality of life or what good your work or service really brings to the people. We could stop letting corporations dictate how we buy, use, and own things by making it harder and harder for us to service their products or move away from things like fossil fuels towards natural energy sources that doesn't make us dependent on asshole corporations. We could stop putting generation of generation through an indoctrination of public school learning that teaches people to be a good slave to society. We could even have higher education services that teach not for the insane amounts of money they make off students just searching for meaningful careers, but they could also actually help these students to get jobs to pay back their loans, instead of pumping out graduates and not giving a shit if jobs actually even exist for them. Students loans (at least in the usa) are not even allowed to be wiped away through bankruptcy, so if you graduate college with a ton of debt and can't get a decent job, no one gives a shit about you; this is another example of the rich preying on the poor and it's even worse because these people are working hard and trying to get ahead and it goes completely against that stupid "work hard" to succeed in america slogan. I mean even the great big US military that has a presence in most of the world seems to be hated everywhere. Other countries love our money that we bring and the protection that we provide, but they hate us for taking over or influencing their culture and not being able to say no. That always made me think our alliances are just about asserting control and not good relations or peace or anything like that. I mean I could go on...but I think the US is kind of a sick country to be honest, but I'm not sure the rest of the world is any/much better either. I think most people just try to deal with it and enjoy their lives as best they can, but some people aren't so lucky and they take it out on society, especially as people become more isolated.

And I mean jeezzz...look at US politics. Two sides that try to find the worst in each other and make the other out to be some kind of satan or devil. And I mean every time I think that Trump became our elected representative to talk on our behalf with foreign nations, I see a used car salesman trying to screw them (and not that I thought Hillary was better); but wtf. And then all people care about is the President and don't pay attention to the state and federal representatives that have the most effect on them. Because that's harder for the media outlets to sensationalize. Then it doesn't help that corporations essentially run our government and thus the economy. If the government wants to make changes, like pushing clean energy, they usually have to give tax cuts or some form of compensation for citizens or corporations for it to even happen; they are butt-buddies to the corporations. Then we have a consumerist society that constantly throws everything away and buys anew, creating giant landfills because it's cheaper for someone to haul that shit away and dump it, then to recycle it. Government should have stepped in a long time ago and funded some kind of sustainable recycling program. Or better yet, they should have forced businesses to make products that could be easily serviced and recycled. Or the government is influenced by lobbyists to make particular changes or give contracts that help one group over another, making it easier for the massive finances and resources of large corporations to strangle and over-power their competition, while lining the pockets of the elected representatives that were supposed to think about the greater good (whatever that is anyway); and that's not at all in the spirit of capitalism or doing what's good for the people. And the minimum wage doesn't keep up with inflation. And you have no say in whether you want to be a part of all of this or not.

Heh, and then we have our wonderful news programs that push their own weird agendas that constantly show up how messed up we all are or how all our problems are someone else's fault. And our social culture or entertainment is full of rappers, pop starts, movie stars, hollywood dipshits, and these "popular" people who are a voice for younger generations. And these people just put on an image or a kind of act for the masses. They appeal to the lowest common denominators of society because that's what people want. Crappy movies that try not to get too deep or make the viewer think too much or just push political agendas, the same shock-factor and rinse and repeated music, and all the blandness of modern day celebrity drama and boring social media. It's just not profitable to appeal to higher aspects of the intellect. People care more about what the Kardashians are doing and who said what and to whom like it really matters. I mean somebody like Taylor Swift (nothing against her personally, I hear she's actually pretty humble or something) or Justin Bieber or Kanye West (and what a frickin narcissist these guys are) racks in insane amounts of money and fame and becomes icons for impressionable kids, but somebody with a PHD that takes about physics and philosophy and the arts is pretty boring to your average citizen. I still think it's insane how someone like Logan Paul could become popular, but someone that teaches people about how to take care of a car or learn about electronics or how to repair things or welding or taking care of daily problems and such, anything like that is just not interesting to most. I mean that blows my mind. US society is seemingly built around this idea that everyone should be reliant on everyone else and that Hollywood and other forms of entertainment are iconic for our culture. You get consumed by it all; and you can isolate yourself, but then you're just by yourself...and it just feels incredibly depressing either way.

I think I need a drink.

 

[Lark]

I don't know. But personally speaking, I've had dark thoughts like that, but always thought it wouldn't do much good to do something like that. Plus it's kind of hard to hate a stranger that you've never met. Going after particular people though for very specific reasons, such as taking out certain politicians and such...that would be interesting, but again, it probably wouldn't do any good in the long run. Somebody would just replace them.

You'd need to wipe out the entire system, the entire structure for society. Turn everything into chaos that nobody has a large upper hand in with money or power. But it would have to be the entire human civilization, not just one country or it's a waste. So there is always global nuclear war...that could level everything out and allow humanity to kind of try and start things over. Even if we just end up with the same narcissistic world where money and power reigns supreme and every person is just a cog in the modern day political framework, subservient to the current and lawful mob rule of the federal and state governments, we'd learn a bit more about the failings of the human race at the very least.

On the other other hand, we could start promoting and moving towards a society that doesn't turn basic needs into a commodity. We could stop letting the rich extort the poor for more money that the poor didn't have to begin with through loans to buy things the poor need like places to live and cars to go to work. Using loans to buy things you need, but can't afford makes zero sense as a society; loans are supposed to be used for investments, not the school bully that takes everyone's lunch money every day. We could stop promoting the idea that you need to sacrifice health and fun and all your time to make enough money to pay all your bills or save some money and even stop promoting the idea that work or your value as a human being should be all about cash flow and profits and bank account numbers, rather than quality of life or what good your work or service really brings to the people. We could stop letting corporations dictate how we buy, use, and own things by making it harder and harder for us to service their products or move away from things like fossil fuels towards natural energy sources that doesn't make us dependent on asshole corporations. We could stop putting generation of generation through an indoctrination of public school learning that teaches people to be a good slave to society. We could even have higher education services that teach not for the insane amounts of money they make off students just searching for meaningful careers, but they could also actually help these students to get jobs to pay back their loans, instead of pumping out graduates and not giving a shit if jobs actually even exist for them. Students loans (at least in the usa) are not even allowed to be wiped away through bankruptcy, so if you graduate college with a ton of debt and can't get a decent job, no one gives a shit about you; this is another example of the rich preying on the poor and it's even worse because these people are working hard and trying to get ahead and it goes completely against that stupid "work hard" to succeed in america slogan. I mean even the great big US military that has a presence in most of the world seems to be hated everywhere. Other countries love our money that we bring and the protection that we provide, but they hate us for taking over or influencing their culture and not being able to say no. That always made me think our alliances are just about asserting control and not good relations or peace or anything like that. I mean I could go on...but I think the US is kind of a sick country to be honest, but I'm not sure the rest of the world is any/much better either. I think most people just try to deal with it and enjoy their lives as best they can, but some people aren't so lucky and they take it out on society, especially as people become more isolated.

And I mean jeezzz...look at US politics. Two sides that try to find the worst in each other and make the other out to be some kind of satan or devil. And I mean every time I think that Trump became our elected representative to talk on our behalf with foreign nations, I see a used car salesman trying to screw them (and not that I thought Hillary was better); but wtf. And then all people care about is the President and don't pay attention to the state and federal representatives that have the most effect on them. Because that's harder for the media outlets to sensationalize. Then it doesn't help that corporations essentially run our government and thus the economy. If the government wants to make changes, like pushing clean energy, they usually have to give tax cuts or some form of compensation for citizens or corporations for it to even happen; they are butt-buddies to the corporations. Then we have a consumerist society that constantly throws everything away and buys anew, creating giant landfills because it's cheaper for someone to haul that shit away and dump it, then to recycle it. Government should have stepped in a long time ago and funded some kind of sustainable recycling program. Or better yet, they should have forced businesses to make products that could be easily serviced and recycled. Or the government is influenced by lobbyists to make particular changes or give contracts that help one group over another, making it easier for the massive finances and resources of large corporations to strangle and over-power their competition, while lining the pockets of the elected representatives that were supposed to think about the greater good (whatever that is anyway); and that's not at all in the spirit of capitalism or doing what's good for the people. And the minimum wage doesn't keep up with inflation. And you have no say in whether you want to be a part of all of this or not.

Heh, and then we have our wonderful news programs that push their own weird agendas that constantly show up how messed up we all are or how all our problems are someone else's fault. And our social culture or entertainment is full of rappers, pop starts, movie stars, hollywood dipshits, and these "popular" people who are a voice for younger generations. And these people just put on an image or a kind of act for the masses. They appeal to the lowest common denominators of society because that's what people want. Crappy movies that try not to get too deep or make the viewer think too much or just push political agendas, the same shock-factor and rinse and repeated music, and all the blandness of modern day celebrity drama and boring social media. It's just not profitable to appeal to higher aspects of the intellect. People care more about what the Kardashians are doing and who said what and to whom like it really matters. I mean somebody like Taylor Swift (nothing against her personally, I hear she's actually pretty humble or something) or Justin Bieber or Kanye West (and what a frickin narcissist these guys are) racks in insane amounts of money and fame and becomes icons for impressionable kids, but somebody with a PHD that takes about physics and philosophy and the arts is pretty boring to your average citizen. I still think it's insane how someone like Logan Paul could become popular, but someone that teaches people about how to take care of a car or learn about electronics or how to repair things or welding or taking care of daily problems and such, anything like that is just not interesting to most. I mean that blows my mind. US society is seemingly built around this idea that everyone should be reliant on everyone else and that Hollywood and other forms of entertainment are iconic for our culture. You get consumed by it all; and you can isolate yourself, but then you're just by yourself...and it just feels incredibly depressing either way.

I think I need a drink.

By necrophilia is meant love for all that is violence and destruction; the desire to kill; the worship of force; attraction to death, to suicide, to sadism; the desire to transform the organic into the inorganic by means of "order." The necrophile, lacking the necessary qualities to create, in his impotence finds it easy to destroy because for him it serves only one quality: force.
Erich Fromm, Credo (1965)

Necrophilia - Wikiquote

 

[Andy]

I definitely think that the majority of spree killer incidents are murder-suicides, the only time I know of in which it didnt appear to be so was in a movie I saw once in which a guy uses a rampage as a cover for a robbery and frames his friend as the shooter, it was more of horror movie than the action thriller I thought it had intended to be.

I remember reading some sources after the Columbine massacre, when these kinds of things were less of a trend, talking about it being some kind of dark side of the "American Dream" and a cultural thing as opposed to individual pathology, mainly because there are nations, even english speaking ones, which do have the same availability of firearms, but perhaps not the same gun culture, and spree killing does not happen.

The other thing I was going to mention in this thread was that fire arms offenses and spree killing of that sort is not the only mas murder, there was the nurse in Germany who admitted to killing hundreds of people, there was Harold Shipman in the UK, there where a few nurses in the UK killing elderly clients or babies with insulin or medication. That appears to be a thing almost. Not sensationalised but yet still happening.

An interesting point about serial killers, who seem to crop up everywhere. It must take a peculiar mental state to quietly keep up that sort of murderous urge for year on end. Over all, I think they are in a different category to the lone gunmen. Serial killers try to get away with their crimes, at least initially, where as they lone gunmen is sudden explosion of suicidal violence.

 

[Beargryllz]

It has to be exhilarating, like nothing you've ever felt or imagined
Most of these mass murderers have never even killed people before

 

[Lark]

An interesting point about serial killers, who seem to crop up everywhere. It must take a peculiar mental state to quietly keep up that sort of murderous urge for year on end. Over all, I think they are in a different category to the lone gunmen. Serial killers try to get away with their crimes, at least initially, where as they lone gunmen is sudden explosion of suicidal violence.

I do agree, the spree killer seems to conclude their murder in a single act, seeking as high a body count as possible surely but its not a planned thing, some spree killers have only managed to kill or injure one or two others before they are stopped or kill themselves as they are going to be stopped.

The serial killers I've mentioned, Harold Shipman, other nurses or medical professionals like the guy in Germany, its a different matter, they want to commit the crime but getting away with it and even setting others up for it are part of the act itself. I've read about it being associated with repetition trauma, at least in the cases described as dealing with strong preferences for a particular victim profile, like they are repeating a single incident or act, also some stuff about addiction has been interesting too but I'm not sure about it all.

I'm not sure that its an "urge" so to speak or a "rage", it could be, but that's all speculation, for everyone of them that it is a feature I'd bet there are others its not. I think that culture can be important too, if there is a culture of death, even a moderate one or disguised and qualified one then there will not be reverence for life and respect for life and persons that could make it unconscionable or discourage it providing an avenue for persons who could be experiencing what is referred to in some criminological literature as "delinquency and drift" (obviously its not simply juvenile delinquency which the word delinquency has become almost exclusively associated with).

- - - Updated - - -

It has to be exhilarating, like nothing you've ever felt or imagined
Most of these mass murderers have never even killed people before

That's pretty sinister.

Or at least I think that's what you're going for when you post that.

 

[Metis]

I'm not sure that its an "urge" so to speak or a "rage", it could be, but that's all speculation, for everyone of them that it is a feature I'd bet there are others its not. I think that culture can be important too, if there is a culture of death

You've mentioned a "culture of death" before. I'd like to hear what you mean by it. I see a nihilistic culture in certain ways, but I don't know if I'm thinking of the same thing you are.

I agree that there are multiple background motives that lead to mass murder; they can't all be reduced to the same set of emotions. There might be a handful of common patterns, though. For example, a combination of anger and despair is probably one. Another likely common mindset is bloodlust. Someone with a proclivity for martyrdom might even think s/he is committing a romantic act of some kind. Different personalities, different rationales, but there are probably a few of them that predominate.

 

[Metis]

 

[Lark]

You've mentioned a "culture of death" before. I'd like to hear what you mean by it. I see a nihilistic culture in certain ways, but I don't know if I'm thinking of the same thing you are.

I agree that there are multiple background motives that lead to mass murder; they can't all be reduced to the same set of emotions. There might be a handful of common patterns, though. For example, a combination of anger and despair is probably one. Another likely common mindset is bloodlust. Someone with a proclivity for martyrdom might even think s/he is committing a romantic act of some kind. Different personalities, different rationales, but there are probably a few of them that predominate.

Culture that has no reverence for life, young, old, human, animal etc. etc.

 

[Metis]

Culture that has no reverence for life, young, old, human, animal etc. etc.

Can you give examples?

 

[rav3n]

Watched a little over eight minutes of the clip. She forgot to mention that her son was arrested with his friend, a year before the shootings. They broke into a car, were caught and subsequently put through a juvi program for around a year which included anger management classes and community service.

Dustin was also initially part of a highly gifted program in elementary school and according to his brother, only remained in it to please their parents. The older brother also went through part of the program but happily left it since it created a goldfish bowl effect where gifted kids were hated by others because of envy and differences. Apparently, Dustin was very sensitive and shy which was known by the family. After being in the goldfish bowl, he had a hard time transitioning to a normal middle school program.

So while I'm glad that she's become a mental health advocate, she's not telling the full story, mitigating her and likely her husband's impact on Dustin's mental health issues.

 

[Mole]

National Socialism mass murdered 12 million of their own people, not the enemy but their own people, 6 million Jews and 6 million others, over 7 years.

International Communism mass murdered 100 million of their own people, not the enemy but their own people, across the world, over 70 years.

By contrast mass murder is carried out in the USA by individuals in very small numbers.

So wholesale mass murder is carried out by the State, while individual mass murder is a cottage industry.

And we can see that individual mass murder in the USA is aided and abetted by the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms.

 

[Tellenbach]

Whatever gives them those blank, dead eyes. You could tell that Loughner and Lanza were nuts just from looking at their photos.

I'm sure if you interviewed their parents and friends, they'd tell you these were troubled kids.

Newtown gunman's dad wishes son was never born: New Yorker

Lanza said that by the time his son entered middle school, it was clear something was wrong. Adam Lanza was socially awkward, anxious, unable to concentrate and afflicted with insomnia. Adam Lanza was diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome, a high-functioning form of autism, at 13. But after a severe reaction to an anti-anxiety drug, he refused to take any more psychotropic medication.

Lanza said the Asperger’s diagnosis may have been masking schizophrenia.

The Troubled Life of Jared Loughner

It seems clear that Loughner was developing a mental illness, but which one? Many signs point to one of the psychotic disorders — delusional disorder, say, or schizophrenia, for which the average age of onset is roughly 20, about when Loughner started showing symptoms. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders includes "substance-induced psychotic disorder," which is also a possibility in Loughner's case.

With Loughner, it seems the problems started with drug use after high school.