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Is it a personal offense for someone to question your type?

misfortuneteller

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
578
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I do find it offensive when people question my 9 typing because 1) It makes me singled out which is something that a core 9 doesn't want., 2) It undermines my knowledge in enneagram., 3) It is usually based on the so first 9w1s which aren't even the majority of 9s anyway.
 

Starry

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May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
I'm glad we are part of something that helps us learn how to be ourselves better. So many ways in which we need help seeing ourselves, and so many ways in which understanding how our needs and ways of being ourselves are different from others requires being confronted with those differences. Someone recently quoted something to me from a speaker who talked about others as mirrors and windows. I tend to have the same ideas. I think we also need to help not only holding a sense of ourselves in some ways but also holding the way in which we fit together.

The Holy Mountain is a pretty fun movie that explores the enneagram in practice in this light.





Conflict is awkward. There's also a weird public thing that can amplify reactions. I liken it to raising your hand to say something in class or being given a mic at a conference or wedding. The feeling of uncertainty in terms of how you will be perceived by so many people that you can't really be aware of just ignites this energy within you, and your heart pounds, and you feel a tightness everywhere. I think it's easy to feel like that when posting something public on the internet that magnifies the nature of conflict. So many people could have a variety of reactions on top of whatever conflict already exists there. So many ways to be judged.

(With this said, the tendency to shame oneself instead of fully embracing the unpleasantness and sense of riskiness of putting something out there isn't healthy or constructive either, and it often way overestimates the importance of the initial thing and way underestimates the value of learning and taking responsibility for your side of whatever comes up for others).

Apart from that, I think trying to be helpful generally feels right. I think owning the way in which having conflicting ideas or feeling frustrated by disagreement affects us and motivates us to post in the first place is important too. It's also a lot different if you're talking with someone you have some baseline for trust and who you feel also in some meaningful way SEES you. Appreciating the learning journey of this forum, I think, is positive for me to give myself some permission to be interested in engaging on both a human level and also a more research oriented one. I used to go more wildly back and forth turning myself into a monster (in my own mind) when I'd compare some of my motives with those of some of the infps, who seemed more pure in some way because the way they empathized first (when at their best), which seemed most humane. Now I'm more steady in appreciating that on its own terms while also appreciating the search for clarity and useful mental models that helps us understand emotions and explore the implications of certain patterns of reaction too. There's no need for an existential either/or. Letting the situation be the situation and the needs present in it be what they are instead of getting blown into absolutism has worked better. Humility helps make everything less about us too, and if we don't shame and need some counterforce to keep us from deflating, humility is a lot easier.

That I've been (and continue to be) in a relationship with an enfp for nearly the last 3 years highlights to me the value of both sides. My experience shows both can offer useful ways in to resolving conflict, taking the lead in guiding some kind of better thing, and living well with others more generally.

In another view, appreciating and welcoming some T help has been really good in helping correct things. The end goal of emotional well-being is openness that balances buoyancy and gravity and enables us to be in alignment with the rules of reality, life, selfhood, and relationship. Responsibility comes from being willing to choose the path and not just the product, which requires earning control over yourself and expanding your ability to make meaningful choices.

tldr Not taking things personally is really helpful when growth is the goal.


When I was in school I only ever read the tldr’s haha (I’m serious I often thought “why do I spend money on textbooks?”). But I read your post here multiple times and loved it! Like, I have a new happiness in me that will keep me company today. But the tldr part is where the crux of the issue is for me. <-Although I’m clearly failing to communicate why maintaining a spirit of openness and detachment and a true connection to others that doesn’t force agreement or manipulate agreement through gossip or “playing the victim”...but allows the person the space to share what they see and experience.

I wish I had an analogy handy but I can’t seem to come up with one and I believe it’s because I know on some level that no amount of explaining or vehicle of rhetoric if that’s even a thing will aid me in being heard. I’ve got a lot of force...and yet I’m no match for the assumptions I encounter here now.

This isn’t about robbing people of their identities (I actually don’t even know how that would be possible so if I’m missing something there I would appreciate someone explaining it to me). This isn’t about not believing that people do in fact incorporate type into their identities <-like I was confused about [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION]’s comment seeing he’s part of my identity as “what I would be like if I was cool and male”. It is my personal opinion and from the looks of it personal opinion alone...that type is being used in an unhealthy way if it is so much a part of your identity it can’t be challenged...or you are so offended by someone thinking you are a different type you lash out at the person or seek to destroy their reputation or something. But I do know this occurs. There have always been mistypes and people that use type to fortify their identities.

The problem is that in creating safe spaces...I think people became confused regarding the tool of typology and what all it was designed for. This is why we now have people requesting to be typed...and feeling unsupported and offended etc. when they receive a typing they do not like. <-And these folks are getting more and more vocal and hurtful because they have been hurt in their minds...which causes old skoolers to assume the person was typed at an inappropriate time or in an inappropriate way because of their understanding. Like, obviously the person has been wronged because no one gets offended if they actually ask to be typed. This is like creating a landmine situation.

idk. I’ve been working with tools more and more...and know...sometimes through having learned the hard way that tools can be rendered useless or even dangerous if used improperly...if you use them for reasons they were not designed for...and I feel that is likely what is occurring here. Typology calls out for open channels...input from others...etc. I mean, I’m to the point that it’s pretty clear to me most people won’t be able to do the enneagram on their own without outside assistance <-and if that process will slow to a stop merely because people are fearful...not knowing if the can share their thoughts...I better just act like I think they’re what’s listed... that’s a huge loss.

A huge loss I’m cool with if everyone else is cool with it though or just don’t give a shit. I came here because this site operated more like a university classroom or faculty dept. A place of learning. People seemed to want their ideas challenged...their understanding of themselves and others challenged...like I honestly got the sense the purpose for most was growth and exploration. The all-support model is fine. I think that there’s a false belief that supporting a person no matter what is the most humane thing to do...and many times it is. But not always. Sometimes it’s actually harmful or simply enabling. But the all-support model is fine if that’s the direction people want to go in.

Thank you for supporting me by not supporting me though as it’s truly changed my life for the better.
 

Qlip

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...

This isn’t about robbing people of their identities (I actually don’t even know how that would be possible so if I’m missing something there I would appreciate someone explaining it to me). This isn’t about not believing that people do in fact incorporate type into their identities <-like I was confused about [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION]’s comment seeing he’s part of my identity as “what I would be like if I was cool and male”. It is my personal opinion and from the looks of it personal opinion alone...that type is being used in an unhealthy way if it is so much a part of your identity it can’t be challenged...or you are so offended by someone thinking you are a different type you lash out at the person or seek to destroy their reputation or something. But I do know this occurs. There have always been mistypes and people that use type to fortify their identities.

...

Thanks Starry! Oh no, that's not what I meant at all. I think identity is important to everybody in different ways. I've got my own way, which is that I'm kind of built to be pretty insular when working with my identity. And some people use identity as a more public/external tool in their life. Some are a bit more objective about typology and feel like we all need an agreed upon source of truth to refer to. And some have other goals all together, they want to establish a truth. I don't really see any particular view as more wrong than the other.

I have my personal preferences about identity and typology, which are actually are not terribly judgemental of what other people think. I also have personal preferences of how I want to go about life, or use this forum, and there is where friction can happen with this particular subject, but I've never found type disagreements problematical. I think the last time somebody was always really insistent about who I was, it was MacG who was convinced I was INTP.

I don't feel that other people here are the types that they claim. But there's always a caveat for me when I say that. I think they're not the type they claim as I exercise my understanding of MBTI. It's entirely possible to me that MBTI itself is not defined enough that everybody has their own version of it in their minds and use it differently. I don't think this would be a good situation for something that, for me, depends on very strong objectivity, like physics. But for MBTI, it's an A-OK thing.
 

Forever

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This thread is taking people:

Higher
 

the state i am in

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infj
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Social identity and ideology, I think, go hand-in-hand. It's really easy for us to want to find ways of capturing and expressing and maintaining a social identity that empowers us in some way socially. Then, we are also in a place where the ideologies that support that identity can easily become a fortress.

In other words, we can easily just hold our preferences rigidly and project them, and use whatever tools we have to assert that in a political manner (eg come back with more people on my side). Or, we can try to find the actual starting points for ourselves to recognize what has actually been happening within us and start developing a gameplan to make that better and become more free in responding in generous ways.

There's probably a good handful of people here who are interested in self-development from a business or spiritual lens. There are also assuredly many people who are looking for a tribe to belong to. In my own experience, it's been helpful to me personally in both ways. In the latter, I think, it helped me see and prioritize certain types of connections with other people, and gave me an abstract idea of a group I could belong to--one that wasn't defined by this space but was easier to notice after participating here. I am very grateful for that.

I do think too that in the social media climate we live in, many people feel on high alert in terms of fighting other groups that are intentionally or destructively misrepresenting them. I don't know if social media is making things more fractured, hostile, and reductionistic, or it is on some level just showing those of us who before mostly blended in what it's like to experience social life from positions that many minority groups already had been living out. I mean, for myself, as a liberal democrat, watching something like Fox News, even as my "tribe" has probably a slight majority edge in terms of overall people, is incredibly unsettling. I thought about going to a Trump rally when it comes through just to see what it's like and try to deal with this spooky question of "who goes to a Trump rally?" I imagine so many people have built so much disgust and hatred towards me before having had any real conversations with anyone like me. Like I would be a vessel for them to hold themselves in a state of constant anger and point the blame at me. And for what? So they don't have to feel their actual conflicts? I don't know, but I would like to know the answer.

I think that's another issue we're kind of dealing with. Those of us who value the principles of the left in terms of dialogue, open-mindedness, fairness, etc, aren't doing a very good job of remembering what emotional responsibility entails. The idea that "you made me feel _______" isn't really a valid statement. We bring so much habituation in our appraisal of emotions and readiness to react. Our interpretative schemes. The magic of emotions is that they aren't directly caused by external events. For us to have authentic conversations, we need to hold both behaviors and emotional responsibilities to account. I think NVC is so good in this respect in reframing conversations away from feelings towards needs. To me, a needs approach restores a more sane, objectifiable social metric than feelings. Most of all, instead of simply prompting reactions, it helps us focus on the useful information. Meanwhile, it gives others options for how they can approach our needs and attempting to meet them in some small way, rather than dictating that they must do exactly what we want them to do, see us exactly how we want them to see us, etc. Hopefully in 2018, it's never been more obvious how limited the latter approach is in leading and helping build real community.
 

Starry

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Messages
6,103
Thanks Starry! Oh no, that's not what I meant at all. I think identity is important to everybody in different ways. I've got my own way, which is that I'm kind of built to be pretty insular when working with my identity. And some people use identity as a more public/external tool in their life. Some are a bit more objective about typology and feel like we all need an agreed upon source of truth to refer to. And some have other goals all together, they want to establish a truth. I don't really see any particular view as more wrong than the other.

I have my personal preferences about identity and typology, which are actually are not terribly judgemental of what other people think. I also have personal preferences of how I want to go about life, or use this forum, and there is where friction can happen with this particular subject, but I've never found type disagreements problematical. I think the last time somebody was always really insistent about who I was, it was MacG who was convinced I was INTP.

I don't feel that other people here are the types that they claim. But there's always a caveat for me when I say that. I think they're not the type they claim as I exercise my understanding of MBTI. It's entirely possible to me that MBTI itself is not defined enough that everybody has their own version of it in their minds and use it differently. I don't think this would be a good situation for something that, for me, depends on very strong objectivity, like physics. But for MBTI, it's an A-OK thing.


Yah see this is precisely where I’m coming from too so why is it only cool when you say it haha! Probably because I’ve taken a several year licken for simply holding...not even discussing...simply holding a different type related opinion so I’ve got a whole lotta *fuck man* behind my statements.

Your avatar is now part of my identity haha. That is the most soothing green I have ever come across.
 

Avocado

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The ingredients needed to whip up some counterphobia? That may be due to the fact I didn’t explain it very well at all. That’s from Tom Condon... he’s a highly regarded enneagram theorist...but he’s also counterphobic (INTJ 6w5cp) and has some good work on that aspect alone.

I thought about it more—if 7 connects to 5 through integration, thus allowing a conterphobic 6 wing in 7w6, couldn’t a 6w7 be counterphobic because its 7 wing also connects to 5?
 

MyINFJness

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Jun 15, 2019
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2
Tricky one, this one. This forum is filled with individuals clearly fascinated with better understanding themselves, that’s the journey of peeling apart our personalities like the the layers of an onion, to truly see what there is piece by piece. And because of this we have one of two tendencies: to search for these layers in others in attempts to clearly shed light on the unknown, or to declare, identify with and embrace the precious gift of knowledge imparted on us the ouch our own searching. Both, I believe, well intentioned. I have appreciated queries or suggestions from others related to my typing. And I have followed up on these queries/suggestions as an opportunity for further self-exploration. Maybe I have missed something. But the reality is we don’t assume alter egos on typology sites vastly different from our authentic selves. We type ourselves because of an inclination from a test, assessment, research, or our own internal compass. It’s particularly horrible for anyone to judge based on what are perceived to be superior/inferior personality traits. That is full spirited meanness. 16 perfect, beautiful personalities, and I hope to greet you all . . .
 

skimpit

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Oct 4, 2016
Messages
717
I don't find it a personal offense.

I just get mad when people ascribe to me traits I find strange, ones that don't match me in a good way. I'm pretty open, so when they start going, "You are really weird..." Or something, I get disheartened. Or when they make me out to be more special than I am. That drives me nuts.
 
Joined
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If they expect me to enter their tiny smelly box......:dry: yes indeed.

If the questions come from a contradictory spirit I'll not lose my own time.
If on the contrary they come from a precise spirit willing to know me better,
I'll probably enter the game. I may learn things about myself (...)
 

Agent Washington

Softserve Ice Cream
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Jan 24, 2017
Messages
2,053
I think it's okay within certain boundaries, like a lot of things. Lets me see how others see me. I'm often quite happy to hear from others about aspects I may not have realised myself. I can see why it would be more personal to others too, so this often is a live-and-let-life kind of thing.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Messages
19,849
I pissed off people around the forum with my random comments on their type.
In my book saying "I think you are XY type" is ok, while attacking the person all around the forum for their type isn't.
 

Tonitrum

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I dont mind, as long as they do make sense and point out why they think my type is incorrect. I would be annoyed if just one of those typist stuff like "Dude, you value XYZ, you are an INFP Fi dom!", because that shit is pretty common and It tells me that majority of members of typology have no idea how cognitive functions and MBTI types work, which leads to being typed incorrectly.
 

RadicalDoubt

Alongside Questionable Clarity
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I usually try to keep OP posts general in order to not skew peoples responses but this time- Im going to answer this with my opinion here too.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous when people act like it is WRONG for someone to DARE question their type. This is a typology website. This is a place where we are trying to understand typology. That means constantly evaluatig and reevaluation behavior and vauses for behavior to understand patterns of type. This is not a place where you get to DEMAND that people see you as a particular type and then when people DONT- get offended and act like they are doing something wrong for questioning you.

Personally, I feel that that behavior in and of itself shows that you have a problem that you are desperatly trying to fill with validation from a typlogy system- rather than actually trying to understand yourself.

To understand typology- peoplee need to feel free to question others. To understand what IS a type- people also need to not fear being called out when they try to determine what “isnt”. If no one is allowed to question- then typology goes from a living and constantly developing understanding to something that is dead and worn by people like a badge.

Again. In my opinion- this is a typology website and Im just... it seems more and more lately this has become less about people trying to understand themselves and others- and more about forcing people to understand them as they want to be seen.

Thats my opinion- and for now, Im sticking to it.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, having your type questioned definitely shouldn't come across as a personal insult. I think it is worth noting that the specific way that some people go about questioning other's types can be offensive/excessively conflict seeking though. So long as you're not pushing a type down someone's throat (whether they are actually mistyped or not), using questioning a person's type purely to deflect an argument you're loosing, and are willing to back off when someone doesn't want to speak with you about their type anymore (be it exhaustion or defending their falsely perceived self if they are mistyped), questioning and discussion should not be a problem and perhaps even encouraged.
 

Merced

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No, it's not a personal attack to question someone's type. There is, however, a line that people can cross like overstating their opinion of someone's type or getting offended when that interpretation of their typing is rejected. Not gonna lie, I can't see how the premise of this thread isn't a veiled attempt to justify doing those things. It's one of those self explanatory things where asking about it is a little incriminating y'know? Yeah, it's a typology forum, but when does that mean you get a say in my identity? Commenting on someone's hair isn't a personal attack, but if you keep hounding them about it, it's still harassment.

Even then, it'd be one thing if this type of harassment was analytical or viable in a way that is objective, but it rarely is. At best it's like "I lurked on your blog and you're an XXXX" followed by constantly reminding them "I think XXXX" when not asked. Then again, that's just a bad understanding of typology in general. If someone really feels that strong a need to correct someone else's identity, then they don't have a good grasp of the theory to begin with, hence their need to correct other people.

The 'it's a typology forum' argument should be about the theory, not a person's personal application of it. Not everyone here writes a blog that reveals aspects of their introspection. Some people literally only talk about typology, how are you supposed to deduce their fears and wishes from that? The more I type the more I hate the premise of this thread, lmao. What kind of passive aggressive shit has been going on since I left?
 

Peter Deadpan

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Messages
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It can feel like a personal attack when one is mistaking their personality structure for their identity.
 

Frosty

Poking the poodle
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Messages
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sp
No, it's not a personal attack to question someone's type. There is, however, a line that people can cross like overstating their opinion of someone's type or getting offended when that interpretation of their typing is rejected. Not gonna lie, I can't see how the premise of this thread isn't a veiled attempt to justify doing those things. It's one of those self explanatory things where asking about it is a little incriminating y'know? Yeah, it's a typology forum, but when does that mean you get a say in my identity? Commenting on someone's hair isn't a personal attack, but if you keep hounding them about it, it's still harassment.

Even then, it'd be one thing if this type of harassment was analytical or viable in a way that is objective, but it rarely is. At best it's like "I lurked on your blog and you're an XXXX" followed by constantly reminding them "I think XXXX" when not asked. Then again, that's just a bad understanding of typology in general. If someone really feels that strong a need to correct someone else's identity, then they don't have a good grasp of the theory to begin with, hence their need to correct other people.

The 'it's a typology forum' argument should be about the theory, not a person's personal application of it. Not everyone here writes a blog that reveals aspects of their introspection. Some people literally only talk about typology, how are you supposed to deduce their fears and wishes from that? The more I type the more I hate the premise of this thread, lmao. What kind of passive aggressive shit has been going on since I left?

This is, if anything as “passive aggressive” as this thread. In which, if you defend yourself by saying it isnt- Ill just point out that me making this thread wasnt intended passive aggresively either and having motives attributed to you HERE is at least as fair as this post that you just wrote.

I get you dont like me, whatever, but this wasnt cool
 

Lord Lavender

Bluered Trickster
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EVLF
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I'm pretty chill about what people type me as overall and in fact I am extremely curious escically for a slightly more unexpected typing :) . I don't see it as a personal attack at all. I might get a bit annoyed though if someone is super fixated on my typing.
 
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