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  1. #101
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I'd be very indifferent and unoffended these days.

    I probably would have reacted in either a defensive/attack or passive aggressive manner in earlier discoveries of type systems.
    Now I'm very unconcerned, with occasional lapses (which are really just attempts to garner other's opinions on myself because of an insecurity I'm in the process of weaning myself off).

    In many cases it can be a fun opportunity, if you can find out what a type means to an individuals perception, you can take advantage of flowing unburdened with that constraint, whereas they will be trying to fit the goal posts in a rigid and abstracted manner.

    And you can become underestimated, which can be a huge advantage in life for various reasons. But that might be because my strengths lie in what is unseen or hidden, things people are avoiding or not noticing (within reason though :I'm only one person and not above average).
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #102
    A Bittersweet Symphony... The Cat's Avatar
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    "Out of curiosity Jack, why do you type as..."
    "I noticed you're typing as XXXX, I have some questions, and I'd enjoy discussing it would you mind?"
    "Sharp tie, Jack, looking good, now about your typing, I have some questions..."



    "There's no way you're XXXX, I just can't see it."
    "I hear what you're saying about why you claim that type, but I'm going to dismiss your time and research in favor of my own vastly superior...ness."
    "Stirrup pants are not an abomination before gods and man...and I think your typing is shit."



    I am the Cat who walks by himself; and all places are alike to me...


    Who knows what goes on in the mind of a cat?

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  3. #103
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lib View Post
    Typing could be just another way to say "You suck at [insert by choice]". From what I read here, people who were avoiding confrontation found themselves in a confrontation with others. That's a therapeutic strategy for victims of emotional abuse. Isn't it strange when someone gets caught up in a discussion with the people they oppose, not the ones they agree with? I'm yet to hear about people learning life lessons from the security of their comfort zone.
    If the highlighted means people who have different opinions, that's fine. It it means people who are going to be rude and obnoxious in how the present those opinions, not fine. That is just so much noise that threatens to drown out the signal.

    See also Jack's examples above.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  4. #104
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lib View Post
    someone hiding their malicious intents behind nice words?
    Nasty critter.

  5. #105
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lib View Post
    I already read his tutorial but imo things aren't so black and white. Someone's typing could be perceived as rude if they try to express unflattering but honest opinion about the person, even if they mean no harm with it, or simply the person perceives it as an insult. There sure are people with a very good sense of someone's weak spots who might present their opinion in an eloquent and seemingly thoughtful way only to confuse and hurt the person in question. Now, what in your opinion is more cruel - someone being harsh but honest, or someone hiding their malicious intents behind nice words?

    The rest of what I said is quite straightforward - one doesn't find themselves in their comfort zone.
    I look for that middle ground between nice words and harsh, which is basically focusing on the facts.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #106
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Jack View Post
    "There's no way you're XXXX, I just can't see it."
    "I hear what you're saying about why you claim that type, but I'm going to dismiss your time and research in favor of my own vastly superior...ness."
    "Stirrup pants are not an abomination before gods and man...and I think your typing is shit."
    The problem with these examples (except for the first one) is that they're stated in a way (I assume) is meant to bring levity, but (for example) people who dismiss the time and research of others in favor of their perceived superiority of their own opinion rarely directly say so; rather, their posts are problematic because it's the implicit message behind their words. Their words may actually contain a great deal of schmoozing/decorum to veil the forcefulness and/or maybe even feign humility (e.g. "you know you're one of my favorite people, but..", "I love Te (or Fe, or Ne) types a lot, and...", "I know you're not Ti because you're really good at ____ and we Ti types aren't", etc). The underlying issue though is a strong need for others to inculcate one's own notions about type (and/or about someone else's specific type, or about type differences, or any piece of 'information' about type) as gospel truth, and getting this affirmation by a forcefulness of willpower rather than the more respectful approach of mutual discernment.

    The mutual discernment approach doesn't mean the person giving the feedback must bend to match the person in question if the person in question doesn't agree - it just means that the person giving feedback must be okay with an "agree to disagree" conclusion. There's nothing wrong (imo) with putting an opinion 'out there' - even if it lacks the decorum of the "good idea" examples above (e.g "I'd enjoy discussing it") - so long as there's no attachment for the recipient of that feedback (or others, for that matter) to agree. Wherever someone giving feedback needs for external reality to reflect back that their opinion is correct though (where there's an attachment to getting positive affirmation), therein lies the inappropriate forcefulness of the "bad idea" approach.

    tl;dr: I think it's a "bad idea" approach if there's any attachment to getting one's theory positively affirmed, without an openness to others disagreeing. And the amount of friendly decorum used doesn't effectively determine the good approach from the bad, because it's relatively easy and common for people to veil a bad approach with friendly decorum.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    INFJ 5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari -or- disagree with my type?

  7. #107
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The problem with these examples (except for the first one) is that they're stated in a way (I assume) is meant to bring levity, but (for example) people who dismiss the time and research of others in favor of their perceived superiority of their own opinion rarely directly say so; rather, their posts are problematic because it's the implicit message behind their words. Their words may actually contain a great deal of schmoozing/decorum to veil the forcefulness and/or maybe even feign humility (e.g. "you know you're one of my favorite people, but..", "I love Te (or Fe, or Ne) types a lot, and...", "I know you're not Ti because you're really good at ____ and we Ti types aren't", etc). The underlying issue though is a strong need for others to inculcate one's own notions about type (and/or about someone else's specific type, or about type differences, or any piece of 'information' about type) as gospel truth, and getting this affirmation by a forcefulness of willpower rather than the more respectful approach of mutual discernment.
    See, this is just all so much window dressing as I see it. I ignore it to focus on the specifics of what they have to say, whether about type or anything else. Same if they have littered their post with insults instead of schmoozing. Just noise of a different frequency.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  8. #108
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    My point was that I don't think it (whether or not it's a personal offense to question someone's type) is about adding nicey-nice decorum or even humor - notwithstanding the fact that these tools can be remarkably effective with some people, to either pad the impact or help a person take their 'type' less seriously (regardless of how useless it may come across to some as merely window dressing - there are others who actually need it). So I do see the point in Jack's post. I'm just saying I think the issue is more fundamental than that.

    I think it's okay to put forth ideas/observations so long as it's done with enough detachment that the other person has enough room to disagree and ultimately identify with whatever feels right to them in the end, without being hassled for it. When a person gets relentless in any way and/or clearly 'needs' the other person to cede, that's when it's a problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lib View Post
    Now, what in your opinion is more cruel - someone being harsh but honest, or someone hiding their malicious intents behind nice words?
    Pretty much this, except I wouldn't even say it's malicious in most cases. I'm more inclined to say it's on a spectrum from mildly thoughtless (regardless of what the person is telling themselves about why they're being relentless) to full on parasitic (treating other people in the surrounding external environment like objects that exist to reflect back a convenient or flattering image).

    I can think of at least one person (in the years I've been here) who systematically hit red on the parasite-o-meter but who also consistently flew under the radar of 'official' consequences because she padded her type 'advice' with so much syrupy nicey-nice decorum. IMO, it was offensive - and it would have fallen under the "good idea" parameters in Jack's post. (eta: It's worth mentioning that she didn't fall under the radar of natural consequences of being that way though, and it had a significantly bad effect on *a lot* of people, as that type of behavior will always tend to in the end).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    INFJ 5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari -or- disagree with my type?
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  9. #109
    A Bittersweet Symphony... The Cat's Avatar
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    "Jackson Pollock had this exhibition about 1935, can’t remember the date fully, but he had this big white canvas, right? And this was the whole bit, this was the main exhibit, he just got a big bucket of black paint, threw it at the canvas, smeared it around and then put in two little splashes of red paint. That was it. Then he fucked off. So they do this exhibition, there was an art critic there...
    ...So they asked this art critic... They go, “What do you think of this piece?” And he goes, “Hmm, hmm. Interesting. I believe that this is a self-portrait of Jackson.” ... "Well, I believe the blank canvas initially represented the Earth, pre-humanity, vast, pure, clean, loads of potential, but the black paint itself, that represents humanity. Random, chaotic, often overlapping, no start or end in sight, just constantly moving, no idea where it’s gonna go and no idea whenever it’s gonna stop. All we can tell is that it’s constantly repeating its history and often over-riding it. And we can deduce that one day it will eventually consume all of the Earth. But the two red dots, these are Jackson. Small, insignificant, yet, they stand out against the rest of humanity."
    Twenty minutes later, Jackson Pollock, the fucking artist, turns up. “Mr. Pollack, thank you so much for this wonderful, wonderful exhibit. Just a quick question in regards to the main piece. Can we just ask you, what do the two red dots represent?” And Jackson Pollock on record said… “What? Ha! Huh. I must have splashed it when I was painting that one.” Just because you can find meaning in the art, doesn’t necessarily mean that was the meaning the artist necessarily intended to be there..." -Daniel Sloss, Jigsaw.


    I am the Cat who walks by himself; and all places are alike to me...


    Who knows what goes on in the mind of a cat?


  10. #110
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    I appreciate Z Buck's comments and would like to add as another facet of what she's touching on that appears to be being missed (I actually can't tell) are just how many incidents are occurring these days where members are being attacked for what qualifies as "appropriate typings". Typings that are delivered in an appropriate way at an appropriate time. For example, in the individual's Type Me thread <- This is the true topic here. The OP did not ask "Is it a personal offense when a person types you all shitty like?" or "Is it a personal offense when someone types you in the middle of a discussion on abortion?" no. "Is it a personal offense to have someone type you?"...period.

    I'm having a difficult time deciding how to say what I'm trying to say...and I'm well aware of the fact I'm not the member to say it even if I could as I basically just got busted for losing it and offending every single ENFP on the planet accurately typed or not (some people offend individuals: I offend entire types). <-But that busting originated with me having provided the "wrong answer" in a type me thread. I'm not sure if it is enough to say "type nice at a nice time" and all will be well. Because that was not my experience at all. When people feel insulted and there's resentment there...that's not a good thing. So I thought I'd try to provide some information in this regard.

    I think it is important for each person to discover what typology means to them. But in general...according to the theories themselves...these were not created for people to hang their identity hat on. These are extraordinarily superficial measures... even the enneagram which I acknowledge is a little different but I saw someone claim that it constitutes the person's "entire psychological make-up" or something like that and that is just not true. Not according to Starry "not true"...I'm talking "not according to the enneagram itself not true". Everyone is bigger and more extraordinary than the enneagram...and the enneagram knows it.

    Which leads me to what I see more and more as the greatest complaint (insult)...this sort of "how dare you...you don't know me." Again, I'm not concerning myself with...should we be allowed to type or should we not be allowed to type...I'm just tossing out some thoughts meant to address the insult aspect alone. Because the way I see it is if we were officially dealing in identities and souls here...oh hell yah it would be offensive for someone to question that. But that's not what typology is. Typology is the opposite. The entire point of typology is that you don't know the person.

    I mean, has anyone been professionally typed and gone through the MBTI interview process? I've been through it twice and neither the male or female that did mine knew shit about me. Or if you consider the tests...those questions? typology was designed for the purpose of being able to know people you don't know. Using it as a tool for self-discovery...that came way later. Typology was designed in order to know and understand people you don't have time to get to know and understand. Some of the earliest applications for MBTI were like putting together balanced military troops. And to this day MBTI is primarily used in business/marketing...hiring that's a big one...jury selection... <--And because it has widespread use in business...many business folks...especially in sales... they actually want people who don't know them to share their impressions of them. <-I don't know if I said that right but that doesn't make it any less true ha.

    Anyway...none of what I just wrote has anything to do with typing. I just wanted to consider the insult of it alone...especially the identity aspect as a part of me worries sometimes that doing that may do more harm than good to the person.

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