Is the world set up for the mentally ill?

[prplchknz]

I say it's not I think people like to pretend it is but the fact is even if you try to mold the world into what works for you people will always look at you as less than or lazy. People expect if you look "normal" that you should be able to work 40 hour weeks. bitch please i look normal because i try to keep my stressors low and take meds. I know that based on school (I only go part time, tried full time couldn't do it) that i may never be able to work full time, It sucks. Anyways what's your opinion on if the world is set up for the mentally ill. do you think stigma is actually lessening. I don't think it is I think people can be more open but there's still that judgement of why can't you just stop being lazy?

 

[Snow as White]

Interesting topic.

I think the stigma of mental illness and seeing a therapist is becoming less than it was years and decades ago. (Watching Mad Men and seeing what a big deal seeing a therapist is for just feeling sad seems ridiculous nowadays.)

I think that there are still huge strides to be made before people with mental illnesses become more integrated into the vast realm of humanity. I think there is a natural human tendency to want to separate themselves from what isn't... the same. Some seems to be motivated out of the very human desire to feel superior to others.

I also think a lot of people lack empathy and compassion to consider what others go through. Having someone say, "I have a mental disease and it affects me in these ways" and the response being "Stop being lazy"... they just completely miss the point, especially considering how prevalent it is to society.

Mental Health by the Numbers

 

[prplchknz]

Interesting topic.

I think the stigma of mental illness and seeing a therapist is becoming less than it was years and decades ago. (Watching Mad Men and seeing what a big deal seeing a therapist is for just feeling sad seems ridiculous nowadays.)

I think that there are still huge strides to be made before people with mental illnesses become more integrated into the vast realm of humanity. I think there is a natural human tendency to want to separate themselves from what isn't... the same. Some seems to be motivated out of the very human desire to feel superior to others.

I also think a lot of people lack empathy and compassion to consider what others go through. Having someone say, "I have a mental disease and it affects me in these ways" and the response being "Stop being lazy"... they just completely miss the point, especially considering how prevalent it is to society.

Mental Health by the Numbers

I do agree with the first paragraph and the second and the third

 

[Lark]

I think it depends on the mental illness.

There's some sorts of mental illness that IS adaptive and people can pass themselves as not even ill despite the fact that there's plenty of traits which objectively would be considered unhealthy, its why people with low affective empathy and high cognitive empathy can rise rapidly to the top of corporations, the whole "snakes in suits" idea, sociopaths in business.

Also I'm absolutely convinced that through atrophy and entropy society has got that human essence and human existence do not pair up or pair off. So if you're really not able to forfeit very human needs to conform and fit in, you arent going to prosper and then those that prosper are a sort of self selecting and perpetuating elite. They manufacture norms, spread them, pass them on to the next generation. Sometimes people in crisis, people who're becoming unwell are just less denatured, more in touch with what it is to be human than what it is that's fashionable at the moment, some contexts and societies would drive anyone mad.

I do think that people who're already experiencing mental illness can be stigmatised, social exclusion is a thing, I think there's a lot of reasons for that. Its an invisible illness, diabetes and other examples exist too. Although sometimes I think visible illnesses, say people with mobility issues are stigmatised and tax peoples patience in ways they once didnt and shouldnt. The world is hardening its heart against disability and illness.

I think its got to do with a mutated work ethic, which doesnt even match reality, and also the so called optimisation or positive thinking movements, those things are already taking on bad characters. Sometimes anyone who is ill is a reminder of the reality and potentiality of illness that I think the majority fear and have worked to try and put out of their mind.

 

[Lark]

I do agree with the first paragraph and the second and the third

I agree with those points too, although combined with the idea of seeing therapists being a strange thing was also an authority and a powerful placebo effect too. As seeing therapists becomes more common place I think it'll be less effective, as it becomes more common, more prosaic and like with everything else people begin to be more skeptical about expertise.

The point about empathy and compassion is well made, kindness is just shockingly socially over policed, its easy to condemn and harder to commend it by the day. Which is a bad thing because most of the good, balanced, authors I've read on the topic of therapy have said that more friends, a stronger and more resilient informal support system, ie friends, family, neighbours, neighbourhood, community, society, is the answer that individual session work is not necessarily.

 

[Bush]

We're better set up than when eugenics laws were on the books and we locked up and forced-sterilized the mentally ill, but we still have a long way to go in understanding the human problems in general; let alone in creating the right infrastructure to handle them.

 

[rav3n]

There are two sides to mental illness, the individual who suffers from mental illness and the people around them who suffer. This is a social issue that needs to be addressed by governments. Better healthcare including mental healthcare so everyone benefits.

 

[Luminous]

I agree that the stigma around medication and therapy are lessening, at least at my end of the world. That's not to say there isn't judgment from other people. It's just that there's a group of people who understand, because they've been there themselves and admit to it. There are too many others who parrot the lazy idea. Snow as White summed it up very well. I think in addition to the desire to feel better than, exclusion of what's different, and fear, there's also a bitterness, an "I've worked hard all these years to get where I am; these people need to also!", and an attitude that people get what they deserve...

It's compounded by the fact that some mental illnesses aren't even obvious to the person suffering from them at the time. And there are mental effects to some physical illnesses (like autoimmune disorders). We greatly need more education and outreach.

 

[Jaguar]

Mental illness. Frankly, I think the medical establishment is so incompetent it's easier for doctors to pretend someone has mental illness (and worse, treating them with an AD) rather than correctly diagnosing their real medical problem.

 

[Qlip]

Yes, it is. Or no, whatever. Mental illness is a cultural construct. A culture, society, has values based on its survival needs and happenstance. Have a preindustrial warlike society? ADD/ADHD doesn't exist there, just a bunch of potentially really well adapted people not bothered by having to be restrained in one place and focused on one task for hours a day to live. In America we have a culture in which any cognitive slant leads to certain types of achievement, it'll get a pass. Think of how the idea applies to CEOs, politicians or the wealthy, whatever an individual might be getting up to. Are they mentally healthy? It doesn't matter, they're good.

 

[miss fortune]

I'd say that when it starts to make your life not worth living or incapable of being lived, its an illness whether it's a pre or post industrial society

I know that I have gotten to the point before where I was incapable of all but the most basic tasks... if it was a pre industrial society I'd be dependent on the community or dead. I can't think of any upsides of this that would make it an evolutionary advantage...

society is getting better, but it's not perfect yet... I mean, I could put in as disabled and get accommodations at work if I wanted, for an example

 

[rav3n]

Yes, it is. Or no, whatever. Mental illness is a cultural construct. A culture, society, has values based on its survival needs and happenstance. Have a preindustrial warlike society? ADD/ADHD doesn't exist there, just a bunch of potentially really well adapted people not bothered by having to be restrained in one place and focused on one task for hours a day to live. In America we have a culture in which any cognitive slant leads to certain types of achievement, it'll get a pass. Think of how the idea applies to CEOs, politicians or the wealthy, whatever an individual might be getting up to. Are they mentally healthy? It doesn't matter, they're good.

ADD/ADHD isn't like that at all. It can be highly destructive to any person or society since focus can't be maintained or the odd time, there's hyper-focus to the extent of zero focus for other issues. Some with harsh forms of ADD/ADHD can't complete even simple tasks or prioritize.

 

[Qlip]

ADD/ADHD isn't like that at all. It can be highly destructive to any person or society since focus can't be maintained or the odd time, there's hyper-focus to the extent of zero focus for other issues. Some with harsh forms of ADD/ADHD can't complete even simple tasks or prioritize.

I'm not claiming that there aren't real drawbacks, but only in modern industrial societies is this problem so problematic because of our focus on efficiency and productivity, and how highly precisely orchestrated everything is.

 

[prplchknz]

ADD/ADHD isn't like that at all. It can be highly destructive to any person or society since focus can't be maintained or the odd time, there's hyper-focus to the extent of zero focus for other issues. Some with harsh forms of ADD/ADHD can't complete even simple tasks or prioritize.

exactly, all illnesses are on a sliding scale someone can be high functioning while someone else isn't and the high functioning people (like me) can navigate the world enough where the low functioning people can not. But i do have periods where i'm lower functioning but over all i'm pretty high functioning. And to say that mental illness doesn't exist is negligent and completely misses the point of what it actually is.

 

[Qlip]

exactly, all illnesses are on a sliding scale someone can be high functioning while someone else isn't and the high functioning people (like me) can navigate the world enough where the low functioning people can not. But i do have periods where i'm lower functioning but over all i'm pretty high functioning. And to say that mental illness doesn't exist is negligent and completely misses the point of what it actually is.

I'm saying that societal expectations, and the world we live in, is the difference between a 'mental illness' and a 'mental difference', if you get my gist. The society and the world are different in different places in times, making for differences in what's considered 'bad' vs 'different'.

For example, a shaman in pre-agriculture societies are often by our measures, 'bat-shit crazy', have several mental disorders. In their own cultures, they're holy. Bad vs Good, or Bad vs Okay is relative, the behaviors associated with a particular cognitive slant are not.

 

[Luminous]

I'm saying that societal expectations, and the world we live in, is the difference between a 'mental illness' and a 'mental difference', if you get my gist. The society and the world are different in different places in times, making for differences in what's considered 'bad' vs 'different'.

For example, a shaman in pre-agriculture societies are often by our measures, 'bat-shit crazy', have several mental disorders. In their own cultures, they're holy. Bad vs Good, or Bad vs Okay is relative.

I get what you're saying... the judgment of society is subjective, whether objectively there is mental illness, whether the individual's life is severely negatively impacted/distressed, or not.

 

[rav3n]

I'm not claiming that there aren't real drawbacks, but only in modern industrial societies is this problem so problematic because of our focus on efficiency and productivity, and how highly precisely orchestrated everything is.

I'm saying that societal expectations, and the world we live in, is the difference between a 'mental illness' and a 'mental difference', if you get my gist. The society and the world are different in different places in times, making for differences in what's considered 'bad' vs 'different'.

For example, a shaman in pre-agriculture societies are often by our measures, 'bat-shit crazy', have several mental disorders. In their own cultures, they're holy. Bad vs Good, or Bad vs Okay is relative, the behaviors associated with a particular cognitive slant are not.

Not really. Stripping this down to primitive culture, if you get distracted from maintaining a fire at night, it will die and you too can die whether it's from freezing to death or being mauled/eaten by predators. If you can't maintain focus on the hunt, you will die of starvation. If you hyperfocus on a fire without focus on environmental conditions (dry grass and low hanging branches), you might burn down entire forests with you in it.

The ability to focus matters a great deal in any society.

 

[Qlip]

Not really. Stripping this down to primitive culture, if you get distracted from maintaining a fire at night, it will die and you too can die whether it's from freezing to death or being mauled/eaten by predators. If you can't maintain focus on the hunt, you will die of starvation. If you hyperfocus on a fire without focus on environmental conditions (dry grass and low hanging branches), you might burn down entire forests with you in it.

The ability to focus matters a great deal in any society.

Not untrue, but very hyperbolic. I've never met anybody with ADHD/ADD who don't do just well focusing on a video game (a hunt), maintaining a fire safely (camping). What they do have problems with is not disrupting classrooms and reliably finishing work tasks efficiently without stress and effort. And I've met two adult diagnosed ADHD who managed their own coping mechanisms, which would indicate that the main issue isn't whether these people are capable of completing tasks and being useful to an employer, just that the demands are really high nowadays and the price is really high personally for them.

 

[rav3n]

Not untrue, but very hyperbolic. I've never met anybody with ADHD/ADD who don't do just well focusing on a video game (a hunt), maintaining a fire safely (camping). What they do have problems with is not disrupting classrooms and reliably finishing work tasks efficiently without stress and effort. And I've met two adult diagnosed ADHD who managed their own coping mechanisms, which would indicate that the main issue isn't whether these people are capable of completing tasks and being useful to an employer, just that the demands are really high nowadays and the price is really high personally for them.

You'll often find people with ADD/ADHD hyperfocusing on video games, to the extent of insufficient focus on the balance of their lives. There's sufficient novelty in video gaming. Do they make campfires multiple times a day, every day?

Don't confuse focus on novelty with repetitive grind. Repetitive grind is problematic for people with ADD/ADHD.

That said, IMO, there are individuals who've been misdiagnosed by GPs with ADD/ADHD, who don't have it. It's also appalling to me that GPs can diagnose mental health issues and prescribe accordingly. IMO, the initial diagnosis should come from a mental health practitioner and if meds are necessarily, prescribed and monitored by a mental health practitioner until symptoms have leveled out. From there, a GP can handle the refills while ensuring that the meds aren't negatively impacting on physical health (kidney, liver functions, etc).

 

[Luminous]

. It's also appalling to me that GPs can diagnose mental health issues and prescribe accordingly. IMO, the initial diagnosis should come from a mental health practitioner and if meds are necessarily, prescribed and monitored by a mental health practitioner until symptoms have leveled out. From there, a GP can handle the refills while ensuring that the meds aren't negatively impacting on physical health (kidney, liver functions, etc).

What about when the actual issue is a physical illness that causes mental symptoms? Hope the mental care practitioner is knowledgeable enough to recognize that? (not trying to be argumentative, seriously asking)