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Psychopaths

Mind Maverick

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Honestly there are some traits in this list that I can relate to (like I'm a confident person and I've gotta admit I've got a reasonably high opinion of myself or I can be impulsive) but I never thought about killing anyone yet so I don't think I'm a psychopath lol :newwink:
So every psychopath is a murderer? Many of them carry on average lives...except the parasitic lifestyle in which they do things like manipulating pseudo-wives and daughters into forking over their money to pay their expenses since their extreme narcissism and other psychopathic traits make them unable to hold a job consistently or find any stability.

A lot of people do that: "I relate to a lot of things on this list." Often, that's used to discredit and discount that there are any valid diagnoses at all. It always turns out that they don't actually grasp the extremes that the list is talking about.
 

Yuurei

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I think you are missing out some key elements here. Psychopathy has been glammed up repeatedly and is sometimes something teen boys aspire to without realising what it actually is.

Primary it is a learning disability and the majority of psychopaths are below average intelligence. This leaves a huge gulf between the expectation of what psychopaths are capable of and what they are actually capable of. The t.v hyped psychopath is really very few and far between. Much like the autistic savant.


Edit: That was just a general comment after looking at the traits of a psychopath. On a more personal level it sounds, from the info given, that she is highly unstable and manipulative. Sociopaths are much better at this than psychopaths though I understand there is some definition changes to these labels so it's hard to separate them. But also yeah, you had a lucky escape, maybe write the friend a letter/email if you are really concerned about them?

I know this is over a year old- came to notice because it was quoted-but I have experience with this. Not only was he not very intelligence but while was in his early twenties, he very much had the sort of personality that reminded of those 15 yr old boys who like to glorify evil, but the kind of petty evil who could never aspire to be more than a minion of a real mastermind.

I once knew a socio/psychopath who was really not very intelligent at all. Figured himself some skrt of ‘mastermind’ but my God he was not. I was on to everything he did; when he lied to me, when he stole from me, when he thought he was being SO clever by contacted me pretending to someone else. When he texted my friends pretending to be he- while I was WITH her, when he secretly recorded me while I was alone. When the idiot had the balls-yet no brains- and say shit like “ People assume I’m a good person! But I’m really a total asshole!” And then, actually laugh maniacally. When a very rare copy of a game I owned went missing and he started bragging about the coly he just happened to find ect
But not just those...crimes. His emotional manipulation really needed work. It was quite pitiful. Every time I got angry at him or called him on his bullshit he’d cry about how mean I was, how much I hurt him, show up sad in a corner with Cinnabon for everyone but refuse to join us because he was just ‘ too hurt’ and ‘ didn’t want to upset me’.

To be honest, I found him only as culpable for his actions as those who fell for it. It was transparent as window glass yet it seemed I was the only one who saw through it.
 

EllevenSevenSounds

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In general I find psychopaths to be incredibly stupid. Narcissists on the other hand can be quite bright.

For the most part though, psychopaths tends to be incredibly dumb.

I think many white collar psychopaths are actually sociopaths, so I exclude the CEO's of the world that fall into this category.

Cops on the other hand are incredibly low on the IQ spectrum, not being able to find any other line of work and all, and tend to be high on the psychopath spectrum.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Psychopathy or not, I think it's safe to conclude that she was afflicted with, in the very least, severe personality and mental health disturbances and was thus incapable of committing to a stable, loving relationship.

The one positive out of this is that once you know what this type of thing looks like, you can smell it a mile away. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad you got out.
 

Norexan

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Psychopaths don't have REAL emotions while sociopaths have childish emotions.
Psychopaths usually are extremely smart people, they look like any other person in the room.
Sociopaths on another hand usually are victim of their state of mind and cannot get on the top.

And YES you cannot be psychopath if you can feel remorse when you did something wrong.
And YES you cannot become psychopath suddenly over night. You are born with lack of emotions.
And YES many psychopaths are normal people around you and not all of them are criminals.
 

Schrödinger's Name

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In general I find psychopaths to be incredibly stupid. Narcissists on the other hand can be quite bright.

For the most part though, psychopaths tends to be incredibly dumb.

I think many white collar psychopaths are actually sociopaths, so I exclude the CEO's of the world that fall into this category.

Cops on the other hand are incredibly low on the IQ spectrum, not being able to find any other line of work and all, and tend to be high on the psychopath spectrum.

There's no correlation between being a psychopath and having a low IQ. (Or I might be misinterpreting 'stupid') And how are narcissists 'bright'? They are constantly influenced by their emotions. Define bright?

Sociopaths don't exist. That term doesn't have a firm definition. People don't get diagnosed with 'psychopathy' or 'sociopathy'.

Difference Between the Psychopath and So-Called Sociopath | Psychology Today

And, psychopaths do have emotions. They are just shallow and short lived. And anger is definitely an emotion too, some of them feel that a lot.
 

Tomb1

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Psychopaths are highly skilled at imitating anger and other emotions even though they lack an internal experience of it...so, practically-speaking, a psychopath can change their performance from anger to charm in the blink of any eye depending on the goal. however, the core entity itself remains empty and calculative. This results from a deficit in empathy and conscience. This deficit is idiopathic. The sociopath behaves in similar ways as a psychopath but isn't really a psychopath. Rather, their behavior is the result of a disturbance in empathy and conscience. This disturbance is environmental. In the old days, they used to call the sociopath a pseudo-psychopath.

The Psychopath: Theory, Research, and Practice - Google Books
 

EllevenSevenSounds

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There's no correlation between being a psychopath and having a low IQ. (Or I might be misinterpreting 'stupid') And how are narcissists 'bright'? They are constantly influenced by their emotions. Define bright?

Sociopaths don't exist. That term doesn't have a firm definition. People don't get diagnosed with 'psychopathy' or 'sociopathy'.

Difference Between the Psychopath and So-Called Sociopath | Psychology Today

And, psychopaths do have emotions. They are just shallow and short lived. And anger is definitely an emotion too, some of them feel that a lot.

Sure there is. And sociopaths are people who display psychopathic tendencies but as a result of conditioning/environment, not a deformed brain.
 

EllevenSevenSounds

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Psychopaths are highly skilled at imitating anger and other emotions even though they lack an internal experience of it...so, practically-speaking, a psychopath can change their performance from anger to charm in the blink of any eye depending on the goal. however, the core entity itself remains empty and calculative. This results from a deficit in empathy and conscience. This deficit is idiopathic. The sociopath behaves in similar ways as a psychopath but isn't really a psychopath. Rather, their behavior is the result of a disturbance in empathy and conscience. This disturbance is environmental. In the old days, they used to call the sociopath a pseudo-psychopath.

The Psychopath: Theory, Research, and Practice - Google Books

Egg-zactly.

The thing is though, each successive generation tends to show less empathy and psychopathic tendencies as a result of lower levels of socialization - meaning that that description alone may now actually apply to the majority of people.
 

Mind Maverick

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There's no correlation between being a psychopath and having a low IQ. (Or I might be misinterpreting 'stupid') And how are narcissists 'bright'? They are constantly influenced by their emotions. Define bright?
This ^
I mean, when you pull up statistics and studies and the best anyone gives is "yuh-huh," or "because my experience" it's sort of hard to take anything else seriously. What, do you study them for a living? Has your experience conducted any real research? The experiences of the guys who have done so is more dependable, I'd say.
 

EllevenSevenSounds

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There is a correlation between iq and psychopaths. There are two tiers. Dumb psychopaths and average psychopaths but there are no genius psychopaths because that requires a fully developed pre frontal cortex, abscent from the psychopath.

- - - Updated - - -

There is a correlation between iq and psychopaths. There are two tiers. Dumb psychopaths and average psychopaths but there are no genius psychopaths because that requires a fully developed pre frontal cortex, abscent from the psychopath.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Firstly, clarification on terminology:

Article: Sociopath: Definition, vs. Psychopath, Test, Traits, and Symptoms
healthline said:
There’s no clinical difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. These terms are both used to refer to people with ASPD. They’re often used interchangeably.

Secondly, neurological definitions.
James Fallon, Ph.D. neuroscientist, researcher on psychopaths. Owner of a psychopathically structured brain, but relatively nice guy albeit 'different'. He has done extensive brain imaging of large populations related to the topic.



All following quotes are from this article A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret : NPR


scan-9eadb03cb830f9e86eaed73cac9f416d4ff33882-s600-c85.jpg

Fallon said:
Fallon's brain (on the right) has dark patches in the orbital cortex, the area just behind the eyes. This is the area that Fallon and other scientists say is involved with ethical behavior, moral decision-making and impulse control. The normal scan on the left is his son's.
...
Fallon says the orbital cortex puts a brake on another part of the brain called the amygdala, which is involved with aggression and appetites. But in some people, there's an imbalance -- the orbital cortex isn't doing its job -- perhaps because the person had a brain injury or was born that way.

Fallon said:
And that brings us to the next part of Jim Fallon's family experiment. Along with brain scans, Fallon also tested each family member's DNA for genes that are associated with violence. He looked at 12 genes related to aggression and violence and zeroed in on the MAO-A gene (monoamine oxidase A). This gene, which has been the target of considerable research, is also known as the "warrior gene" because it regulates serotonin in the brain. Serotonin affects your mood -- think Prozac -- and many scientists believe that if you have a certain version of the warrior gene, your brain won't respond to the calming effects of serotonin.

Fallon calls up another slide on his computer. It has a list of family members' names, and next to them, the results of the genotyping. Everyone in his family has the low-aggression variant of the MAO-A gene, except for one person.
 

Mind Maverick

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There is a correlation between iq and psychopaths. There are two tiers. Dumb psychopaths and average psychopaths but there are no genius psychopaths because that requires a fully developed pre frontal cortex, abscent from the psychopath.

Okay, sure...but can you back it up with credible resources? I mean, I'm all for anything countering my own research if it's more credible, but thus far I'm not seeing anything.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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There is a correlation between iq and psychopaths. There are two tiers. Dumb psychopaths and average psychopaths but there are no genius psychopaths because that requires a fully developed pre frontal cortex, abscent from the psychopath.

- - - Updated - - -

There is a correlation between iq and psychopaths. There are two tiers. Dumb psychopaths and average psychopaths but there are no genius psychopaths because that requires a fully developed pre frontal cortex, abscent from the psychopath.

Indeed. Most organized serial killers like Bundy were bright but not gifted. Typically they could outsmart people with less intelligence, including a lot of local law enforcement types, but usually it was the really intelligent and gifted profilers and detectives who were able to easily see through their facades.


But the danger with bright psychopaths is that they are usually able to fool most people of average intelligence. The high charisma they have allows them to overcompensate for their above average but not genius level IQs, so they can even appear more gifted than they really are. It's interesting to see how Bundy's course as a killer followed his failures in law school. He was never really intelligent enough to be a lawyer, and this really fucked with his ego. Even at his trial, he had some people fooled into thinking he was a legal whiz kid, even his sentencing judge noting he could've been a fine lawyer had he taken a different track in life. But I think the reality is that he was never lawyer or politician material, he just built that image up around his persona. As it became clear he wasn't that person he wanted to be, it's interesting that his killing methods also became increasingly sloppy and careless. It's like the disintegration of his ego coincided with his spiral downward from organized killer to sloppy spree killer. Every time he was "figured out" by those close ones he'd fooled, he would flee to another city and attempt to rebuild his persona and ego, usually masquerading as a law student each time.

I think it's similar with sociopaths like John Gotti and Donald Trump. Both of them have easily fooled a lot of average people. Gotti probably still has a handful of supporters who to this day would testify he was a man of the people and wrongfully tried.


Gacy, who I think probably had an above average IQ, also roleplayed and imagined himself as a sort of hardened detective, using that as a cover to get young male drifters to get in his car. He too became increasingly sloppy as his imagined persona began to deteriorate.


damn I wish I'd been gifted enough to become a profiler. This stuff has always fascinated me.
 

Mind Maverick

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Firstly, clarification on terminology:

Article: Sociopath: Definition, vs. Psychopath, Test, Traits, and Symptoms


Secondly, neurological definitions.
James Fallon, Ph.D. neuroscientist, researcher on psychopaths. Owner of a psychopathically structured brain, but relatively nice guy albeit 'different'. He has done extensive brain imaging of large populations related to the topic.



All following quotes are from this article A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret : NPR


scan-9eadb03cb830f9e86eaed73cac9f416d4ff33882-s600-c85.jpg

This is really interesting to me, because the amygdala is also associated with threat perception, and in those with Borderline Personality Disorder it's the same: overactive amygdala, underactive prefrontal cortex which would typically be what puts the brakes on the amygdala, as stated here.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Here's a thought for those who are certain based on (?) that psychopaths are never genius level. Perhaps the genius ones never get caught? You are basing all of your reasoning on the ones who were caught and identified as such. This is perhaps a subset of all psychopaths.
 

Yuurei

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Here's a thought for those who are certain based on (?) that psychopaths are never genius level. Perhaps the genius ones never get caught? You are basing all of your reasoning on the ones who were caught and identified as such. This is perhaps a subset of all psychopaths.

Nope. I was aware of what ‘my’ psychopath was up to but somehow no one else was and he has never suffered any consequences afaik.

The police were absolutely unhelpful and only told me ‘ impersonation is not illegal’, uh yeah, it definitly is.

But maybe it could be said that he assumed he was so brilliant, nit because he was, but because everyone around him ( besides myself) was just so miserably stupid.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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@Yuu
I'm sorry you have had to deal with that and my comment is abstract, general, and not particularly intended to apply to any one individual's experience. It likely has nothing to do with the person you know. I don't think that person is a genius.

My concern is that when people hold 'genius' or 'high level intelligence' as a personalized value, and also look down on violent psychopaths (understandably I do too), that it creates a bias that assumes they cannot posses the valued trait. So far no one is providing any data from populations to support the idea that genius and psychopathy are mutually exclusive traits. It isn't meant as a personal attack to dismiss any painful experience that any specific person has had in their life, but it is an important question to examine in an impersonal, detached manner.

edit: To be clear- I'm not suggesting intelligence and psychopathy are correlated, but that the two are not positively or negatively correlated unless there is something definitive to show it is the case.
 

Betty Blue

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This is actually false. There is no statistically significant difference between the average population and that of a psychopath in terms of intelligence. The only statistically significant difference was in interpersonal facets.

Frontiers | Facets of Psychopathy, Intelligence, and Aggressive Antisocial Behaviors in Young Violent Offenders | Psychology

Are Psychopaths Really Smarter Than the Rest of Us? | Psychology Today

No, you misunderstood me. I was not specifically talking about intelligence, which is hotly debated in terms of what it is and how you actually measure it but that's another matter. The point I was making is that it is a learning disability. You can score pretty highly on intelligence tests and still have a learning disability. Psychopathy by definition is a learning disability because psychopaths do not feel empathy and that poses a great deal of misunderstanding and challenges in a learning environment and society as a whole.

The first article you cited is particular to young violent offenders so I'm not really considering it as relevant to the overall picture. The second is interesting but related to intelligence testing rather than learning disabilities.
 

Earl Grey

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I've known 2 people with NPD and... Might want to go into detail what 'intelligent' here means. Both are as dumb as rocks and can't stand a chance against me in a debate, but one (A) is VERY street smart, and the other (B) VERY people smart. The street smart one was the more subdued, pathetic snivelly guilt trippy kind 'HELP ME I'M PURE I'M A VICTIM I'VE BEEN WRONGED', and the people smart one was the very charming pathological liar.

People I know, who also know B, describe him as 'very intelligent', 'articulate'. B is very skilled at appearing faux smart, unless the person they are talking to start poking holes and digging deeper- which, most don't. He knew which words to say, he knows which people he could hook in without them asking many questions, and if the veneer starts cracking, he knows how to gloss (with BS) in such a way that it looks like he still knows what he's saying. The craziest mind boggling part was that once those mutual friends met me they said I sounded like HIM. I found out that he was copying ME- how I think and how I word things, but since he doesn't have the real deal, poking at him has him fall apart FAST. That was a strange, strange thing that happened.

In a drunken (?) (he sounded drunk) stupor, he admitted he WAS copying me, because he realized how much attention and ego-stroking that got him. I was in a mix of fascination and utter befuddlement; he was both smart enough and dumb enough to do such a thing. He also can appear confident and authoritative, which I am guessing was also something he artificially did or even, copied from someone else, he even could act quite convincingly like certain... Celebrity figures, god knows how or why. But really, once you crack him he either goes pathetic-snivelly like A, or 'HOW DARE YOU UNMASK ME' and would actually go physically violent. These people are in actuality extremely fragile.


EDIT: Oya. And about person A, the reason they come across as 'smart' (superficially) is because they know who to snivel to, and how.
I make it sound pathetic, but their methodology sadly works. It at the very least is very successful, so if you want to use that as some parameter of intelligence, there you go. But I'm thinking the reason these folks (ASPD included) widely appear as 'smart' is because if someone can outmaneuver you easily, they can easily appear 'smart', even if intellectually speaking, they might not be. People widely call A & B smart but their brains are made of mush. One sobs their way out of anything, the other charms their way out of anything, but same idea.
 
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