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  1. #1
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    Default The Push - Netflix Special on Social Compliance to Extremes

    The Push is a Netflix Documentary where people are in a social compliance experiment if the people are chosen to commit murder.



    There are other experiments such as the Milgram experiment where people are pressured to comply and hurt those behind in the other room out of sheer obedience for authority by pressing a simple button.

    I watched it this morning and I am really in awe of how the experiment went from finish to end. There were 4 in total in this experiment.

    Spoiler warning on result if they committed "murder" conveniently placed under spoiler tags who don't care to watch.



    The show ultimately does warn about social compliance and how we as humans can easily be misled and manipulated and coerced into it. Anyone who has taken or studied social psychology, has known that peer group pressure and people following authoritative action to things that wouldn't be considered in line with their personal values and personality. (So yes you too Fi users, can be at risk for being manipulated)

    Thoughts about this?

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    First of Her Name Lyra.I's Avatar
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    ohhh this looks interesting, i may check it out. I actually happen to know quite a bit about the Milgram experiment, i had to make an assignment on it last semester :3 I'd say the more people are aware of just how susceptible they are to blindly following authority, the better. Because that makes them kinda less likely to do it the next time when they encounter a situation of this sort

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    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Well, few ppl really tried the limits of their own morality, so they generally do lip service to the rules but don't have real overarching ethics. So when things conflict (like : follow the authority figure vs what should be a non aggression principle ) appeals to authority often win against an ethics that they don't really have - but rather acted like they had via social mimetism.

    I mean 15% of ppl can't read a bus schedule, so how can we expect even 50% of ppl to have an actual advanced understanding of ethics or the ability to formulate their own coherent code of ethics.

    It's really, ego shattering to discover our own immorality when push comes to shove, most people don't want to face that and never put themselves in situation chaotic enough so that they would have to discover this about themselves.

    A somewhat imperfect but really interesting concept around that idea is Kohlberg's stages of development, most adults range from stage 2 to 4. Which is fine if you live in a society based on universal ethics with impersonal law (as western societies originally were) but becomes a real problem if these ppl are brought up in inhumane regimes (nazi germany, saudi arabia etc.)

    Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
    1. Obedience and punishment orientation
    (How can I avoid punishment?)

    2. Self-interest orientation
    (What's in it for me?)
    (Paying for a benefit)

    Level 2 (Conventional)

    3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
    (Social norms)
    (The good boy/girl attitude)

    4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
    (Law and order morality)

    Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

    5. Social contract orientation

    6. Universal ethical principles
    (Principled conscience)


    According to Kohlberg, many individuals never progress beyond Level II. He sees the stages of moral development as closely tied to Piaget's stages of cognitive development, and only if a person has achieved the later stages of formal operational thought is he capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary for postconventional morality at Level III. The highest stage of moral development (Level III, stage 6) requires formulating abstract ethical principles and conforming to them to avoid self-condemnation. Kohlberg reports that less than 10 percent of his subjects over age 16 show (...) kind of "clear-principled" Stage 6 thinking (...)"
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  5. #5
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    I might come back to this with a lot more detail.

    But initially I am (to a certain level) aware of this kind of danger and I am also prescient of the fact that my personality (non-typologically) is prone to this kind of compliance. To combat this takes a great deal of personal effort and investment towards training myself to recognise it as it arises and turn that into a habit during relevent contexts.

    This is right up my street in any case, thanks, I'll be giving this a look when I get a bit more time.
    Likes EcK liked this post

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    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I find it an important wake up call on several points.

    - People are easily manipulated. It's part of their nature. No one is immune to this. It takes a LOT of introspection, critical thinking, and active thought exercises to push yourself even somewhat outside of this. There is nothing easier than lying to another human being. It takes effort to protect yourself against the lies and manipulation of the world--from totally harmless lies like telling some kid that drawing looks great even if you don't think so but it is objectively great for them, to seemingly harmless lies like infomercials for products that don't work like they say, to the insidious David Avocado Wolfe style where a simple funny meme can turn into manipulations of fearmongering and deception to sell products and seminars and force people to change their entire lives. We all manipulate those around us.. Some for the good and some not so much. It is part of humanity, for the good or ugly of it.

    - People aren't inherently evil or bad people because they were manipulated--but they are weak. The people doing the shock-em-til-they-die experiments are not bad people... they just aren't strong willed ones. That + the point above is a recipe for disaster. This accounts for much of society actually. It's why the bystander effect is such a thing.

    - If you think you are immune to this, you're dead fucking wrong. Maybe you wouldn't shock someone to death--but if you can think of one single time in your life where someone manipulated you, or your emotions, to get their ends met, you can easily see you are not immune. It's REALLY easy to say "I'd just stand up and say NO!" and, with the sweep of your hand holding a get-out-of-humanity-free monopoly card, dismiss everyone as bunch of jerkwads. It is a whole other thing to be there dealing with it. Any maybe you are that rare bird that instinctively knows just the right things to say or do in the moment.. but if you've ever thought of the witty comeback AFTER the moment has passed, you too are subjected to only truly knowing what is going on with time.

    - Know where you stand with issues--any issues. With others, people, life... think about it. Assess yourself and what you know and where you are, and go actively seaching for information.. It is within these exercises that we learn what we are truly capable of doing.
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  7. #7
    First of Her Name Lyra.I's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    A somewhat imperfect but really interesting concept around that idea is Kohlberg's stages of development, most adults range from stage 2 to 4. Which is fine if you live in a society based on universal ethics with impersonal law (as western societies originally were) but becomes a real problem if these ppl are brought up in inhumane regimes (nazi germany, saudi arabia etc.)

    Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
    1. Obedience and punishment orientation
    (How can I avoid punishment?)

    2. Self-interest orientation
    (What's in it for me?)
    (Paying for a benefit)

    Level 2 (Conventional)

    3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
    (Social norms)
    (The good boy/girl attitude)

    4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
    (Law and order morality)

    Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

    5. Social contract orientation

    6. Universal ethical principles
    (Principled conscience)

    According to Kohlberg, many individuals never progress beyond Level II. He sees the stages of moral development as closely tied to Piaget's stages of cognitive development, and only if a person has achieved the later stages of formal operational thought is he capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary for postconventional morality at Level III. The highest stage of moral development (Level III, stage 6) requires formulating abstract ethical principles and conforming to them to avoid self-condemnation. Kohlberg reports that less than 10 percent of his subjects over age 16 show (...) kind of "clear-principled" Stage 6 thinking (...)"
    Wow we really need to be more introspective as a society *-* This is kind of surprising because being clear on my values and sense of morality is so important to me.

    i read up a bit on the levels and there's some things under stage 6 that i particularly relate to a LOT-
    { "Right is defined by the decision of conscience in accord with self-chosen ethical principles appealing to logical comprehensiveness, universality and consistency. These principles are abstract and ethical (the golden rule) and are not concrete moral rules like the Ten Commandments. At heart, these are universal principles of justice, of the reciprocity and equality of human rights, and of respect for the dignity of human beings as individual persons."
    The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
    }

    It's really simple, a lot of people may think of it as a given but not many have internalized it enough to really apply it in their lives. I guess this approach can be vulnerable to the differences in how each individual subjectively sees things, considering there can't really be objective morality. Though we can still get somewhat close to achieving an objective right/wrong for ourselves anyway, if we set a base line to jump off from, like seeing general well-being as a priority. Like for me, it is "nothing is wrong as long as you don't hurt someone or rob them of their integrity" which of course has it's exceptions depending on situational nuances, adding much more to the "wrong" list (like robbing someone literally lol) but it provides a good outline still.

  8. #8
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Lyra2~ View Post
    Wow we really need to be more introspective as a society *-* This is kind of surprising because being clear on my values and sense of morality is so important to me.

    i read up a bit on the levels and there's some things under stage 6 that i particularly relate to a LOT-
    { "Right is defined by the decision of conscience in accord with self-chosen ethical principles appealing to logical comprehensiveness, universality and consistency. These principles are abstract and ethical (the golden rule) and are not concrete moral rules like the Ten Commandments. At heart, these are universal principles of justice, of the reciprocity and equality of human rights, and of respect for the dignity of human beings as individual persons."
    The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
    }

    It's really simple, a lot of people may think of it as a given but not many have internalized it enough to really apply it in their lives. I guess this approach can be vulnerable to the differences in how each individual subjectively sees things, considering there can't really be objective morality. Though we can still get somewhat close to achieving an objective right/wrong for ourselves anyway, if we set a base line to jump off from, like seeing general well-being as a priority. Like for me, it is "nothing is wrong as long as you don't hurt someone or rob them of their integrity" which of course has it's exceptions depending on situational nuances, adding much more to the "wrong" list (like robbing someone literally lol) but it provides a good outline still.
    Well that's the thing, western societies like the USA were at the root - I think - stage 4 societies set up based on stage 5 and 6 morals.
    So this type of society will tend to help 'drag up' ppl who would tend to fall into stage 2 into stage 3 etc.

    Now the issue with that is that lots of ppl will essentially 'parrot' these universal ethics without understanding them. ie: "we shouldn't hurt others without cause" - why ? - "because.. feelings" - this type of miscaracterization of universal ethics code can quickly degenerate into "he hurt my feelings so I can hurt him physically" or "We can go hurt these ppl because we don't agree with them".
    Which explains why many ppl who seem at the surface level to aspire to universal ethics in fact don't. The universal principle is a cultural 'skin deep layer' while their actual moral drives are at an often much lower stage (usually stage 2-3 probably for SJW types)

    now to be fair kolhberg's stages are not perfect, the reality is that a stage is more like 'your default / dominant ethical drive behind your actions' rather than something ppl will always consistently do as we have other drives / needs etc. So even a stage 6 individual will tend to have issue applying stage 6 morality in situation where say his children's lives are at risk.

    I'm a solid stage 6 as an adult - for example - and were at stage 5 during my teenage years. but if you told me 'let 2 kids die or save your own child' I would still save my own child. So there are other factors influencing this type of moral decisions. of course.
    Now the trick is that ppl don't generally understand what universal ethics is , any child can come up with 'ppl shouldn't be hungry' - so it's a better term to say 'universalizable ethics'.

    ie : to give a simple example anyone would agree with - murder canno't be a universalisable code of ethics. because if ppl thought murder was a good, it wouldn't be murder. Just like if you think theft is something positive, it would be voluntary, theft by definition cannot be voluntary. So universal code of ethics are the ones that are universalisably applicable without being self defeating.
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    George Orwell

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well, few ppl really tried the limits of their own morality, so they generally do lip service to the rules but don't have real overarching ethics. So when things conflict (like : follow the authority figure vs what should be a non aggression principle ) appeals to authority often win against an ethics that they don't really have - but rather acted like they had via social mimetism.

    I mean 15% of ppl can't read a bus schedule, so how can we expect even 50% of ppl to have an actual advanced understanding of ethics or the ability to formulate their own coherent code of ethics.

    It's really, ego shattering to discover our own immorality when push comes to shove, most people don't want to face that and never put themselves in situation chaotic enough so that they would have to discover this about themselves.

    A somewhat imperfect but really interesting concept around that idea is Kohlberg's stages of development, most adults range from stage 2 to 4. Which is fine if you live in a society based on universal ethics with impersonal law (as western societies originally were) but becomes a real problem if these ppl are brought up in inhumane regimes (nazi germany, saudi arabia etc.)

    Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
    1. Obedience and punishment orientation
    (How can I avoid punishment?)

    2. Self-interest orientation
    (What's in it for me?)
    (Paying for a benefit)

    Level 2 (Conventional)

    3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
    (Social norms)
    (The good boy/girl attitude)

    4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
    (Law and order morality)

    Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

    5. Social contract orientation

    6. Universal ethical principles
    (Principled conscience)
    What would be the minimum stage of development that would be required for ppl to not push the button?
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  10. #10
    Softserve Ice Cream Agent Washington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's REALLY easy to say "I'd just stand up and say NO!" and, with the sweep of your hand holding a get-out-of-humanity-free monopoly card, dismiss everyone as bunch of jerkwads.
    I'm just going to quote this one because the rest are quite on point, but I don't care to differentiate between 'weak' and 'bad', when the end results are the same. Is this part about be, because of what I specifically wrote earlier in the thread?
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