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  1. #41
    I'm too sad for pants. Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    He has an impish smile, his eyes twinkle, he looks like a little kid having candy and being pleased about it. So it is easy to know he really likes it and hadn't been expecting to. And he continues drinking it with the little impish twinkle and smile.
    Ha-ha. Good description! I would not have been able to describe it this well if I'd tried.

    And yeah, most of the time reading nonverbal cues actually helps me navigate the interpersonal world. Effectively, far more often than not. (There's always the danger of being 'that person' who reads what isn't there, who hasn't cultivated the ability to hear how their impression might be inaccurate, and who senselessly blasts others with what's essentially their own baggage. It happens. I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here. I guess it even feels a bit pretentious to say that reading nonverbal cues effectively helps me more often than not. But even if my batting average isn't immaculate, it's still the truth - it helps me avoid senseless conflict far more often than not. And although I find it exhausting to deal with people who get me wrong, I also find it exhausting to deal with people who can't pick up on any nonverbal cues from me at all. Nonverbal communication *is* important to me.)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #42
    I'm too sad for pants. Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    But Phil was looking at the larger man when he did that, albeit with a flickering submissive gaze and head tilt. Also, the slight smile at the very end. It's like putting an excerpt into context, that creates the non-verbal dialogue.
    Well this is probably my e5 avarice talking - but I have been someone who has given that sort of dismissive nod/response while looking right at someone, and for me it's more like "I've got 99 things on my mind and your whole dramedy reaction to not getting coffee/liking green tea latte after all just isn't making the cut" than "I told you so."

    My only point is, I think there's a bit of wiggle room on that specific observable reaction. But there is a solid ballpark (annoyance) of nonverbal communication happening there.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #43
    Phase-shifted beam Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    What I liked about this clip as an example though (the part that starts at :56) is that the guy's reaction to the latte is a very clear and pronounced example of nonverbal communication. I want to say that most people will see the internal dialogue I described when watching him, and I feel confident saying "most" would be accurate, but to be on the safe side I said "more people than not." But it's very clear. I mean no offense to @Coriolis when I say this: I think discussing it further with anyone who sees it as an irrational leap would be akin to pursuing an argument about the existence of "red" with someone who is colorblind.
    I do trust that you are not including me in the highlighted, as I said nothing of the sort. I would not claim it is irrational, merely something I am not good at. In fact, I asked how you do it, as in: if it is in fact a rational process, it can be explained, and learned, even perhaps by an INTJ.

    How do you know that you are correct in your assessment here? How often do you turn out to be wrong? What are usually the consequences when you are wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Edit:Re nonverbal communication in general, I find it extremely important and go off of those cues a lot, and it hasn't really failed me that I can think of? You can tell when people are impatient or put out, or getting anxious or worried, and so on. Of course you have to factor individual differences and personalities as well, as specific expressions may differ slightly from one person to the next. But people generally share the same or similar facial tics, eye movements, etc, for different underlying emotions. Some people may hide all of this well so little shows, some are intentionally totally open books, and everything in between.
    Assuming I can tell such things, or at least think I can. What am I supposed to do about it? IME if it was important enough to the person, they would have said something. Obviously, they have chosen to override the impatience and wait rather than speak up to hurry things along; or have chosen to keep the worry to themselves rather than to confide it. That is their choice, and it is not for me to call them out on it. I can tell you one thing that makes me quickly lose respect for someone is when they make such assumptions about me and act on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Lawyer :"That accusation has no basis."

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    Coriolis :"Did I miss something? The prisoner was silent all the time. I can't unders-tatat-- """"404 CANNOT COMPUTE ....

    You were doing OK until you referenced Windows in the spoiler. I wouldn't be caught dead running any of that, at least on my own computers.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Assuming I can tell such things, or at least think I can. What am I supposed to do about it? IME if it was important enough to the person, they would have said something. Obviously, they have chosen to override the impatience and wait rather than speak up to hurry things along; or have chosen to keep the worry to themselves rather than to confide it. That is their choice, and it is not for me to call them out on it. I can tell you one thing that makes me quickly lose respect for someone is when they make such assumptions about me and act on them.
    I hear you, regarding the person making a choice not to verbalize something, and just showing via body language. And the person observing that then makes a choice whether to take it into account to then adjust their own behavior, words, or whatnot, or to ignore it. I'll say for me it depends on the situation; I'll sometimes adjust because I notice how they appear to be feeling, but sometimes I'll totally ignore it because I tend to have a somewhat low tolerance, especially as I grow older, for people who rely on just non-verbal to try to 'signal' something -- it can sometimes be super passive aggressive, or I just think they're being childish and if they actually want to address something, I'll wait for them to bring it up. But anyway, bottom line is it's information, and I definitely notice it and take it into account. I also think non-verbal can be a very meaningful way for loved ones to connect, or people to connect who know each other very well - so it's by no means only a negative slant, there's all sorts of positive elements to it too (I know you're not saying otherwise / didn't bring that up, I'm just adding that as I just thought of it).
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I'd be very interested to hear if anyone here outside of INTJs (no offense, INTJs) thinks my impression of that guy's reaction is any kind of irrational leap.
    My INTJ best friend is remarkably skilled at picking up on nonverbal cues... Just not the best at picking up on the far reaching implications (that's where I become his "voice of reason" in interpersonal matters). He came from a big family.

    Another INTJ acquaintance is a senior-level employee at a big corporation... she's pretty balanced with reading social cues and being very business-minded.

    They would have probably reached similar conclusions to you. It's not a type thing really.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I do trust that you are not including me in the highlighted, as I said nothing of the sort. I would not claim it is irrational, merely something I am not good at. In fact, I asked how you do it, as in: if it is in fact a rational process, it can be explained, and learned, even perhaps by an INTJ.

    How do you know that you are correct in your assessment here? How often do you turn out to be wrong? What are usually the consequences when you are wrong?


    Assuming I can tell such things, or at least think I can. What am I supposed to do about it? IME if it was important enough to the person, they would have said something. Obviously, they have chosen to override the impatience and wait rather than speak up to hurry things along; or have chosen to keep the worry to themselves rather than to confide it. That is their choice, and it is not for me to call them out on it. I can tell you one thing that makes me quickly lose respect for someone is when they make such assumptions about me and act on them.
    I observe, confirm/deny by asking, compare it to past behaviors and such. In my mind, there's always some sort of baseline based on my lifetime of people-watching, experiences, observations and then I tailor any incoming information to each person. For example, in the clip, it appears the guy is enjoying the tea because his reaction immediately changes as he keeps drinking. At first, he seemed disappointed about not getting coffee and hesitant in trying the new drink. But then he's smiling big as he's drinking the tea. The most plausible answer is the change in expression was caused by the enjoyment of tea... Of course, there are other possibilities of lesser relevance but this is the most probable.

    I see that there is a skepticism because there are no absolute truths in human behaviors, but at the heart of it, it's pattern recognition and interpretation of the data. The interpretation is only as good as the observer's connection to reality and baseline of experiences. Factoring in biases and projections is just part of the margin of error when it comes to analyzing people.


    On another note, I will comment on a subtle change in someone's emotional energy and he/she will sometimes adamantly deny it but then a few weeks later, they often will admit to what's bothering them.
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  7. #47
    Phase-shifted beam Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consilience View Post
    I see that there is a skepticism because there are no absolute truths in human behaviors, but at the heart of it, it's pattern recognition and interpretation of the data. The interpretation is only as good as the observer's connection to reality and baseline of experiences. Factoring in biases and projections is just part of the margin of error when it comes to analyzing people.
    The highlighted is all well and good, provided it reaches a certain level of consistency such that one can have reasonable (not 100% but fairly high) confidence in one's conclusions. Much of my skepticism is rooted in two recurring patterns that I personally experience: (1) people are often incorrect when they attempt to determine my intentions or feelings from nonverbal cues; and (2) most people are probably much better at doing this than I am. Combined, this means if other people often (> 50%) guess me wrong, and I will do worse than they do, my confidence level is bound to be very low. Hence better to take what someone says at face value, and adjust later if needed.
    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. ~ Buddha

  8. #48
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    In deep meditation our self talk ceases, and we are left with non verbal communication with others and with ourselves. It is beautiful and frightening at first because we feel naked without our talk and our self talk, but in deep meditation we can swap the beauty of words with the beauty of shapes and moving shapes.

  9. #49
    Terpsichore Abcdenfp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consilience View Post
    To be honest, I think there are general guidelines for a majority of people but with each individual, there are unique baselines and subtleties and it can take a little while to get the big picture. I am skeptical of those who rely mainly on nonverbal cues. I know that I tend to run into many issues with those who claim to be good at picking up on nonverbal cues because they can pick up on the changes in nonverbal cues but I often feel like I have to defend myself as to why I am acting a certain way because they are relying way too heavily on "nonverbal cues" and dismiss what I am saying like they know me better than myself. Example: Not answering something. For person 1, they could be absent-minded. For person 2, they could be passive aggressive. For person 3, something could be upsetting them irrelevant to the situation. For person 4, they didn't perceive it as important/don't understand.
    i totally understand where you are coming from with this and i have actually been guilty of doing just that in the past. i leaned to heavily on non verbal cues and what i felt someone was meaning from my intuition. it took an istp to say to me if your not sure ask, you are making alot of assumptions and not taking what i am saying to you at face value, if i say it i mean it, no more no less.
    Now i definetly ask questions before relying on non verbal cues .. doesnt mean i dont recognize or acknowledge them anymore i just follow them up and listen to the verbal cues that follow.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdenfp View Post
    i totally understand where you are coming from with this and i have actually been guilty of doing just that in the past. i leaned to heavily on non verbal cues and what i felt someone was meaning from my intuition. it took an istp to say to me if your not sure ask, you are making alot of assumptions and not taking what i am saying to you at face value, if i say it i mean it, no more no less.
    Now i definetly ask questions before relying on non verbal cues .. doesnt mean i dont recognize or acknowledge them anymore i just follow them up and listen to the verbal cues that follow.
    Yes. I am pretty similar in my approach. I remain open to what they are telling me but if things don't add up, I still keep my first impressions in the back of my head. Asking just helps to give more context.

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