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  1. #21
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    OP has never had a girlfriend.


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  2. #22
    Complex paradigm Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Comparing our everyday interactions to a comedy routine is like comparing a shopping list to a poem. Going through the day analyzing everything for subtext the way we had to analyze poems in school would be incredibly frustrating and tiring -- and inefficient. I have no objection to considering someone else's state of mind, but to consider it I have to know it with reasonable accuracy. The only way I can do that is through direct verbal explanation or confirmation. Otherwise I am just grasping at straws.

    This was exactly my thought on that post.
    However this kind of thinking is exactly why the world looks as it looks, since calling spade a spade is considered to be rude/wrong.

  3. #23
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    I think women prefer non verbal communication for the sake of dodging direct quotable accountability, as has been their prerogative for centuries, but in overpursuing the ruin of men with whom they regret having sex with they went and shot themselves in the foot. Men, smart men in particular, have no trouble absorbing accountability for a woman’s own actions and problems (when in doubt boys, just apologize), but now that those apologies come with a potential life ruining lawsuit thanks to off the rails feminism, men are thinking twice before blindly accepting responsibility for everything. Sorry ladies, but if you want your cake you’re going to have to put on your big girl panties and use your words before you get to eat it.

  4. #24
    Mastermind Fieldmarshal Sacrophagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have no objection to considering someone else's state of mind, but to consider it I have to know it with reasonable accuracy. The only way I can do that is through direct verbal explanation or confirmation. Otherwise I am just grasping at straws.

    **Someone laying on the ground, bleeding with a knife in their stomach**

    Coriolis: Are you okay?

    A-person-bleeding-to-death: Oh, I'm perfectly fine! **Thumbs up**

    Coriolis: I just wanted to confirm your situation.

    ---
    Jokes aside.
    Without non-verbal communication, I don't know if you're serious or being funny either, and now, I think I might need to confirm that.



    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    I think women prefer non verbal communication for the sake of dodging direct quotable accountability, as has been their prerogative for centuries, but in overpursuing the ruin of men with whom they regret having sex with they went and shot themselves in the foot. Men, smart men in particular, have no trouble absorbing accountability for a woman’s own actions and problems (when in doubt boys, just apologize), but now that those apologies come with a potential life ruining lawsuit thanks to off the rails feminism, men are thinking twice before blindly accepting responsibility for everything. Sorry ladies, but if you want your cake you’re going to have to put on your big girl panties and use your words before you get to eat it.
    I agree with you in holding others accountable when it is a matter of important decisions. Letting them choose for themselves and actually come up with words to confirm what they really want.

    Nonetheless, there are many situations where forcing the other person to express themselves verbally is completely counter-productive, depending on the circumstances.
    In a business setting for example, it is all about decisions, and everyone should be able to contribute with their verbal/written input.
    In an intimate setting, on the other hand, you should be able to read the atmosphere. Your wife shouldn't have to to tell you she desires you, while obviously her longing is all painted over her face, her softer than usual tone of voice, and her open body language.

    Sometimes women or men can't bring themselves to ask for something they want because they're afraid of rejection, and they'd rather protect their feelings. That translates into an afraid, perplexed, and hesitant body language. So what? We're going to blame them for that because they can't put that into words?

    In Coriolis' case, it comes to mind that most NTJs' abyssal fear is losing control. By assuming they can keep track of everything by simply receiving crystal clear verbatim data to work with, they think they have control unconscious of their own shortcomings, until reality hits them in the butt. That same fear of losing control is why we are long-term planners, always a step ahead.

    This reminds me of emotionally numb men dumped by their women, men who have nothing to say in the end except "But, I thought everything was great!", because the poor bastards were relying on words alone. Verbal communication is not everyone's forte. Not everyone is good in eloquently expressing their feelings word in word out. She was frustrated by you, she told you once, she told you twice, she was afraid to hurt you, but you couldn't see that. It's not your fault, nor her fault, it's just that both of you speak different languages.

    Throw away the jetsam in your mind, and accept it wholeheartedly. Non-verbal communication is actually an uncoerced expression, an available information which you receive for free without asking for it. It is essential, if not to you, it is for others, and by discarding it as a grotesque nescience, you're just reinforcing the reoccuring patterns in your life, in which you'll always seem completely far away from the reality of things in social situations.

    Don't blame others if you hear them saying "Get a clue!" over and over again.
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  5. #25
    Poking the poodle Frosty's Avatar
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    Non verbal communication I think is important in that it gives you a good foundation to work off when it comes to verbal communication. If someone acts like they are angry, that can direct me to further exploring why by asking them for example.

    If someones body language is different than what they are saying- if they seem angry but are acting happy- Ill probably take them at their word- trust is important- but if Im closer to them I might point out what Im thinking/the discrepancy and why Im confused.

    I cant say that I wouldnt take into account that someones body language contradicts what they are saying to me, and I might make assumptions about that- but for the most part, unless somethings super obviously directed at me- well... there are tons of reasons a discrepancy might exist- maybe they are mad about something that doesnt convern me.

    Or maybe they are mad at me. I usually just ask if I suspect that to be the case. Its easier than like playing the game of ‘whats going on with them’, just asking.
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  6. #26
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    I'm all for everybody expressing themselves clearly and verbally, if only everybody was on board. Unfortunately, with almost any kind of relationship, accepting and pushing forward on a reluctant "yes" can lead to a future of resentment and inertia. And while one does meet the odd person who can be clear with their intents and desires, it's rare, and using it as a sole criteria to decide whether somebody is valuable in your life filters out a lot of promise and opportunity. And, really, I've never seen a human completely immune to ambivalence, and misunderstanding of self, sometimes what people really want is clearer to a third party. On the less positive side, non verbal is essential in identifying those who are being purposefully disingenuous and potentially hurtful, bond of word is not near strong enough to decide to initiate relationship with unknowns. The world is a fuzzy, messy place, sometimes it pays to accept it as such.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Smilephantomhive's Avatar
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    It's important when communicating with my dog. I can't tell him to come with me to my room since he doesn't speak English. Instead I motion for him to follow me, and that is how I get him to come with me.


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  8. #28
    Megustalations Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilephantomhive View Post
    It's important when communicating with my dog.
    I mean-mug my dog into obedience when he acts up.

  9. #29
    Phase-shifted beam Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    OP has never had a girlfriend.
    You are quite correct. Never wanted one, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    I think women prefer non verbal communication for the sake of dodging direct quotable accountability, as has been their prerogative for centuries, but in overpursuing the ruin of men with whom they regret having sex with they went and shot themselves in the foot. Men, smart men in particular, have no trouble absorbing accountability for a woman’s own actions and problems (when in doubt boys, just apologize), but now that those apologies come with a potential life ruining lawsuit thanks to off the rails feminism, men are thinking twice before blindly accepting responsibility for everything. Sorry ladies, but if you want your cake you’re going to have to put on your big girl panties and use your words before you get to eat it.
    That's quite some generalizing and assuming, but I will endorse your final recommendation wholeheartedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    **Someone laying on the ground, bleeding with a knife in their stomach**

    Coriolis: Are you okay?

    A-person-bleeding-to-death: Oh, I'm perfectly fine! **Thumbs up**

    Coriolis: I just wanted to confirm your situation.

    ---
    Jokes aside.
    Without non-verbal communication, I don't know if you're serious or being funny either, and now, I think I might need to confirm that.
    I am being serious, and will answer your extreme example with an extreme reply. Such a situation could arise as a result of suicide, e.g. seppuku, in which case the person is "perfectly fine" because they are achieving their goal. To know whether this applies, I would need to know something of the background of the individual. Why else might they answer in this way, when they are clearly in danger of death? Should I assume rather that they are insane, or of the temperament to be joking around while in such dire straits? Most of our everyday interactions are much less singular. Even when someone's body language suggests that they don't mean what they say, unless they are going to be forthcoming about what they do mean (which they obviously chose not to do initially), I am as likely to guess wrong as guess right. So, I take them at face value, and wait for a correction if that becomes necessary. As ambiguous as language can sometimes be, nonverbal cues are far more likely to be misinterpreted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Nonetheless, there are many situations where forcing the other person to express themselves verbally is completely counter-productive, depending on the circumstances.
    No need to force anyone, but logical consequences can quickly catch up with them. If they find expressing themselves nonverbally isn't getting them what they want, time to change tack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Sometimes women or men can't bring themselves to ask for something they want because they're afraid of rejection, and they'd rather protect their feelings. That translates into an afraid, perplexed, and hesitant body language. So what? We're going to blame them for that because they can't put that into words?
    We needn't blame them, but we can't give them what they want if we cannot tell what that is because they are not asking directly. They must choose between the risk of rejection, and the risk of not getting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    In Coriolis' case, it comes to mind that most NTJs' abyssal fear is losing control. By assuming they can keep track of everything by simply receiving crystal clear verbatim data to work with, they think they have control unconscious of their own shortcomings, until reality hits them in the butt. That same fear of losing control is why we are long-term planners, always a step ahead.
    It is awareness of my shortcomings that leads me not to rely on nonverbal cues. Perhaps it is another one that I have little patience when others misinterpret mine.
    Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. ~ Buddha

  10. #30
    filling some space Ghost of the dead horse's Avatar
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    I'll have to get back to this thread on a response I've thought out, but I would like to point out some people actually combine good communication with good thought. Just perhaps not extended length of details over details
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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