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View Poll Results: Are we all secretly what we hate?

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  • Yes

    9 47.37%
  • No

    10 52.63%
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  1. #21
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    What you're talking about is the idea of the Jungian shadow and attributing it to an other, or if you use the short hand "othering".

    Its also called scapegoating, although that is a slightly different deal, only slightly.

    Its badly understood, even in some of its primary sources, so I dont throw it out there much, the same as Freud's idea about the thing you repress, suppress and deny being something you can consciously claim to hate but nonetheless remains unconsciously quite the contrary, its badly understood too, cited in the wrong ways and contexts too for particular purposes.

    Personally, I really dont like this thinking because it makes it impossible to take even a modestly critical position on anything, the minute you say you're not quite so sure about this or that and it sounds like a very bad idea, well, its obvious you're only saying that because the contrary is the case, you see? Its as insidious as the newspeak in big brother's 1984.
    Hmmm, I think you're coloring this Jungian notion of the shadow with moral connotations. Really, Jung doesn't say it is good or bad to project one's shadow in a moral sense, just that many people do it without being aware of it. Jung brings this up not to preach, which would be ironic, but just to remind people of what makes them tick.

    This is how I apply this: I am critical of certain things, including in a moral/ethical sense, but I try to remind myself that my judgements aeren't absolute but I try to say stuff like "it gets on my nerves when people say this or that" but I try to take it with some humor that I am upset at certain things. Not too much, I take my own judgement seriously and if I feel there is something wrong or dishonest about someone else's thinking, I'll stand by that. It's just good to have some distance vis a vis one's own moral judgements, that doesn't mean you laugh at yourself to the point of invalidating your own feelings, but just enough to see yourself more clearly.

    The use of this is to better make choices. If you think this or that political group is evil for example, you can ask yourself why you have such visceral gut reactions to that group's ideology. I use politics because it is a domain where these judgements tend to come out. It's always good to understand what makes you react the way you do. After that, you're free to still think that poltical group is worng and mistaken, but you will own that choice rather than it owning you.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I think so, yes.

    I also think this is related to the concept of the shadow brought up by Survive and Stay Free. (Sorry I can't find the "and" symbol on my keyboard so I can't tag you).
    I know you used my post for your example in your own. I'm glad you did cause I know I could explore intellectually with you.

    I think there is a difference between hate and disgust. When I say: "I hate ____". I don't mean that I'm implying an extreme hostile feeling towards that bigoted person. I feel more of a disgust in their behavior. I believe it's possible to find disgust in an individual's behavior and be aware that it is not necessarily their character as a whole. I believe this would be a form of compartmentalization.

    Also, I would find disgust in myself if I acted in a bigoted way. This is where Jung's shadow theory comes in, I believe. If I did act with bigotry, I would feel shame and detention of my character because I'm aware that it's a character flaw that impedes grow. Personally, I wouldn't lack the self-awareness to ignore this though because my self-awareness is strong. I'd be more than willing to explore this phenomenon and I have in my own mind, and with others, plenty of times. When I have acted in ways I disliked, I've been fast to understand why and how, and to be honest with myself. I guess I am more willing to delve into my unconsciousness and be introspective about my self-identity and shortcomings, as Jung implies about a healthy ego.

    I know you're not necessarily talking about me directly but I don't mind using myself as an example.
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  3. #23
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard View Post
    I know you used my post for your example in your own. I'm glad you did cause I know I could explore intellectually with you.

    I think there is a difference between hate and disgust. When I say: "I hate ____". I don't mean that I'm implying an extreme hostile feeling towards that bigoted person. I feel more of a disgust in their behavior. I believe it's possible to find disgust in an individual's behavior and be aware that it is not necessarily their character as a whole. I believe this would be a form of compartmentalization.

    Also, I would find disgust in myself if I acted in a bigoted way. This is where Jung's shadow theory comes in, I believe. If I did act with bigotry, I would feel shame and detention of my character because I'm aware that it's a character flaw that impedes grow. Personally, I wouldn't lack the self-awareness to ignore this though because my self-awareness is strong. I'd be more than willing to explore this phenomenon and I have in my own mind, and with others, plenty of times. When I have acted in ways I disliked, I've been fast to understand why and how, and to be honest with myself. I guess I am more willing to delve into my unconsciousness and take instropection about my self-identity and shortcomings, as Jung implies about an healthy ego.

    I know you're not necessarily talking about me directly but I don't mind using myself as an example.
    Yeah, you're right I got inspired to write my initial response by your post.

    Though as an example, the bigotry thing, is a good example and that's why I use it; it comes up often, and as you know it is not directed at you.

    But that makes sense. Distingushing behavior and the whole person.

    But an interesting question might be to ask why you feel such disgust towards such behavior in the first place. Not that there is anything wrong with your feeling this; but it might help to see yourself better why you react the way you do. I have strong reactions to things myself, I'm not always able to find the time and energy to introspect, lol, but it's worth my time when I do.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Yeah, you're right I got inspired to write my initial response by your post.

    Though as an example, the bigotry thing, is a good example and that's why I use it; it comes up often, and as you know it is not directed at you.

    But that makes sense. Distingushing behavior and the whole person.

    But an interesting question might be to ask why you feel such disgust towards such behavior in the first place. Not that there is anything wrong with your feeling this; but it might help to see yourself better why you react the way you do. I have strong reactions to things myself, I'm not always able to find the time and energy to introspect, lol, but it's worth my time when I do.
    Hahahha gotcha 🤣!

    Oh! I already know why I find such a disgust. Like I said above though, I feel like it's a behavior that impedes growth. I know there were times I was close-minded to new information. It really set me back intellectually and emotionally. I could have used that new info to change my life sooner. But at the time, I was emotionally closed off because I lacked stability and clarity. I stunted my growth by doing this and the shame I felt about it shut me off towards others. I felt disgust being in such a state because I wasn't acting in a manner that wasn't true to myself or my personal needs.

    Ever try journaling?? It can help you learn a lotttt about yourself. And it doesn't take much time either.
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  5. #25
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    strangely, I'm often more forgiving of the same flaws in others that I find unforgivable in myself... I think it's probably because I can't see their motives so I assume the best, while with me I KNOW my motives and therefore am more judgy

    though I do find relentless optimists to be gratingly annoying despite apparently being one myself
    “The phrase 'Someone ought to do something' was not, by itself, a helpful one. People who used it never added the rider 'and that someone is me'.” - Terry Pratchett
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  6. #26
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    nope. most of the stuff i hate in others like loudness i am not which has been confirmed on multiple occasions
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so :hi:
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  7. #27
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    I am just thinking, I hate diabetes so I guess some how it must mean I AM diabetes?!

  8. #28
    Poking the poodle Frosty's Avatar
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    Sure. Im sure that everyone has things they dislike ablut themselves. Do those things necessarily define them as people? Thats probably up to the individual to decide, at least extent wise.

    But yeah, I would say to some extent we ARE probably what we hate i a way... but thats why self improvement, and I suppose self acceptance of even our flaws at times, can be a wonderful thing

    That said, it takes a lot for me to judge someone super harshly- Im much faster to do that to myself then I am to do that to someone else. Like some other people have said, because I usually know my own motives so I cant let myself get away with things the way I might someone else- me being the only person I can control.

    Usually I dont hate things in other people that I hate in myself- I dont think so anyways. What happens sometimes though is that I... I feel sad for people because of understanding similarities between myself, between their experience/situation and my own, and theirs. It usually if anything makes it even harder for me to hate them

  9. #29
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    Okay, I'm realizing now that everyone in this thread means it way more general than I do.

    This is only possible if it's done in adjectives, basically.

    If you're stubborn and you hate stubbornness in others, for example.

    Lol I hate things that are really specific, not general like that. For example - transphobes. I'm obviously not one of those since I am literally trans and I don't hate myself or that fact about me at all. Would make absolutely no sense.

    But sure, if we're going to go the general route I can see how it could be true, but 1000% not as a rule.
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  10. #30
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    I don't really hate anything.

    So maybe.

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