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  1. #1
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Default The Dunning Kruger effect on our forums

    As some of you may already know, the Dunning Kruger effect can be summarized as follows.

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    Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

    The least competent and capable of people tend to be the most likely to grossly overestimate their own abilities.

    For example, people who score in the 11th percentile of all standardized test-takers are likely to rate their abilities as being in the 99% percentile. The same goes for typing skills, music, IQ tests and so on.

    Conversely, the exceptionaly capable performers tend to underestimate their own abilities.

    The reason for this mismatch between the actual abilities of people and their perception of their own competencies is simple. The lower our skill level is in any craft, the less likely we are to be capable of identifying our own deficiencies. In other words, the skills required for one to optimize their performance overlap with the ones we need to understand what we must improve upon. So, the most incompetent of us tend to be deficient to the point where we have no idea how we can raise our skill-level. In the absence of knowledge of our own short-comings, we tend to presume ourselves to be excellent.

    Conversely, the superb performers have a highly refined ability to identify flaws in their own performance. Naturally, they are constantly aware of the many ways in which they can improve.

    ---------------------------------------------

    I haven't been active on this forum for a long time, but I can confess the following.

    One of the reasons I have stopped posting is that my general knowledge and verbal communication skills have improved. In part because of this, I've heightened my awareness of how my previous posts could have used plenty of improvement. Moreover, it has dawned on me that if I were to even begin enhancing them, I'd need to devote far more time to them than I was willing to.

    I have also noticed that even if I were to do that, I would get very little feedback from other thoughtful people who were also willing to take the discussion to the next level. The reason for it is simple: the thoughtful posters are also well aware of how much time and effort it takes for them to contribute intellectual value to a fairly complex discussion.

    On the other hand, there would be no shortage of ill-conceived and flippant replies from folks who know next to nothing, yet somehow presume themselves to be exceptionally bright.

    This seems to explain why various social media sites are awash in comments from young adults who proclaim that their IQ is higher than Einstein's. Surely, had these college kids taken just an hour of their time out of their wide open schedule to learn the basic facts about IQ, they wouldn't be sputtering such non-sense.

    I must admit, I am quite wary of people who appear to be much brighter than I am and the more learned I become, the easier time I have of identifying such individuals. On the other hand, when I see someone boast of their "totally awesome, off the charts IQ", I know that I have nothing to worry about. I can say the same about the regular forum members who never get tired of posting self-congratulatory drivel.


    ---------------------------------------------

    Admittedly, to some extent, this post can count as an example of the same kind of rhetoric that I am railing against, so I don't pretend to be the humblest and the most capable of the members of our community.

    Had I been as accomplished and articule as I'd like myself to be, I probably wouldn't be posting here, let alone trying to initiate a conversation on the Dunning-Kruger effect. The irony of the situation I am creating is not lost on me and I fully expect that the majority of the replies I'll receive here will carry very little substance.

    Yet again, I shall ask our readers the following questions.

    Have you noticed that regardless of how carefully you try to frame the issue or how thoroughly you attempt to support your claims with facts or cogent arguments, the lion's share of replies you'll get will always be completely meritless?

    Likewise, have you noticed that when you identify a few thoughtful posters whom you'd like to engage in your discussions, it is next to impossible to encourage them to participate?
    Last edited by SolitaryWalker; 01-16-2018 at 06:08 AM.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #2
    Hurr asynartetic's Avatar
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    I think I'm usually pretty good at sniffing out the bullshitters whenever there's an IQ discussion and 7 out of 10 people report having 140+ IQs. However, it is probably just the Dunning-Kruger and my abilities to sniff out bullshitters are being grossly overstated.

    Personally I'm much more humble and guess my own IQ to be somewhere around 125, at the most. Hey, it would be nice to have 140 IQ, but if everyone were that smart, there wouldn't be any advantage to being that smart, would there?
    I hate to make excuses for my assholery, but I'm on the spectrum, so if I insult you, it most likely wasn't intentional.

  3. #3
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
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    May I ask you a question?

    Why have you decided to ask those questions here, on this forum? Both of the quotes in your signature allude to the ideas you've mentioned in your post and I'm guessing you've had that signature for longer then this post has been up. Surely you've found sites with these "Thoughtful posters"? What do you hope to find out here? What's your measure of the user base? What are you hoping to learn or prove?

  4. #4
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Fiend View Post
    Surely you've found sites with these "Thoughtful posters"?
    What makes you sure?

    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post

    Personally I'm much more humble and guess my own IQ to be somewhere around 125, at the most.
    125 is very high.

    Without knowing anything about your intellectual performance, I cannot affirm or challenge your estimate.

    However, if your IQ is 125, it is likely that you've exhibited the majority of these traits.

    -Youthful precociousness: excelled in elementary school, your teachers always regarded you as a bright pupil and recommended you for advanced courses

    -Rapid learning: learned faster than most of your peers and showed an interest in advanced issues that most kids your age were indifferent to

    -Coasting through formal education: performed well on standardized tests, often with minimal preparation

    -Social alienation: often found yourself alienated from your peers because of your sophisticated interests, advanced vocabulary and a complex way of seeing the world that's quite uncommon for your age

    -Cognitive vitality: just as the gifted athletes strive to remain physically activity and maintain their form, you read broadly, enjoy brain-teasers, show an interest in the arts and are willing to raise your skill level in a specific intellectual craft


    Of course, this is not to say that all people with an IQ of 125 exhibit every single one of these traits, but as a matter of statistical probability, the majority of people whose IQ is in that range tend to display the majority of these traits.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/
    Likes Xann liked this post

  5. #5
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What makes you sure?
    Because Typology C isn't some last bastion,of intellectual discussion. You took a three year hiatus from the site, you haven't found anywhere else to go during that time to meet your needs of discussion? I'm genuinely curious about the other questions I asked as well.

  6. #6
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Fiend View Post
    You took a three year hiatus from the site, you haven't found anywhere else to go during that time to meet your needs of discussion?
    I have not and this seems to be the problem with online forums in general.

    Granted, I have not looked especially carefully, but I am not willing to invest the time and the effort that may be necessary to find the kind of an erudite community that you seem to have in mind.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #7
    Hurr asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What makes you sure?



    125 is very high.

    Without knowing anything about your intellectual performance, I cannot affirm or challenge your estimate.

    However, if your IQ is 125, it is likely that you've exhibited the majority of these traits.

    -Youthful precociousness: excelled in elementary school, your teachers always regarded you as a bright pupil and recommended you for advanced courses

    -Rapid learning: learned faster than most of your peers and showed an interest in advanced issues that most kids your age were indifferent to

    -Coasting through formal education: performed well on standardized tests, often with minimal preparation

    -Social alienation: often found yourself alienated from your peers because of your sophisticated interests, advanced vocabulary and a complex way of seeing the world that's quite uncommon for your age

    -Cognitive vitality: just as the gifted athletes strive to remain physically activity and maintain their form, you read broadly, enjoy brain-teasers, show an interest in the arts and are willing to raise your skill level in a specific intellectual craft


    Of course, this is not to say that all people with an IQ of 125 exhibit every single one of these traits, but as a matter of statistical probability, the majority of people whose IQ is in that range tend to display the majority of these traits.
    It's Dunning-Kruger, I'm actually 95.
    I hate to make excuses for my assholery, but I'm on the spectrum, so if I insult you, it most likely wasn't intentional.

  8. #8
    Mastermind Fieldmarshal Sacrophagus's Avatar
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    Default

    The least competent and capable of people tend to be the most likely to grossly overestimate their own abilities.
    An INTP works for me with a vast knowledge on many topics. She's blessed by an ability to recall facts and data about many problems, but she tends to lose herself amidst that database. She has some self-esteem issues which we luckily circumvent, but I always tell her that she can really make it big on her own, if she fosters the courage required.



    I must admit, I am quite wary of people who appear to be much brighter than I am and the more learned I become, the easier time I have of identifying such individuals. On the other hand, when I see someone boast of their "totally awesome, off the charts IQ", I know that I have nothing to worry about.

    The more we know, the more we realize how much we don't know. It is humbling, but it should not stop other people from celebrating themselves no matter how big their accomplishments. People re born free, and you should not concern yourself with what others do with their lives.

    I can say the same about the regular forum members who never get tired of posting self-congratulatory drivel.

    The fact that you should address, is that you have issues.

    Had I been as accomplished and articule as I'd like myself to be, I probably wouldn't be posting here, let alone trying to initiate a conversation on the Dunning-Kruger effect. The irony of the situation I am creating here is not lost on me and I fully expect that the majority of the replies I'll receive here will carry very little substance.
    Ability is not the vertex of components in life. Amiability and optimism are building ingredients, whereas oblviousness and pessimism are destructive ingredients. On which will you invest your energy?

    You're projecting your feelings about past experiences into the future, and you'll likely to create the same circumstances again. Otherwise, everyone would be willing to engage you in whatever topic you want, provided you don't carry ill intentions about them beforehand.

  9. #9
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    It's Dunning-Kruger, I'm actually 95.
    That's quite clever, but not nearly good enough.

    The natural response to the Dunning-Kruger effect is to deliberately underestimate our own abilities as a way of convincing others that we're astute.

    To be sure, it is better to underestimate ourselves than to overestimate, yet neither is a genuine substitute for thoughtful commentary on the Dunning-Kruger effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    An INTP works for me with a vast knowledge on many topics. She's blessed by an ability to recall facts and data about many problems, but she tends to lose herself amidst that database. She has some self-esteem issues which we luckily circumvent, but I always tell her that she can really make it big on her own, if she fosters the courage required.
    Do you truly think you're helping her with this kind of encouragement?






    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    The more we know, the more we realize how much we don't know..
    That's a good starting point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    It is humbling, but it should not stop other people from celebrating themselves no matter how big their accomplishments..
    There is some truth to this, but we need to be clearer on what counts as a genuine accomplishment. For example, nowdays, it is not uncommon for children to receive participation ribbons simply for attending an after-school event.

    I think this is partly why many of our posters tend to become irate when others do not offer them the kind of incessant praise they've become accustomed to, regardless of how little aptitude, knowledge or effort they display here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    People re born free, and you should not concern yourself with what others do with their lives..
    That's an interesting bit of moralizing here, but I am at a loss to see what any of this may mean.

    People are born free, how? Who should not be concerned with what others do. Do you mean that we should not be concerned with the psychology underpinning the behavior of other people?

    In that case, the study of typology must surely be meritless.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    The fact that you should address, is that you have issues.
    Thank you for that unsolicited advice.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Ability is not the vertex of components in life.
    What does that mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Amiability and optimism are building ingredients, whereas oblviousness and pessimism are destructive ingredients. On which will you invest your energy?
    You have your causal arrow backwards.

    I suggest you spend a little bit of time reading the results of the most recent studies on self-esteem.

    The Gift of Failure | Psychology Today

    I would also highly recommend the following book by Jean Twenge and Keith Campbell.

    The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement: Jean M. Twenge, W. Keith Campbell: 9781416575993: Amazon.com: Books

    For multiple decades, psychologists believed that they could empower the youth to become high-achievers by artifically boosting their self-esteem. They arrived at this conclusion based on the observation that high achievers tended to have high self-esteem and presumed the latter to cause the former.

    Why are so many millennials depressed? A therapist points the finger at Mom and Dad. - The Washington Post

    Yet, the reality is that this form of adult guidance only saddled the youth with unrealistic expectations and deprived them of the genuine motivation to build genuine life skills.

    The reality is that self-esteem is a result of achievement, not the other way around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    You're projecting your feelings about past experiences into the future, and you'll likely to create the same circumstances again.
    This is an interesting bit of speculation, but I trust you realize that such a bold assertion reveals your own tendency to engage in projection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    Otherwise, everyone would be willing to engage you in whatever topic you want, provided you don't carry ill intentions about them beforehand.
    Everyone, really?

    I am afraid I don't share your optimism.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/
    Likes magpie liked this post

  10. #10
    Hurr asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What makes you sure?



    125 is very high.

    Without knowing anything about your intellectual performance, I cannot affirm or challenge your estimate.

    However, if your IQ is 125, it is likely that you've exhibited the majority of these traits.

    -Youthful precociousness: excelled in elementary school, your teachers always regarded you as a bright pupil and recommended you for advanced courses

    -Rapid learning: learned faster than most of your peers and showed an interest in advanced issues that most kids your age were indifferent to

    -Coasting through formal education: performed well on standardized tests, often with minimal preparation

    -Social alienation: often found yourself alienated from your peers because of your sophisticated interests, advanced vocabulary and a complex way of seeing the world that's quite uncommon for your age

    -Cognitive vitality: just as the gifted athletes strive to remain physically activity and maintain their form, you read broadly, enjoy brain-teasers, show an interest in the arts and are willing to raise your skill level in a specific intellectual craft


    Of course, this is not to say that all people with an IQ of 125 exhibit every single one of these traits, but as a matter of statistical probability, the majority of people whose IQ is in that range tend to display the majority of these traits.
    Joking aside, I was a bright kid, but I wouldn't say gifted. Placed in advanced reading groups by 1st grade because I was reading books at a 3rd and 4th grade level, sometimes higher if the subject matter interested me greatly. I excelled in elementary school but had some issues later on and began to become very bored with school, doing the bare minimum to get average grades, unless it was a subject I liked, in which case I generally performed well with little to no effort. Family and adults said I spoke and carried myself like a little professor as a child Social alienation, check. Cognitive vitality, check. I would and still do enjoy "brain exercising" and begin to feel tired, depressed and nihilistic if I am not being stimulated.

    Ultimately though, I think IQ is probably overrated and no guarantee of success, or even wisdom. I've met my share of highly intelligent, almost savant like individuals who were far from what I would consider wise, and in some cases open-minded. IQ usually is a good measure of abstract intelligence, however I think that is not the only form of intelligence.
    I hate to make excuses for my assholery, but I'm on the spectrum, so if I insult you, it most likely wasn't intentional.

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