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Would you be able to spot a psychopath?

Fluffywolf

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I Wish people would stop personally attacking me for making a thread where I have a difference of opinion from others in the thread.

I don't see any personal attacks, just on your opinion regarding this subject.

To be fair, calling a generalization evil on any account was probably a bad idea (at least my opinion is as such). Evil is ambigious. Calling it out in a generalisation is going to turn some heads. Still, let me just make it clear, I have a lot of understanding for your point of view and I don't believe it makes you a bad person whatsoever. Like I said in my first post, you're passionately trying to make a better world. You and most of the worlds population would probably see it this way too. It is probably the most common view. I just believe your perspective is limited and youre judgements hasty.




Saying all psychopaths evil is like saying all nazi's were all evil, while in truth most of the nazi's were normal people like you and me who were run and lead by people with the worst intentions and were completely caught in those peoples worldviews.

People are mallable and prone to subjective idealism to the point of getting stuck in those mindsets. If there is a goal I wanted to reach with my stance on this subject, it is that I would prefer it if people would withhold their subjective judgements and keep trying to think and approach these subjects from a critical thinking point of view.

For example, had everyone in early 20th century germany been well educated and capable of such thinking, much horror could've probably been prevented. The amount of people going "Wait just a minute, what the hell are we doing." would have been a lot more. A whole country probably wouldn't have moved as it did.

I just think the same mindset holds true for psychopaths. Judging on actions done is fine, but where did that person go wrong? Who or what was truly at fault in that situation and how could it have been prevented? I don't like the idea of judging people on what they are capable of. An entire country was capable of killing 15 million people in the span of a couple of years. Based on history, we should then condemn every single person.

An enlightended society capable of looking past such things, would instead look for possible causes and try to prevent those causes from happening. Rather than proactively trying to exclude people from society which I believe would be counter-productive in literally every situation. Continueing to focus on being an inclusive society, focusing on preventive measures while withholding judgements has in my opinion the best chances to protect people from such crimes. By trying to make sure they do not happen. History shows pretty much everyone has the capability to do harm, in most cases the reason why people commit these acts is due to their environment and society failing them and lacking the proper education and mindset to protect themselves from those failings.

Let's try our best not to fall in such a mindset and protect ourselves from who we might become even in the worst of environments.


Also, I understand the discussion might be very overbearing for you. But I think it is still an important discussion. You represent the vast majority of the people in this discussion. Most people would definately agree with you and I think there aren't enough discussions about this subject really.

PS: Also, in the psychology spheres, there still isn't a conclusion made on what psychopaths are and studies of psychopaths still hasn't reached a level of understanding that is enough to reach consensus. But just because we don't fully understand it, something still must be done and descision must be made. Unfortunately, the best ways to deal with these things costs the most money as well, so legislation regarding these matters is far from perfect.
 

Lark

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I don't see any personal attacks, just on your opinion regarding this subject.

To be fair, calling a generalization evil on any account was probably a bad idea (at least my opinion is as such). Evil is ambigious. Calling it out in a generalisation is going to turn some heads. Still, let me just make it clear, I have a lot of understanding for your point of view and I don't believe it makes you a bad person whatsoever. Like I said in my first post, you're passionately trying to make a better world. You and most of the worlds population would probably see it this way too. It is probably the most common view. I just believe your perspective is limited and youre judgements hasty.




Saying all psychopaths evil is like saying all nazi's were all evil, while in truth most of the nazi's were normal people like you and me who were run and lead by people with the worst intentions and were completely caught in those peoples worldviews.

People are mallable and prone to subjective idealism to the point of getting stuck in those mindsets. If there is a goal I wanted to reach with my stance on this subject, it is that I would prefer it if people would withhold their subjective judgements and keep trying to think and approach these subjects from a critical thinking point of view.

For example, had everyone in early 20th century germany been well educated and capable of such thinking, much horror could've probably been prevented. The amount of people going "Wait just a minute, what the hell are we doing." would have been a lot more. A whole country probably wouldn't have moved as it did.

I just think the same mindset holds true for psychopaths. Judging on actions done is fine, but where did that person go wrong? Who or what was truly at fault in that situation and how could it have been prevented? I don't like the idea of judging people on what they are capable of. An entire country was capable of killing 15 million people in the span of a couple of years. Based on history, we should then condemn every single person.

An enlightended society capable of looking past such things, would instead look for possible causes and try to prevent those causes from happening. Rather than proactively trying to exclude people from society which I believe would be counter-productive in literally every situation. Continueing to focus on being an inclusive society, focusing on preventive measures while withholding judgements has in my opinion the best chances to protect people from such crimes. By trying to make sure they do not happen. History shows pretty much everyone has the capability to do harm, in most cases the reason why people commit these acts is due to their environment and society failing them and lacking the proper education and mindset to protect themselves from those failings.

Let's try our best not to fall in such a mindset and protect ourselves from who we might become even in the worst of environments.


Also, I understand the discussion might be very overbearing for you. But I think it is still an important discussion. You represent the vast majority of the people in this discussion. Most people would definately agree with you and I think there aren't enough discussions about this subject really.

PS: Also, in the psychology spheres, there still isn't a conclusion made on what psychopaths are and studies of psychopaths still hasn't reached a level of understanding that is enough to reach consensus. But just because we don't fully understand it, something still must be done and descision must be made. Unfortunately, the best ways to deal with these things costs the most money as well, so legislation regarding these matters is far from perfect.

Splitting hairs about whether or not psychopaths or nazis are evil or not?

Precisely something that evil people will exploit for evil.
 

Fluffywolf

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Splitting hairs about whether or not psychopaths or nazis are evil or not?

Precisely something that evil people will exploit for evil.

We just have a disagreement on wether evil is inherent or cultivated. If you believe evil is inherent, and thus an entire country of nazi's just coincidentally were all born evil, what you said might ring true.

I just choose to believe evil is cultivated and that the vast majority of those people were not all evil people, but manipulated and coaxed into it.

Ironically, I believe my stance is exactly the opposite of your opinion. I believe splitting hairs about whether or not psychopaths or nazis are evil or not would lead to a better understanding of them and how they came to be and lead to better preventive measures to counter it as a force for good, rather than your opinion that something like that serves an evil agenda.


(Sorry, I kneejerked a little there by analyzing your words, but only as a response to your kneejerk :p )
 

Peter Deadpan

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Yes, I can for the most part identify Antisocial Personality Disorder in others, with proper exposure. Sometimes I pick up on something being "off" with very little exposure, but there is no way for me to confirm or disprove my analysis. In fact, usually there isn't a way to prove/disprove it regardless of how well you know someone, because most will not out themselves to you and you don't have access to their medical records, if any, which are unlikely to even exist because most with APD don't seek treatment.

No, I don't fear those with APD the way that most people do. As Magpie stated, I see humanity in shades of gray.

Once you tap into your own less empathic side, I think it becomes easier to imagine what it would be like to completely lack empathy. Black and white do not exist.
 
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Certainly society should keep someone nicknamed BTK (Bind Torture Kill) alive because clearly he’s a benefit to society and as long as we use behavioristic reward systems he won’t bind torture and kill anyone. Unless of course he escapes. Dead serial killers don’t escape.

I’m sure John Wayne Gacy wouldn’t have skinned people and worn their hides like costumes as long as he got to watch TV and eat pizza. Perhaps Ted Bundy could have been a real ladies man if he only had access to finger painting time. These individuals, the repeat offenders are damaged goods. Homicidal damaged goods. You don’t try to reform them. They are a clear and present danger to society and should be destroyed. No pity, no sympathy because I assure you anyone who can engage in the acts they have carried out has no concept of either.

Read up on these guys. Really absorb the details of their inhuman behavior and tell me they can be salvaged.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Certainly society should keep someone nicknamed BTK (Bind Torture Kill) alive because clearly he’s a benefit to society and as long as we use behavioristic reward systems he won’t bind torture and kill anyone. Unless of course he escapes. Dead serial killers don’t escape.

I’m sure John Wayne Gacy wouldn’t have skinned people and worn their hides like costumes as long as he got to watch TV and eat pizza. Perhaps Ted Bundy could have been a real ladies man if he only had access to finger painting time. These individuals, the repeat offenders are damaged goods. Homicidal damaged goods. You don’t try to reform them. They are a clear and present danger to society and should be destroyed. No pity, no sympathy because I assure you anyone who can engage in the acts they have carried out has no concept of either.

Read up on these guys. Really absorb the details of their inhuman behavior and tell me they can be salvaged.

Sure but psychopathy doesn't necessarily equal homicidal sadist.
 
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Sure but psychopathy doesn't necessarily equal homicidal sadist.

Nope. That’s why I mentioned the extreme cases of psychopathy. Just like not everyone with bipolar disorder is a suicidal nut not everyone with psychopathy is a serial killer. I just don’t understand why we keep serial killers alive. And anyone suggesting you can reform a monster into a human has a better chance of turning a great white shark into a vegetarian.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Nope. That’s why I mentioned the extreme cases of psychopathy. Just like not everyone with bipolar disorder is a suicidal nut not everyone with psychopathy is a serial killer. I just don’t understand why we keep serial killers alive. And anyone suggesting you can reform a monster into a human has a better chance of turning a great white shark into a vegetarian.

Remember that one time we got into an argument of sorts about female body types and perceptions of beauty?
Good times, frand.
 

prplchknz

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nope, i might feel something's off but honestly probably wouldn't even notice that. if i did notice i'd be in too deep by then.
 

Frosty

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I don't see any personal attacks, just on your opinion regarding this subject.

To be fair, calling a generalization evil on any account was probably a bad idea (at least my opinion is as such). Evil is ambigious. Calling it out in a generalisation is going to turn some heads. Still, let me just make it clear, I have a lot of understanding for your point of view and I don't believe it makes you a bad person whatsoever. Like I said in my first post, you're passionately trying to make a better world. You and most of the worlds population would probably see it this way too. It is probably the most common view. I just believe your perspective is limited and youre judgements hasty.




Saying all psychopaths evil is like saying all nazi's were all evil, while in truth most of the nazi's were normal people like you and me who were run and lead by people with the worst intentions and were completely caught in those peoples worldviews.

People are mallable and prone to subjective idealism to the point of getting stuck in those mindsets. If there is a goal I wanted to reach with my stance on this subject, it is that I would prefer it if people would withhold their subjective judgements and keep trying to think and approach these subjects from a critical thinking point of view.

For example, had everyone in early 20th century germany been well educated and capable of such thinking, much horror could've probably been prevented. The amount of people going "Wait just a minute, what the hell are we doing." would have been a lot more. A whole country probably wouldn't have moved as it did.

I just think the same mindset holds true for psychopaths. Judging on actions done is fine, but where did that person go wrong? Who or what was truly at fault in that situation and how could it have been prevented? I don't like the idea of judging people on what they are capable of. An entire country was capable of killing 15 million people in the span of a couple of years. Based on history, we should then condemn every single person.

An enlightended society capable of looking past such things, would instead look for possible causes and try to prevent those causes from happening. Rather than proactively trying to exclude people from society which I believe would be counter-productive in literally every situation. Continueing to focus on being an inclusive society, focusing on preventive measures while withholding judgements has in my opinion the best chances to protect people from such crimes. By trying to make sure they do not happen. History shows pretty much everyone has the capability to do harm, in most cases the reason why people commit these acts is due to their environment and society failing them and lacking the proper education and mindset to protect themselves from those failings.

Let's try our best not to fall in such a mindset and protect ourselves from who we might become even in the worst of environments.


Also, I understand the discussion might be very overbearing for you. But I think it is still an important discussion. You represent the vast majority of the people in this discussion. Most people would definately agree with you and I think there aren't enough discussions about this subject really.

PS: Also, in the psychology spheres, there still isn't a conclusion made on what psychopaths are and studies of psychopaths still hasn't reached a level of understanding that is enough to reach consensus. But just because we don't fully understand it, something still must be done and descision must be made. Unfortunately, the best ways to deal with these things costs the most money as well, so legislation regarding these matters is far from perfect.

Really? I see people putting words in my mouth again and again.

And honestly, I usually dont make a big shit about this sort of thing- but when ny motives are questioned again and again- Im going to say something.

So Im done. I will not allow myself to have to defend MYSELF in a topic that was never about ME in the first place. Im trying to have the self respect to do that.

Ive had a couple people pm me though and say they arent comfortahle posting in this thread- but they want to share their thoughts privately. And honestly I can understand why.

I would have loved to have discussed this topic without it getting all fucking personal. I never-NEVER drag peoples private stuff into a thread like this. And I dont really appreciate people not having that same amount of respect for me. The second suggestions about someones character enter a discussion is the second I know that I dont want anything to do with it.

So Im done. Im willing to continue this conversation in private with people. But thats it.

But of course, everyone is free to continue enjoying the thread
 

Lord Lavender

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I have my own thoughts and observations on pysopaths as defined in common use and in the medical community. Honestly I don't think they all deserve to be labeled all under the same brush of being evil murderers but rather people who like many other groups of people such as those who are autistic,ADHD e.t.c which are all categories of people who have a list of traits pathloglized by the medical community and society as a whole when most people will feature traits of all the above so a question I ask what separates people with their unquie personallty from others. I think a reduced level of empathy is needed to a degree for some aspects of society where emotions and empathy are not useful such as in milltary,emergency response e.t.c. I don't think anyone's personallty should be treated as a disorder unless it causes harm to the person or others around them.
 

Frosty

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This is basically the most imporant thing I was trying to get across with this thread.

The empathy trap: therapists and counselors almost by definition are empathic, to facilitate clients' recovery - but this quality can mean those carers are targets for sociopaths, aided by what Dr Jane & Tim McGregor call "apaths". The first UK article on this cruel sport shows how to identify and thus avoid it.

People targeted by a sociopath often respond with self-deprecating comments like "I was stupid", "what was I thinking" of "I should've listened to my gut instinct". But being involved with a sociopath is like being brainwashed. The sociopath's superficial charm is usually the means by which s/he conditions people.


Comment: Tragically, the shame and embarrassment of having been conned and duped often keeps people quiet about what happened to them, which then further obscures the machinations of the sociopaths and results in other people getting duped by them as well. If people got over this shame and embarrassment, they could network with others about these predators and then they would be exposed for what they are and less able to destroy the lives of others.


On initial contact, a sociopath will often test other people's empathy, so questions geared towards discovering if you are highly empathic or not should ring alarm bells. People with a highly empathic disposition are often targeted. Those with lower levels of empathy are often passed over, though they can be drawn in and used by sociopaths as part of their cruel entertainment.

Sociopaths make up 25% of the prison population, committing over twice as many aggressive acts as other criminals. The reoffending rate of sociopaths is about double that of other offenders, and for violent crimes it is triple.

But not all sociopaths are found in prison. There is the less-visible burden of sociopath-induced emotional trauma which, if left unchecked, can lead to anxiety disorders, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.


Empathic people are natural targets for sociopaths - protect yourself -- Science of the Spirit -- Sott.net

Yes. Everyone deserves a second chance. Its not like I go around with a brush and paint people ‘good’ or ‘evil’ from nothing. It requires being hurt by a psychopath. Of seeing the pain they cause and the absolute lack of remore that they have- seeing how easy it is for some of them to exploit the forgiving natures of others- for me to even THINK about creating a thread like this.

I love the idea of everyone being redeemable. And I think they are if they truly truly want it. But I think other times- they just dont want it. Not really. And any offer to help is like jumping into a cage with a hungry lion. The lion isnt evul for attacking you- its just in the nature of the predator

Would you be aware if something like THIS was happening to you?

Many sociopaths wreak havoc in a covert way, so that their underlying condition remains hidden for years. They can possess a superficial charm, and this diverts attention from disturbing aspects of their nature.

The following case history illustrates how people can be systematically targeted until they feel they can barely trust their own sense of reality - what we call "gaslighting". Sociopathic abuse is targeted abuse. It can wreck lives. Victims can become survivors, but at huge cost.

At school, 'James' took a dislike to a classmate, 'Sam', who was sensitive and popular. He would mock him for auditioning for the school play or for getting upset over failing a test. The situation deteriorated when it became known that Sam's parents were separating. Sam appeared to be taking it with fortitude, to the admiration of his peers. He also got attention and sympathy from the school staff, especially James' favourite teacher: ie, the one he manipulated most easily.

James decided on a plan of covert bullying. He started a whispering campaign implying that Sam's parents were not splitting up, that he had said they were in order to seek attention. Sadly, this was all too successful and over the next few days Sam was met with silence and verbal bullying from his hitherto-supportive classmates.

James continued his campaign, targeting Sam's close friends over the next few days. They found themselves accused of misdemeanours such as sending offensive emails/texts. Then the 'favourite' teacher went on "leave with immediate effect" after accusations of assaulting a pupil. Where had the accusations come from? Guess.


What would you do if you were the victim of something like this? Something so subtle yet psychologically damaging... something that isnt blatant enough to necessarily call out- but is erosive to your sense of self.

What would you do if soemthing like this was happening to you... but you feared you wouldnt be listened to?
 

Fluffywolf

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Comment: Tragically, the shame and embarrassment of having been conned and duped often keeps people quiet about what happened to them, which then further obscures the machinations of the sociopaths and results in other people getting duped by them as well. If people got over this shame and embarrassment, they could network with others about these predators and then they would be exposed for what they are and less able to destroy the lives of others.

This is especially true.

Hopefully a time will come when there will be systems in place to take these people in and try to guide them on the right path at an early stage, before it is too late. Right now, it is absolutely true that society is ill-equipped to deal with these issues for a lack of proper and humane preventive institutions. They do exist, but far too many escape their attention until it is too late. Making it easier for people to report such behaviours, so they can be tracked and possible assigned therapy, if deemed neccesary, could potentially avoid a lot of harm. Unfortunately, these behaviours and people are often ignored and alienated instead, without any kind of repurcussions (other then them distancing themselves more and more from society).
 

magpie

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What would you do if soemthing like this was happening to you... but you feared you wouldnt be listened to?

It has happened to me. I feel like your question is rhetorical but on the off chance it isn't, it has happened to me, and through acceptance of my anger, fear, hurt, etc, I've come to a point where I'm able to understand and on some level forgive, and to view the perpetrators of those events as more than just the people who ruined my life. (I'm not saying you're a frightened victim. I'm saying that is how I felt. My experience.) I want the people who hurt me to become better and to be redeemed more than I want to figure out a way to press charges, because I feel it's healthier for me and the world that way.

I stand by what I wrote in my posts, though I understand and recognize that coping with the effects of abuse is a process and one where all emotions need to be accepted, and where a person needs to feel safe first and foremost, and that's okay. I'm not writing this to try and hurt or embarrass you. You just asked and it's confusing to reply to this thread because I feel like what I'm saying is being misinterpreted. It seems you feel like you're being misinterpreted too.
 

Lark

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We just have a disagreement on wether evil is inherent or cultivated. If you believe evil is inherent, and thus an entire country of nazi's just coincidentally were all born evil, what you said might ring true.

I just choose to believe evil is cultivated and that the vast majority of those people were not all evil people, but manipulated and coaxed into it.

Ironically, I believe my stance is exactly the opposite of your opinion. I believe splitting hairs about whether or not psychopaths or nazis are evil or not would lead to a better understanding of them and how they came to be and lead to better preventive measures to counter it as a force for good, rather than your opinion that something like that serves an evil agenda.


(Sorry, I kneejerked a little there by analyzing your words, but only as a response to your kneejerk :p )

Its both.
 

Agent Washington

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Psychopaths are clinically proven to exist, so I won't argue with that fact.

Outside of clinical psychopathy, limited or no empathy is also prevalent in other disorders, and it's divided into different types of empathy. Conscience is a different thing altogether, but I think with psychopathy and sociopathy they did specify certain cognitive processes that made it clear what the qualitative difference is.

And yes, empathic people do tend to be duped by sociopaths, psychopaths, and even narcs, because the idea that someone can have no empathy or conscience is beyond their understanding. More importantly, it's an instinctive thing, and more awareness may not even necessarily help them.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure one of my exes is a socio and I seem to have attracted another socio or two, on top of my now-ex being a narc (...I hate being empathic btw), except this time I'm not actually under the control and influences of said socios/narcs. It's "easy" to tell who's a socio and who isn't by analysing their behaviour. The problem is if you can't kick them out of your life, you can keep them like a tumour that won't grow too much too fast, but it's still fucking there. And it's important to acknowlege that being kind is something that you do for yourself, not for others, so that if they do backstab you, you're like "Well, I fucking knew that, I was kind because I thought it was the right thing to do, not because I expected them to be decent human beings."

I guess it's about maintaining boundaries and drawing the line so that even if you're taken advantage of, you won't be blindsided.

Psychopaths tend to have a lower functioning scale, and if they're more predisposed to violence, I'd book the shit out of there. Always look at their behaviour and how they treat others (including you). You can tell a lot about a person by how they act, and you can know absolutely nothing about a person from what they say.
 

Agent Washington

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As for redemption: Psychopaths, sociopaths and often narcs mostly don't feel the need to be redeemed, because they already think they're the shit. Redemption can only be done if someone wants to redeem themselves, sets themselves towards doing good, changes everything they've been doing, and acknowlege what they've doing is wrong, and don't expect others to forgive them just because they've changed.

You can't redeem someone who doesn't want to change.

It's also not the job of the victim to forgive.

Hang them, I don't care.

There are some that probably can see why they're doing harm, and choose to do "good", but it's hard to really know whether it's for show (makes their lives easier) or because they come to it on a logical basis, since their sense of morality is genuinely iffy. I don't really have anything against those, assuming they're genuine, which is a big assumption to begin with. This is one of those cases where you have to be tough and err on the side of caution. Being kind is a strength, but so is discretion.
 

Peter Deadpan

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What would you do if you were the victim of something like this? Something so subtle yet psychologically damaging... something that isnt blatant enough to necessarily call out- but is erosive to your sense of self.

What would you do if soemthing like this was happening to you... but you feared you wouldnt be listened to?

I was, and it really fucked me up for a few years. I lost all my friends in the process because he got to them too. I will never be the person I used to be again, but I will also never again be victim to such manipulation.

To get here, I had to step inside the mind of a sociopath, as best I could.
 

SurrealisticSlumbers

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I only met one self-admitted sociopath, and even then she said her therapist told her she had "sociopathic tendencies" and not the full-blown Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Something about wanting to watch someone die and expressing admiration for Ed Gein. LOL. She was... strange, but, nice to me.

I have heard it said that there are some small but distinct differences between a sociopath and psychopath; apparently, it is less of an issue to merely be a sociopath, and one can be a highly functioning sociopath. With this illness, a person can still be a decent person and a law-abiding citizen. I read excerpts of a book by a so-called antisocial (female) author whose sociopathy doesn't manifest in ways that those around her notice. Therefore she is able to lead a "normal life." This is a mental illness that most outside the prison population wouldn't be diagnosed with, because they are very good at concealing these dark traits, until something triggers them and they start to unravel, engage in more brazen illegal activities that land them in jail, and then they do receive an ASPD diagnosis. But it has to get to that point. A lot of those with personality disorders, funnily enough, fly completely under the radar of society until they commit crimes. I don't think personality disorders are at all rare, it's just that therapists are extremely hesitant to diagnose them unless the person is a threat to themselves or others.

I think the people we really need to watch out for in life are these malignant, clinical narcissists (who often experience psychotic episodes and delusions) as well as people with unchecked borderline personality disorder (which is UNDER-diagnosed in males, yet most males who abuse in fact have this mental illness, they just haven't received a proper diagnosis and treatment for it).

As far as "spotting" sociopaths (who don't come right out and admit they're a sociopath and/or psychopath), the signs might not be too obvious.

I have, in my life, witnessed the more sedate sociopaths - the ones who aren't predisposed to nastiness or violent. They'll try to manipulate you into doing things for them, or in some way attempt to get something from you. Extort money, for example. Try to control their environment (including you) like a master. And feel entitled to do so. The universe owes them something. In this way they're nearly identical to malignant narcissists. But they are less concerned with their own ego and more concerned with somehow gaining a foothold in an organization or social group, and manipulating it to serve their ends. People exist to serve them. A narcissist wouldn't necessarily have the swagger or social skills to do what the sociopath does.

And once again, many are quite friendly. They will try to extort money from ya - with a big ole grin on their face. Many salespeople and those who run scams (which mostly the elderly or uneducated fall for) are high-functioning sociopaths, and it is quite funny to witness their tactics. "There's a sucker born every minute." And that's precisely the mentality of these people.
 
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