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Alcoholism: Do you think or feel alcoholism and substance abuse is a weakness or

Jaguar

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oh geeze i didn't know having seizures from alcohol withdrawl was simply a sign of weakness

Years ago I used to watch a TV show called Dr G: Medical Examiner. I used to compete with myself to see if I could get the answer before she announced it as she called out what she saw in the autopsies. This one particular case interested me since it was a young woman in her 20's found dead on her sofa. As Dr G. moved through her body, she noticed she had pancreatitis which got my attention but I said to myself, "Relevant, but that's not why she died." It was when she said the woman had solid signs of regular alcohol use, that I figured out why she died: Abrupt alcohol withdrawal. When you have pancreatitis it can be painful as hell, and drinking alcohol will make it worse. That can lead a person to suddenly stop drinking to alleviate the pain. In her case, I figured it was too much for the body to take and she died right on her sofa. Later, the medical examiner came to the same conclusion.

I do not recommend suddenly stopping a medication, smoking, or drinking. As for the weakness comment, I tend to see value judgments like that from the willfully ignorant. Stupidity kills.
 

Sacrophagus

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Blame and control get murky on the subject. I've noticed, alcoholic or not (genetic wise), there's two types of people. People who drink until they get a buzz going and then think "it's time to stop drinking and wind down," and people who think "I need to drink more to keep this thing going." Both choices occur under the influence, some people just impulsively want to stop and some impulsively want to keep going. It's tough to parse consious control.

I mostly agree.

The thing with conscious control is that we can monitor our behaviors, realize they are bad, but still proceed and self-sabotage.

When the time to stop the behavior emerges, it is important to take note of that, but not take it as an excuse either. Quitting dead turkey is a bad thing for many, and it takes a strategy, a support system for those who need it, and mostly a really solid reason why you want to quit, otherwise, one will find excuses over and over. Props to those who can quit just because they want to.

I despise putting the blame on someone or something to justify why I can't do something. Either I can do it, or I can't. If I can't, it's okay to ask for help. We're responsible human beings.

I stand by calling it a weakness, but I also rather focus on how one can overcome it.
 

Maou

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I mostly agree.

The thing with conscious control is that we can monitor our behaviors, realize they are bad, but still proceed and self-sabotage.

When the time to stop the behavior emerges, it is important to take note of that, but not take it as an excuse either. Quitting dead turkey is a bad thing for many, and it takes a strategy, a support system for those who need it, and mostly a really solid reason why you want to quit, otherwise, one will find excuses over and over. Props to those who can quit just because they want to.

I despise putting the blame on someone or something to justify why I can't do something. Either I can do it, or I can't. If I can't, it's okay to ask for help. We're responsible human beings.

I stand by calling it a weakness, but I also rather focus on how one can overcome it.

I don't disagree with what you said here, but the reason I feel it is more like a mental illness is because most people who become alcoholics never had a proper support system to begin with. They can be aware of the problem, and not know how to ask for help. It might be weird to consider, but learning to be strong is a long process if you can learn at all. Just like you wouldn't tell a depressed person to just feel happy. You can't just ask an alcoholic to cope differently. They can't just quit, without first establishing the ability to. They have to fix their life first, to ease the transition. You can't build a support system out of nothing, and very few people can just stop cold turkey without one. It takes years, and for some it is impossible (lets be real).

Some people actually consider the fact they might be dead before they manage to do all of that, so why bother? I am sure a lot of people who choose to keep drinking are not weak, but rather they see no real reason to try so fucking hard to be sober. Life is a bitch, and what's the point of suffering through the tedious mundane ratrace bullshit sober?
 

anticlimatic

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I don't disagree with what you said here, but the reason I feel it is more like a mental illness is because most people who become alcoholics never had a proper support system to begin with. They can be aware of the problem, and not know how to ask for help. It might be weird to consider, but learning to be strong is a long process if you can learn at all. Just like you wouldn't tell a depressed person to just feel happy. You can't just ask an alcoholic to cope differently. They can't just quit, without first establishing the ability to. They have to fix their life first, to ease the transition. You can't build a support system out of nothing, and very few people can just stop cold turkey without one. It takes years, and for some it is impossible (lets be real). Some people actually consider the fact they might be dead before they manage to do all of that, so why bother? I am sure a lot of people who choose to keep drinking are not weak, but rather they see no real reason to try so fucking hard to be sober. Life is a bitch, and what's the point of suffering through the tedious mundane ratrace bullshit sober?
I think every person is born with a varied combination of weaknesses and indifferences. Strength is earned in life, mostly through failure and adaptation. I think it's important to keep in mind that indifference to something, like alcohol- for those that just don't care to drink because they don't enjoy it- is not an inherit strength, so someone else who enjoys alcohol- aka has a "weakness" for it- is not necessarily a weaker person than them because of that on a more macro and objective level.

Overcoming addiction requires a degree of strength that quite frankly is beyond most human beings, so I don't think any average person aught to be blamed for failing to do so any number of times. Just trying to is admirable enough.

Some people can just have a drink and be fine, but for others "one is too many and a thousand is never enough."
 

anticlimatic

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I figured out why she died: Abrupt alcohol withdrawal. When you have pancreatitis it can be painful as hell, and drinking alcohol will make it worse. That can lead a person to suddenly stop drinking to alleviate the pain. In her case, I figured it was too much for the body to take and she died right on her sofa..

My all time favorite musician- Townes Van Zandt- died almost the exact same way, on his couch, from alcohol withdrawl (heart failure), after surgery, new years day 1997.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Weakness can be involved on the path to alcoholism, but to say alcoholism is a weakness shows rigidity in thought and frankly, a weak sense of perception. I'm not sure why so many see this as a black and white discussion of either weakness or disease instead of being a symptom of weak coping mechanisms under the greater "diseases" of depression or trauma, which more often than not are synonymous in a sense.

Why is this still complicated to people? Oh yeah, because people need to feel superior.
 

Lark

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I think its a serious problem, label it whatever way you think will make it easier to discourage it, defeat its spread, reverse it as a trend.
 

Tellenbach

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Initially, it's an impulse control problem, but as the alcohol starts changing the biochemistry of your brain and other organs, it becomes a disease.

I think more scientists should be studying the addiction process; addiction is something that we should be able to treat much, much better than we are now.
 

Pinker85

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Wow there are still some people from before, how funky, it's been a while.

Being forthright, I realize about myself that I could definitely become an alcoholic so I avoid all drinking and all drugs. I was raised Mormon so mostly never drank, had the upbringing and carried it on for a long time then of all crazy gateway drugs kombucha did me in. I started to drink a bottle a day for health and realized one day I wanted to drink it because I felt less stressed from it ... since then I've had weird cravings for alcohol which I had never had before. I stopped drinking kombucha and avoid all alcohol.

I think some people are way predisposed to alcoholism and you can't know if it is you until often it is too late, unless you are very vigilant. It's better to just avoid drinking unless you really have a reason to do it. I am very prone to depression as well, so add in alcohol and if I hadn't been careful due to my upbringing, to be honest, I'd possibly be a drug addict on the street or something or that nature. Maybe I am too cautious about it due to my tendencies but I really am grateful for the environment of total abstaining I grew up in.
 

Pionart

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I think one can drink a fair bit without there being too bad consequences, such as not getting blackout drunk, taking breaks, and maintaining adequate nutrition.

I drank somewhat heavily for months, with a 10 day break, and no changes to my liver etc.

But of course it's easy for it to get out of hand, so monitor your usage closely.
 

Lark

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I think one can drink a fair bit without there being too bad consequences, such as not getting blackout drunk, taking breaks, and maintaining adequate nutrition.

I drank somewhat heavily for months, with a 10 day break, and no changes to my liver etc.

But of course it's easy for it to get out of hand, so monitor your usage closely.

I think you can escape the physical consequences for a while, particularly before you reach the watersheds of first 30yrs and then 40yrs, but why run the risk? At least this is what I believe today, I did not in my twenties, when I did have a tendency to drink heavily and some family members still do but I developed diabetes, not simply because of lifestyle or alcohol but its part of it.

Plus there is an expense associated with this, I dont think everyone spends like Disco Biscuit used to (he posted an epic bill one time on this forum, it was pretty epic) but I never smoked and have money, I rarely drink, and also have money, its one of the minor pluses about capitalism that if you make choices you can accumulate (very little but its still something) money for bigger personal spends instead.

That's a very modern take on it but there are earlier examples of broadly similar thinking, Epicurious (spelling), from whose name Epicurean derives, was reputed to throw wild parties but he was really all about the company or socializing, the dude drank water the whole time himself.
 

Tomb1

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I think one can drink a fair bit without there being too bad consequences, such as not getting blackout drunk, taking breaks, and maintaining adequate nutrition.

I drank somewhat heavily for months, with a 10 day break, and no changes to my liver etc.

But of course it's easy for it to get out of hand, so monitor your usage closely.

What I am hearing in your post is that you chose to drank heavily, and that no person or outside force compelled/coerced your choice to drink heavily. I think you would agree with me that its your choice and you are in command of going in that direction. For whatever reason you choose to drink heavily is nobody's business but your own. The whole weakness versus disease debate is a red herring. The only weakness is caring about what other people think about your choices or even just caring in general. At the end of the day this is what you chose to do and the decisions you made while drunk automatically relates back to your initial choice to drink. So long as you are not getting behind the wheel of a car, I don't see a problem with it. When you start to see it as a weakness or a disease, rather than your own life-affirming decision, then you've been weakened. If you can do it and get around the negative effects to your liver more power to you....and if you choose to continue and your liver eventually deteriorates because you drank heavily and you can look it in the eye, not give a shit and accept the consequences, having lived life on your terms...that is real strength.
 

Pionart

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What I am hearing in your post is that you chose to drank heavily, and that no person or outside force compelled/coerced your choice to drink heavily. I think you would agree with me that its your choice and you are in command of going in that direction. For whatever reason you choose to drink heavily is nobody's business but your own. The whole weakness versus disease debate is a red herring. The only weakness is caring about what other people think about your choices or even just caring in general. At the end of the day this is what you chose to do and the decisions you made while drunk automatically relates back to your initial choice to drink. So long as you are not getting behind the wheel of a car, I don't see a problem with it. When you start to see it as a weakness or a disease, rather than your own life-affirming decision, then you've been weakened. If you can do it and get around the negative effects to your liver more power to you....and if you choose to continue and your liver eventually deteriorates because you drank heavily and you can look it in the eye, not give a shit and accept the consequences, having lived life on your terms...that is real strength.

Well i do care about other opinions but i tend to go to spiritual sources. The bible does not prohibit alcohol, so then it's about how much is too much, and i balance medical information with the realities of enjoying getting drunk. Drinking is a spiritual thing for me.
 

Yuurei

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Whine whine whine. Victim victim victim-only of your own choices. Man, I wish I were so entitled to be allowed to make my own choices, and then blame others for them. Now that is fuckin privlege!

It’s true; I don’t know what leads people to addiction. Maybe it isn’t always a choice but getting help is.

And no, I don’t want to fucking hear it. I know some people here assume I have no experience with this. No, I just don’t talk about it much.
My Father’s life has been riddled with -and destroyed by- his own poor choices and refusal to get clean. He’s stolen from the family countless times, blown his 3.5k which he gets per month on drugs alcohol while living on the streets ( while my actually disabled law-abiding-ass get’s less than a 1/4th that and will never have enough to live on my own) sold the family home for drug money, threatened my Grandparents who have bailed him out countless times.
And now, sadly, no one will give him their number. ( He used to have them. I’d like to say I do not know how he lost them, but I’m pretty sure I do.)
No matter what they have done, I think it’s hard to imagine a family member cold, alone, and hungry with no one to turn to but at the same time we know we can’t help him. We know that letting him into our lives will drag us both down, and may in fact be dangerous because of the people he knows.
It kills me to think he may eventually want my number not to ask for money but to try and make amends, it does, but it would be a poor choice for me to contact him, just as it was his repeated poor choices what got him where he is.

The story is the same fir 90% of the people on my Mother’s side of the family; the addicts dead or missing while those who tried to help ( (ie my Mother) are left broke and too jaded to ever want to help another human being.

Yes, I’ve heard it all before “ Put yourself in their shoes”.
No, put yourself in mine; someone born with an actual disease, allowed none of this ‘ bodily autonomy’ you all take for granted, nor marriage, nor a home, or bank account. Someone who wants nothing more than to work and contribute to society yet who was the one laid off in ‘08, from her job through a company which supposedly contracted with the disabled-everyone but her was an alcoholic/drug addict. The boss flubbed their background checks for them, several of whom were drunk on the job or would go missing for weeks on a drug/alcohol binge and allowed to return with zero reprocusion.
Someone who, every time they have tried to ask for the slightest bit of help has been told “ No” because she answered “No” to the question “are you a drug addict or criminal”? and has to wander through the world not only jobless and homeless, but also hated and judged as a ‘leech’ and ‘ lazy’ while everyone shouts in her ears to feel bad for those who had help thrown at their feet time and time again, being lectured about 2nd chances while she wonders when she will have her first.
No, I don’t give a shit about those people who would squander so much privilege and help as if the world owed to them.
However to those who have/are putting in the work -and it is difficult-more power to them.
 
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Coriolis

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Alcoholism/substance abuse is certainly not a strength, any more than diabetes or poor eyesight is. Any judgment, however, should be focused instead on how the affected person handles that weakness. Do they pretend it doesn't exist, or use it as an excuse for not being able to do certain things, or do they address it as best they can, so it has minimal impact on their lives and others'? I have poor eyesight, for instance. I can go through life squinting at things and asking other people to read distant signs, thread my needles, drive me places, etc. Or, I can get eyeglasses that allow me to see relatively normally.

There are two flaws with this reasoning, one obvious, the other less so. First, as others have mentioned, the desire to address a health problem, whether substance abuse, bad eyesight, or anything else, is not enough. One must have access to the means of addressing it: an eye doctor and an optical shop; or a primary care physician and insulin, etc.; or a substance abuse treatment program/counselor. Access includes availability of the service as well as the means (money) to make use of it.

The less obvious flaw, and the distinction between issues like poor eyesight or diabetes, and substance abuse, is that the latter seems to affect one's own perception and judgment in a way that impedes addressing the problem. As the familiar 12-step programs advise: first, you have to recognize that you have a problem. This seems to be much harder with alcoholism and substance abuse than with other ailments. The stigma associated with them just makes matters worse. This applies to mental illness as well. None of this is a moral judgment on anyone, just an observation about cause and effect. Like the joke about how many psychiatrists it takes to change a lightbulb, "the lightbulb has to want to change". People with diabetes and poor eyesight have a much easier time accepting that they have a medical condition that needs to be addressed, and following up provided means are available.
 

Red Herring

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Alcoholism/substance abuse is certainly not a strength, any more than diabetes or poor eyesight is. Any judgment, however, should be focused instead on how the affected person handles that weakness. Do they pretend it doesn't exist, or use it as an excuse for not being able to do certain things, or do they address it as best they can, so it has minimal impact on their lives and others'? I have poor eyesight, for instance. I can go through life squinting at things and asking other people to read distant signs, thread my needles, drive me places, etc. Or, I can get eyeglasses that allow me to see relatively normally.

There are two flaws with this reasoning, one obvious, the other less so. First, as others have mentioned, the desire to address a health problem, whether substance abuse, bad eyesight, or anything else, is not enough. One must have access to the means of addressing it: an eye doctor and an optical shop; or a primary care physician and insulin, etc.; or a substance abuse treatment program/counselor. Access includes availability of the service as well as the means (money) to make use of it.

The less obvious flaw, and the distinction between issues like poor eyesight or diabetes, and substance abuse, is that the latter seems to affect one's own perception and judgment in a way that impedes addressing the problem. As the familiar 12-step programs advise: first, you have to recognize that you have a problem. This seems to be much harder with alcoholism and substance abuse than with other ailments. The stigma associated with them just makes matters worse. This applies to mental illness as well. None of this is a moral judgment on anyone, just an observation about cause and effect. Like the joke about how many psychiatrists it takes to change a lightbulb, "the lightbulb has to want to change". People with diabetes and poor eyesight have a much easier time accepting that they have a medical condition that needs to be addressed, and following up provided means are available.

I agree and would like to add that there is the additional problem of comorbidity with clinical depression and other mental health issues.

To those claiming it is a purely personal decision I would like to point out that it tends to affect your social relations and easily damages entire families.
 

Red Herring

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The comorbidity of alcoholism and depression is rather high and the risk of relapsing after detoxification is notably higher among patients with depression.

I have someone in my family who has been suffering from both for many years now. I don't think he has any chance of beating alcoholism before the depression (which has been going on and off for decades) is under control. He's been in treatment several times and knows more than anyone what's going on and what would have to be done because he's got experience as a fucking medical doctor AND a psychotherapist himself! But he just doesn't have the energy for it. When I ask him he says he'd need more will to live before he'd be able to do anything.

I vaguely remembered posting here before but not when or how much.

Update: He died of alcohol poisoning. Alone in his armchair, surrounded by bottles in a smelly, messy department. Impoverished. Living alone after many years of hardly any contact to his family and after the death of his last wife.

He was a medical doctor with additional degrees (and years of practice) as a psychoanlyst and psychotherapist. He knew all too well what was going on. He knew had a problem. He knew how it was likely to end. He knew what treatments were available. He had access to ressources. He went dry several times, for short or long stretches, but always relapsed. He had joined a selfhelp group. He had been in inpatient treatment for mental health issues at least twice during his life. During his last attempt at quitting He selfadministered medication to help with the withdrawel (medication He only had access to because his medical license never expired and he was legally his own doctor - which is also why he couldn't be sectioned into treatment). Whenever I tried to encourage him to try therapy again He said "you're right, but in order to do that I would have to muster some will to live". He had a careworker looking after his legal and financial affairs who thought he'd have to get dry in order to then possibly get psychotherapy while we as his family saw that he would never get out of drinking without first improving on his emotional wounds. In the end he was explicitely looking forward to death as life had little to offer him anymore. I will never know if the final, lethal alcohol poisoning was accidental.
 

GoggleGirl17

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I just think it's what some people do when they're used to living in a constant state of suffering and are desperate to distract themselves because they don't know how else to rid themselves of their existential pain. To me it signifies personal trauma and disappointment that was so internalized and prevalent in this person's life that is has created a very bleak perception of reality as well as the future, which caused them to believe that there is nothing better for them in life, and also that their emotional needs will never be met by other people because they have learned through experience to expect this. This is why they often see those with their same addiction as the ones who truly understand and care about them. They think the addiction is what gives them access to connection. So my impression is not that they're weak, it's that they believe they have no good reason to live.
 
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