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article on anti-depressants

Peter Deadpan

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The biggest issue I have and have always had with anti-depressants are GP's and other non-psych docs prescribing them with no CBT or other psych input or referrals. Except emergency situations, ED docs and nurses should absolutely be stabilizing patients but also involving emergency psych protocols. This way a treatment plan can be established. Either that or it's treat the symptoms and out the door. That's stupid but many times it's that or out the door to jail. Even stupider. I think money and education should be dumped by the truck-full for mental illness, it's easily one of, if not the largest health issue this country faces.

Please no one stop taking their meds because of a few idiot posts in this thread. Big pharma is a whole other matter.

I think we agree and I hope you did not think that my stance falls into the "idiot post" category. While over-prescribed or at least ill-prescribed (because of the lack of pairing treatment with CBT and such), antidepressants remain a useful tool for many.
 

Lord Lavender

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I strongly disagree with the notion that anti-depressants are useless as they have done wonders in people I know in my life . While they often alone dont address the issues and may not work for everyone equally they are a very important part of a treatment plan for people who have mental illnesses or even those who are just under undue stress in life They are in some ways like armbands in that they can help a person keep afloat even if nothing else will work.

As for why they are stigmatized by some I theroize it is as many cultures have a theme of being strong and self reliant and they may see someone taking them as a sing of weakness or that they show the person is somewhat "defunct" which is a thought process that will just isolate and cause people who suffer from depression and other conditions to spiral downwards.
 

ceecee

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I think we agree and I hope you did not think that my stance falls into the "idiot post" category. While over-prescribed or at least ill-prescribed (because of the lack of pairing treatment with CBT and such), antidepressants remain a useful tool for many.

No no, you did not make an idiot post, I'm sorry you got that impression.
 

Yuurei

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Ugh. I've seen so many more people complain a out being shamed then I do any actual shaming.

I eventually had to unfreind someone on FB because at least once a week she'd post something about telling someone to go outside is " discrimination."
And of course, guess what followed-an angry mob of people on snti-depressents attacking people who do go outside to feel better.
Of course this woman never tried. Just spent every minute of everyday on facebook, reading articles that she knew would make her angry.

Oh, and her 2nd most repeated meme was " Stop descriminating against Pomemon GO! Players! It's gets them outside and hekps with their depression!"

I do have some experience with medication, it wasn't positive. I did suffer severe depression for a few years, and they put me on drugs. But I was not clincallg depressed. Anyone would half a brain could have looked at my situation and said " Oh yeah, I'd be depressed too." As soon as as my living condition got better my depression went away. I bet this happens a lot " You're depression is legitomate, there is nothing mentally wrong with you...you need to change your life....but we don't want to put in that effort soooo : drugs."


My iwn veiws on this are, whatever works for you. In todays workd it is my personal believe that reason for such an incredibly numbers of anxiety and depression are because we sit inside all day staring at a computer, no human contact, no fresh air, no sunlight. I would highly reccomend trying to go outside at least once a day. It probably will help many people. But if you really do have some sort of issue that can truly be fixed only by taking drugs then for the love if God-yes, take them, by all means!
 

prplchknz

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Ugh. I've seen so many more people complain a out being shamed then I do any actual shaming.

I eventually had to unfreind someone on FB because at least once a week she'd post something about telling someone to go outside is " discrimination."
And of course, guess what followed-an angry mob of people on snti-depressents attacking people who do go outside to feel better.
Of course this woman never tried. Just spent every minute of everyday on facebook, reading articles that she knew would make her angry.

Oh, and her 2nd most repeated meme was " Stop descriminating against Pomemon GO! Players! It's gets them outside and hekps with their depression!"

I do have some experience with medication, it wasn't positive. I did suffer severe depression for a few years, and they put me on drugs. But I was not clincallg depressed. Anyone would half a brain could have looked at my situation and said " Oh yeah, I'd be depressed too." As soon as as my living condition got better my depression went away. I bet this happens a lot " You're depression is legitomate, there is nothing mentally wrong with you...you need to change your life....but we don't want to put in that effort soooo : drugs."


My iwn veiws on this are, whatever works for you. In todays workd it is my personal believe that reason for such an incredibly numbers of anxiety and depression are because we sit inside all day staring at a computer, no human contact, no fresh air, no sunlight. I would highly reccomend trying to go outside at least once a day. It probably will help many people. But if you really do have some sort of issue that can truly be fixed only by taking drugs then for the love if God-yes, take them, by all means!

yeah i find more shame from people online than i do in real life. like i live in a fairly conservative town and if someone says they take antidepressants save for a few assholes people are usually like why? oh for my depression/anxiety oh me too or i take blah blah. to be fair it's also a millitary and college town. so i've maybe been shamed and told only a handful of times that i don't need meds that my problems is i need to socialize and go outside and exercise. I do socialize and i do go outside. if i'm not doing well i'm probably too paranoid to be any use in the social arena. but online i've had it done constantly to me, saying that i'm just lazy that i don't need meds. I don't take antidepressants but rather anti-psychotics and a mood stabilizer.I don't exercise and I probably should, but i am lazy in that aspect.
 

magpie

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Most people are locked onto their antidepressants because the concept of a chemical imbalance absolves them of guilt and responsibility. So initially it goes like this:

"I'm depressed. I'm a mess. It's awful. What's wrong with me? There is something inherently wrong with me to make me this way and I'm just a horrible no good person no matter what. I hate myself."

Then that person is told they have a chemical imbalance. That's their "inherent flaw." But it's not their "fault" and "there's nothing they can do about it" but take meds. The above depressed monologue before the introduction of meds actually carries over into why people are told they need to take meds, and thus it perpetuates itself. In other words, the "something inherently wrong with me" stays, but the "it's all my fault" changes. This is what glues people to meds. They psychologically simply cannot unglue themselves because the meds themselves are simultaneously absolving a person of "guilt" or "wrongdoing" through the argument that they have a brain illness while also perpetuating the initial depressive idea that they have an inherent flaw or disease which is unchangeable and can never be changed without medication.

There's nothing that can't be changed. The brain is malleable and alive. It can be reshaped by working through your own shit. Everyone has a story. Everyone has a difficult life, or difficult parts of their lives, and that actually gives you so much potential. Because the more you have to work through, the more you can change for the better. Not because there is something wrong with you. There's no inherent flaw. But because it would make your life better. It would make you happier. The idea of responsibility for oneself doesn't have to have a blaming or accusatory tone. It's the ultimate form of freedom and power.

Antidepressants really are the easy way out and what's more, they are dangerous at worst and useless at best. You may as well self medicate with alcohol or heroin. You'd feel a lot better on those things too, so it would be worth it in that case, right?

We all know pain. We all know suffering and we know how soul crushingly horrific and unbearable it is. God does it hurt. The first desperate instinct is to fix it in the quickest and easiest way possible. That's what antidepressants are offered as. A cure-all. There is no cure-all for anything. It's a long, slow, hard process, with or without antidepressants, and there's no sugar coating how much it hurts. No one knows if they'll come out on the other side in anything. Yet here we all still are.

The dominant social narrative defends meds. Makes them seem healthy, safe, necessary. It manipulates the term "stigma" to the extent that it's now an Orwellian term which has lost all meaning and context. It's "stigma" for people to question the narrative. It's stigma for people to point out the lack of evidence in support of both antidepressants and the chemical imbalance theory. Because even though it's true, it's "discriminating against mentally ill people." And a lot of people with mental illness lap this up to their own detriment, because of the cognitive maze they're trying to navigate which I specified above. Because they need absolution and "if I have to suffer, at least let it not be my fault."
 

Jaguar

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BMJ said:
If 95% of serotonin is produced in the endocrine cells of the gastrointestinal tract, and the nutritional building blocks of all neurotransmitters (amino acids) are all absorbed in the intestine. This makes the gastrointestinal tract the primary organ to be looked at as a source and as a site of malabsorption of the nutritional ingredients of neurotransmitters (tryptophan and tyrosin).

No wonder most patients with mental disorders have gastrointestinal symptoms, the so called irritable bowel syndrome (but what irritated the bowel?). Most patients with fibromyalgia, chronic headache, and most patients with myalgic encephalitis/ chronic fatigue syndrome/ systemic exertion intolerance syndrome (ME/CFS/SEID) have symptoms that overlap with depression. Most such patients do have gastrointestinal symptoms, chronic systemic pains and subtle nutritional deficiencies such as vitamin B12 deficiency.

It is time that psychiatrists stop relying on an archaic manual and start searching for biological markers of mental disorders. A good place to start at, in my opinion, is the gastrointestinal tract, where 95% of serotonin originates, and all the nutritional building blocks of all neurotransmitters are absorbed.

Neurotransmitters: the link between depression, chronic fatigue and chronic pain syndromes | The BMJ
 

PumpkinMayCare

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I repped you this but thought it also needed to be said in the thread:

I agree I wish the stigma would die off aswell. Just because they don't work for us doesn't mean they don't work for others. I have people in my life who take antidepressants and do better on them and off like can actually get shit done, if they're on the right one.

I've already had practice as a clinical psychologist, since this is what I study, and it was easy to notice how many people are more or less dependend on their medication to cope with their mental illnesses. Telling them to go without them would mean for a lot of them to not be able to live their life at all, some suffer from such crippling depression, without anti-depressants they'd just lie in bed all day. How cruel is it to shame those people for taking medication? It bugs me to no end. Those kind of people really need an injection of a high dose of empathy.

The fact that I personally don't think I would try out another anti-depressant should I ever become depressed again *knocks on wood* isn't changed by that knowledge, however. I found therapy and the dramatic change in my mindset, that came with it, way more helpful to get out of my depression, but every person is different and therefor needs different solutions. At least that's how I see it.

Thanks for your rep!
 

magpie

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I've read about the gut brain connection too. Another theory is that it has to do with over-release of histamines, which are mainly found in the stomach as well. The stomach houses the majority of immune system cells as well as neurotransmitters (like the article says) and hormones. The funny thing about this is that it strongly supports the idea that people could help themselves a lot with dietary changes. Yet somehow no one wants to do that despite it being the simplest thing in the world to implement. They're not desperate enough to try everything in their power.
 

Tellenbach

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Interesting article on the link between Vitamin B12 levels and depression:

Can B12 Deficiency Cause Depression and Anxiety?

One of the most remarkable papers I have read in the psychiatric literature was about a 57 year old woman who was treated with months of both antipsychotic and antidepressant medications and given two rounds of electroconvulsive treatment before anyone bothered to check her vitamin B12 level.

Within two months of identifying her deficiency, and subsequent B12 treatment, she reverted to her baseline of 14 years previous, and remained stable with no additional treatment.

The author, Kelly Brogan (a licensed psychiatrist) also disagrees with the serotonin theory of depression.

If this is not a wake up call to the average psychiatric prescriber, I’m not sure what is. Much of what we attribute to serotonin and dopamine “deficiencies” melts away under the investigative eye of a more personalized style of medicine that seeks to identify hormonal, nutritional, and immune imbalances that can “look” psychiatric in nature.

She wrote a book about her protocol for treating depression. For those individuals who didn't get better on anti-depressants, Brogan's approach might be worth a look.

I think she has a point on hormonal changes because there are huge hormonal changes in women suffering from post partum depression.
 

PumpkinMayCare

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I've read about the gut brain connection too. Another theory is that it has to do with over-release of histamines, which are mainly found in the stomach as well. The stomach houses the majority of immune system cells as well as neurotransmitters (like the article says) and hormones. The funny thing about this is that it strongly supports the idea that people could help themselves a lot with dietary changes. Yet somehow no one wants to do that despite it being the simplest thing in the world to implement. They're not desperate enough to try everything in their power.

I suffer from a histamine-intolerance and even though I was on a histamine-free diet to treat it, I was depressed. If a person suffers from an over-release of histamines, he wouldn't be depressed, that theory is ludicrious. The level of histamines in our bodies changes daily and dramatically, too. So a person would have a lot of breaks of depression and then it wouldn't be a real depression, since depression can only be diagnosed if the depressed state lasts for at least two weeks straight.
Also, why that theory doesn't make any sense, if your body releases too much histamine, you'd have other symptoms, just like the one histamine-intolerant people have, but most depressed people don't. And last but not least - most people who have problems with histamine complain about being hyperactive and hyped up when having a histamine-attack. It's the same with me.

I study clinical psychology and suffer from a histamine-intolerance since I'm 13. I know that sh*t.
 

magpie

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I suffer from a histamine-intolerance and even though I was on a histamine-free diet to treat it, I was depressed. If a person suffers from an over-release of histamines, he wouldn't be depressed, that theory is ludicrious. The level of histamines in our bodies changes daily and dramatically, too. So a person would have a lot of breaks of depression and then it wouldn't be a real depression, since depression can only be diagnosed if the depressed state lasts for at least two weeks straight.
Also, why that theory doesn't make any sense, if your body releases too much histamine, you'd have other symptoms, just like the one histamine-intolerant people have, but most depressed people don't. And last but not least - most people who have problems with histamine complain about being hyperactive and hyped up when having a histamine-attack. It's the same with me.

I study clinical psychology and suffer from a histamine-intolerance since I'm 13. I know that sh*t.

Hi. I suffer from Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, which is an over-release of inflammatory mediators such as histamine, serotonin, cytokines, prostaglandins, leukotrienes, etc. These are all inflammatory neurotransmitters found in the gut, which is the where most of the immune system is located, and over-release of them creates an influx of inflammation in the body as well as the brain, since mast cells play a large role in the blood brain barrier (as well as the stomach barrier). Mast cell activation and histamine intolerance have been linked to a number of neuropyschiatric conditions including depression.

The link between inflammation and mental illness is currently being studied.
Infection, inflammation, and mental illness - Harvard Health

This one talks about infectious diseases mimicking mental illness, but the same general immune inflammatory response still applies. (I also have lyme disease since we're making qualifying statements.)
Scientists Theorize Inflammation May Trigger Some Mental Illnesses : Shots - Health News : NPR

I never said that all people with depression have a histamine / inflammation problem. Some do though and it's an idea worth exploring. Also, a change in diet isn't necessarily going to be a cure-all but it could and would certainly help for many many people.
 

Peter Deadpan

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This is a very interesting subject and I appreciate and acknowledge points from both sides of the argument. Gut health is imperative for mental health as it is the command center of the body. There is increasing evidence that we are ruled by our microbiome. Yes, even the brain is under it's command.
 

Jaguar

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I've read about the gut brain connection too. Another theory is that it has to do with over-release of histamines, which are mainly found in the stomach as well. The stomach houses the majority of immune system cells as well as neurotransmitters (like the article says) and hormones. The funny thing about this is that it strongly supports the idea that people could help themselves a lot with dietary changes. Yet somehow no one wants to do that despite it being the simplest thing in the world to implement. They're not desperate enough to try everything in their power.

Antibiotics are relevant, too. Think of your GI system as a manufacturing plant and the antibiotic as a tornado, wiping out everything in its path. (Even liquid preps for colonoscopies can screw up your "manufacturing plant".)
Here's something you will probably find interesting:

  • Asking your doctor for another antibiotics prescription? How just ONE course raises the risk of depression
  • Researchers at Tel Aviv University found that a single course of antibiotics boosts the risk of depression by around a quarter
  • And taking between two and five courses raises the risk by nearly half, they reported in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry


Experts say disrupting gut bacteria harms the way brain cells communicate


Read more: Just ONE course of antibiotics raises the risk of depression | Daily Mail Online
 

PumpkinMayCare

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Hi. I suffer from Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, which is an over-release of inflammatory mediators such as histamine, serotonin, cytokines, prostaglandins, leukotrienes, etc. These are all inflammatory neurotransmitters found in the gut, which is the where most of the immune system is located, and over-release of them creates an influx of inflammation in the body as well as the brain, since mast cells play a large role in the blood brain barrier (as well as the stomach barrier). Mast cell activation and histamine intolerance have been linked to a number of neuropyschiatric conditions including depression.

The link between inflammation and mental illness is currently being studied.
Infection, inflammation, and mental illness - Harvard Health

This one talks about infectious diseases mimicking mental illness, but the same general immune inflammatory response still applies. (I also have lyme disease since we're making qualifying statements.)
Scientists Theorize Inflammation May Trigger Some Mental Illnesses : Shots - Health News : NPR

I never said that all people with depression have a histamine / inflammation problem. Some do though and it's an idea worth exploring. Also, a change in diet isn't necessarily going to be a cure-all but it could and would certainly help for many many people.


I know what Mast Cell Activation Syndrome is and hope you're doing good despite it. But you wrote about the theory that depression may be triggered by an over-release of histamines, but now you say not all people with depression have a histamine problem, which is contradicting itself. Since not everyone who's depressed has a problem with histamine, it wouldn't make sense that an over-release of histamine is the cause of depression. Simple as that. ;)
 

magpie

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I know what Mast Cell Activation Syndrome is and hope you're doing good despite it. But you wrote about the theory that depression may be triggered by an over-release of histamines, but now you say not all people with depression have a histamine problem, which is contradicting itself. Since not everyone who's depressed has a problem with histamine, it wouldn't make sense that an over-release of histamine is the cause of depression. Simple as that. ;)

No, that's black and white thinking. Depression has many many different causes that are as different as the many types of people who have it. Depression isn't an illness in and of itself. It can be a symptom of an illness though, and it can also be due to life circumstances, environmental factors, diet, existential crises, the list goes on. Thanks for the well wishes.
 

PumpkinMayCare

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No, that's black and white thinking. Depression has many many different causes that are as different as the many types of people who have it. Depression isn't an illness in and of itself. It can be a symptom of an illness though, and it can also be due to life circumstances, environmental factors, diet, existential crises, the list goes on. Thanks for the well wishes.

It's not black and white thinking. But claiming depression is caused by an overrelease of histamine when most depressed don't have that problem just doesn't make any sense. Even more so when my mom has had worse histamine-related problems but never suffered from depression - and I know people with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome who never were depressed either. Why are those not depressed? Given that my mom is barely triggered by histamine itself, but more by those biogenous amines that cause the body to release histamine, she definitely should have been depressed, according to that theory. The thing is, histamine is needed for so many processes in the body, you can link it to almost every illness logically if you want to.

I see that problem in medical research a lot. Things are linked somehow and researches make a theory about it, claiming cause A has something to do with B process, it must mean something. But in our bodies so many things are linked with each other, without any proof you can't tell what influences what in which way exactly.

Of course it *could* be that histamine is one of the causes of depression, but let's be honest, a lot of things are possible, that doesn't mean they're real or make sense. It's just not very likely.
 

magpie

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It's not black and white thinking. But claiming depression is caused by an overrelease of histamine when most depressed don't have that problem just doesn't make any sense. Even more so when my mom has had worse histamine-related problems but never suffered from depression - and I know people with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome who never were depressed either. Why are those not depressed? Given that my mom is barely triggered by histamine itself, but more by those biogenous amines that cause the body to release histamine, she definitely should have been depressed, according to that theory. The thing is, histamine is needed for so many processes in the body, you can link it to almost every illness logically if you want to.

I see that problem in medical research a lot. Things are linked somehow and researches make a theory about it, claiming cause A has something to do with B process, it must mean something. But in our bodies so many things are linked with each other, without any proof you can't tell what influences what in which way exactly.

Histamine release may not trigger depression in everyone but it certainly does in some people. People's bodies react differently to the same things. We all have individual genetic patterns and states of health and different degrees to which we end up suffering from the same thing for a myriad of factors. That's all I can really say. You're still displaying black and white thinking.

Of course it *could* be that histamine is one of the causes of depression, but let's be honest, a lot of things are possible, that doesn't mean they're real or make sense. It's just not very likely.

You can write off anything as unlikely if you want to without even looking into it further. :shrug:
 

PumpkinMayCare

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Histamine release may not trigger depression in everyone but it certainly does in some people. People's bodies react differently to the same things. We all have individual genetic patterns and states of health and different degrees to which we end up suffering from the same thing for a myriad of factors. That's all I can really say. You're still displaying black and white thinking.



You can write off anything as unlikely if you want to without even looking into it further. :shrug:


Stop being so accusatory. You really need to calm down.
You can theorize and read upon it a lot, but without proof it's just that - a theory. A theory that doesn't seem very likely and even if you don't like it, that's my stance on that topic so far.
 

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Stop being so accusatory. You really need to calm down.
You can theorize and read upon it a lot, but without proof it's just that - a theory. A theory that doesn't seem very likely and even if you don't like it, that's my stance on that topic so far.

I didn't mean to be accusatory. Sorry to make you feel that way. Thanks for the discussion.
 
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