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Toxic Feminism

When you think "feminism", what do you think of?


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Deprecator

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This presumes people act rationally. It should be quite plain that they do not.
Women supposedly get paid less for the same work, and yet they're still not being hired more often because businesses across the board are irrational and not fully motivated to make money? I find it hard to believe that no sector within any industry was able to identify this supposedly irrational behavior in order to outperform the competition.
 

Coriolis

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Women supposedly get paid less for the same work, and yet they're still not being hired more often because businesses across the board are irrational and not fully motivated to make money? I find it hard to believe that no sector within any industry was able to identify this supposedly irrational behavior in order to outperform the competition.
It may happen on a case by case basis. I don't see a trend. It didn't work with blacks or any other group underrepresented in various industries/occupations, and it didn't work with women. From what I have read, though, most of the remaining wage gap is not due to men and women with identical experience being paid differently for doing identical work, though some of that probably persists.

I believe in the idea of equality but I think biological sexes are more complementary as opposed to innate equals. The differences in sex hormone distribution and sexual dimorphism contributes to certain subtle differences, on average. However, it doesn't mean one is better than the other.

That said, everyone should be entitled to all the same civil liberties.
Men and women are far more alike than they are different. Complementarity happens much more on an individual basis than by gender across the board, except in the instance of sexual reproduction. Physiological sex differences are undeniable in a statistical sense, but say very little about actual "macro" ability or preference. We will not know which, if any, of these are truly inherent until all external constraints have been removed, and we are still a long way from that, though we get closer with each generation.

Although, I dont think that equality needs to involve sameness and homogenizing, a lot of people seem to think it does, left and right, but I think that's a nightmare. I think the opposite in fact and some difference is a very good thing and deserves recognition instead.
There will never be sameness/homogenizing, because of the many individual differences that go well beyond anything related to sex.

Still waiting.

I agree with whoever said it.
You shouldn't have to watch what you say around women. You should choose to watch what you say around anyone - male or female - whose respect you desire, who you want to see you as a well-mannered and articulate individual. Of course, if you don't care to be seen this way, then shoot your mouth off at will. (My father and husband had no patience for crude, vulgar talk either. I suspect I learned my preference from the former.)

How does this work? Freedoms, opportunity and liberty should should be gender neutral, but the process of 'holding others accountable' should be gender specific?
You have never heard of "self-policing"? Professional societies, sports teams, friend groups, etc. do it quite often. You are confusing formal law and policy with the informal steps people take to improve their interactions with others and the environments in which they find themselves. More of the latter can often reduce the need for the former. That being said, I would encourage anyone who sees disrespectful, dangerous, or exploitive behavior to call it out, regardless of who is the victim and who the perpetrator.
 

Deprecator

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You are confusing formal law and policy with the informal steps people take to improve their interactions with others and the environments in which they find themselves.
You were able to identify my supposed confusion between formal law and social reform, just because I decided to ask about why certain forms of 'social accountability' would need to be gender specific?
I would encourage anyone who sees disrespectful, dangerous, or exploitive behavior to call it out, regardless of who is the victim and who the perpetrator.
Ah, yes, now this makes more sense. So is calling out unruly behavior a form of "holding a person accountable", or would your claim here not be all that consistent with the one below?
Men should be holding other men accountable when their conduct becomes problematic. Not women.
 

ceecee

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How does this work? Freedoms, opportunity and liberty should should be gender neutral, but the process of 'holding others accountable' should be gender specific?

This type of 'accountability' reminds me of WWYD: *woman sees other woman abusing a guy*.... "Hmm, maybe you did something wrong?" :dry:


Don't move the goalpost. Men holding men accountable dovetails perfectly with the other proclamations of men needing to do male activities and have male friends without being hassled by society. Self policing is also done by women to women. Please start a different thread about women abusing men, equal liberty and opportunity if that's what you want to discuss.
 

Jaguar

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You should choose to watch what you say around anyone - male or female - whose respect you desire, who you want to see you as a well-mannered and articulate individual. Of course, if you don't care to be seen this way, then shoot your mouth off at will. (My father and husband had no patience for crude, vulgar talk either. I suspect I learned my preference from the former.)

I don't concern myself with that type of superficiality.
 

Jaguar

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How does this work? Freedoms, opportunity and liberty should be gender neutral, but the process of 'holding others accountable' should be gender specific?

Cute, isn't it?
 

Lark

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I think toxic capitalism is a bigger problem than toxic feminism.
 

Yuurei

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Still waiting.

Why? You must have other things to do. As do I and my real life takes precedence.

Then say what you fucking meant. Having said that, my other post still stands. Should I pretend it's not true? No.

I did. Twice: "...make discriminatory or derogatory statements about at person in their presence."
".. bitching about "all women are lazy C**** who should get back in the kitchen."

...is the sort of language I meant.

I somewhat agree. I am known to tell a parent to "Mind your own fucking business." If they overhear me swearing in a public place they've decided to bring their children.
But general swearing is far from using slurs and a derogatory terms to a persons face.

"Treat X group as you would treat anyone" Implies that you treat most people with some basic respect to begin with. If you don't, then yeah, I guess it is asking for "special treatment" and I'd never ask anyone to be who they aren't.

My ONLY point is that it is a logical fallacy and a poor excuse.
It is pathetic for one with an "I'm a rebel I'll say whatever I want!" complex to make excuses. If your so brazen then own your shit and admit " Fuck you, I just don't care!""
 

Jaguar

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Why? You must have other things to do. As do I and my real life takes precedence.

Will complain: "That's not what I fucking meant" but not explain why when asked and waits 24 hours to post snark. Fabulous, dahlink. Fabulous.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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brawny-strength-has-no-gender-1200x630.jpg


I'm really surprised nobody has created a thread yet decrying this.

To be fair, I suppose some hay could be made of this coming from Georgia-Pacific, of all places.
 

Lark

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brawny-strength-has-no-gender-1200x630.jpg


I'm really surprised nobody has created a thread yet decrying this.

To be fair, I suppose some hay could be made of this coming from Georgia-Pacific, of all places.

Strength is good all around, I like that lifting has become more popular with both sexes.

I do think there are more bodyshapes among women than men and that strength can look different if that makes sense, I've known a few women who complained about how strength training did not give them the appearance they were looking for which was kind of impossible as they wanted a different shape as opposed to simply "shaping up".

Personally, I think it should be about how utilitarian strength and a hard physic can be as opposed to an aesthetic.
 

Jaguar

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Women supposedly get paid less for the same work, and yet they're still not being hired more often because businesses across the board are irrational and not fully motivated to make money? I find it hard to believe that no sector within any industry was able to identify this supposedly irrational behavior in order to outperform the competition.

Paying on straight commission is how you know who is worth a shit to begin with. Gender is irrelevant.
 

LucieCat

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If we consider the core idea of "feminism" to be the belief that people should receive equal protection under the law regardless of sex, I absolutely support it and think of it positively.

Though feminism can be used in other contexts too as a term. If used in another way, I'm not going to make a guarantee right now of my support or lack thereof.
 

Coriolis

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If we consider the core idea of "feminism" to be the belief that people should receive equal protection under the law regardless of sex, I absolutely support it and think of it positively.
The definition of feminism I use is this one, from a standard dictionary:

the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men

I have run into very few people who oppose it, though many can offer legitimate critique of specific advocates for it, or methods used to try to achieve it.
 

MyINFJness

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The term itself could be used rather dangerously to lump sum a variety of beliefs, positions, etc. What does it mean to be a feminist? I want to be seen as a fearless warrior. I also want to be a super sultry sex kitten. I want my fierce independence. I also want to admire the raw strength of a man and feel safe in the comfort of his protection. Not every thing in the world needs to be devisive.

- - - Updated - - -

The term itself could be used rather dangerously to lump sum a variety of beliefs, positions, etc. What does it mean to be a feminist? I want to be seen as a fearless warrior. I also want to be a super sultry sex kitten. I want my fierce independence. I also want to admire the raw strength of a man and feel safe in the comfort of his protection. Not every thing in the world needs to be devisive.
 

Lark

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The definition of feminism I use is this one, from a standard dictionary:



I have run into very few people who oppose it, though many can offer legitimate critique of specific advocates for it, or methods used to try to achieve it.

Liberal feminism.

Its fine I suppose but I tend to think that equality as sameness sucks. Uniformity. Androgyny. Grey Goo. Who wants that?

Lately I've begun to think of it as a unique problem with zero-positive personalities, Baron-Cohen's idea about zero empathy, systematizing psychology present in aspergers and autism.

The best versions of a more robust feminism I think are in literary and fictional sources actually, like Gate To Womens Country or Swastika Night, unfortunately they are much like a lot of political fiction, they tell a tale well but generally the truth of the matter or real world examples are hella sobering in contrast to the dreams of the authors.

Like for most of my life I've tried to identify with feminist causes, some of it seems basic, some of its libertarian as pertains to women, but I've also experienced the toxic variety first hand, its ugly, at least as ugly as many other varieties or equivalents I've encountered. So I cant identify that way anymore. I think some of the thinking is interesting, even helpful, at lot of it is not.

These days it seems like a lot of personal illness, troubles, trauma and issues are channeled into politics and public life, its not good for anyone, a lot of the time all it does is summon up and strengthen wraiths and specters which where just about dead, gone and forgotten too.
 

Lark

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The term itself could be used rather dangerously to lump sum a variety of beliefs, positions, etc. What does it mean to be a feminist? I want to be seen as a fearless warrior. I also want to be a super sultry sex kitten. I want my fierce independence. I also want to admire the raw strength of a man and feel safe in the comfort of his protection. Not every thing in the world needs to be devisive.

- - - Updated - - -

The term itself could be used rather dangerously to lump sum a variety of beliefs, positions, etc. What does it mean to be a feminist? I want to be seen as a fearless warrior. I also want to be a super sultry sex kitten. I want my fierce independence. I also want to admire the raw strength of a man and feel safe in the comfort of his protection. Not every thing in the world needs to be devisive.

What is the whole fearless warrior thing? It used to get condemned as a male fantasy at a time, back when feminists where more readily setting out a stand on being positively in favour of difference and talking about the greater empathy of women, an ethic of care etc.

While its one sided perhaps, there's some basis for it in recent psychological research too. The male warrior versus female carer archetypes based on empathy that is.

Although the fearless warrior thing is something that I've read feminists write about, it appeals to women and men, maybe its about courage, skill, strength, fitness or something, I remember reading about archetypes a long time ago and the idea of warrior-scholars or warrior-poets as archetypes and wondered why the "warrior" part was important and if it was equally weighted with the second part or not.
 

Coriolis

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Liberal feminism.

Its fine I suppose but I tend to think that equality as sameness sucks. Uniformity. Androgyny. Grey Goo. Who wants that?
You are not the only one who mistakenly equates equality with sameness. I don't understand the basis for this error as I don't see anyone making that claim. If anything, it is the opposite: removal of barriers, so every person, male or female, can be who they really are. Gender is just one of the many factors that make all of us different one from another. Removing gender-based restrictions, expectations, and programming doesn't change that at all, merely means people no longer have to suppress it to conform on the basis of gender.

Lately I've begun to think of it as a unique problem with zero-positive personalities, Baron-Cohen's idea about zero empathy, systematizing psychology present in aspergers and autism.

The best versions of a more robust feminism I think are in literary and fictional sources actually, like Gate To Womens Country or Swastika Night, unfortunately they are much like a lot of political fiction, they tell a tale well but generally the truth of the matter or real world examples are hella sobering in contrast to the dreams of the authors.

Like for most of my life I've tried to identify with feminist causes, some of it seems basic, some of its libertarian as pertains to women, but I've also experienced the toxic variety first hand, its ugly, at least as ugly as many other varieties or equivalents I've encountered. So I cant identify that way anymore. I think some of the thinking is interesting, even helpful, at lot of it is not.

These days it seems like a lot of personal illness, troubles, trauma and issues are channeled into politics and public life, its not good for anyone, a lot of the time all it does is summon up and strengthen wraiths and specters which where just about dead, gone and forgotten too.
No idea what a "zero-positive personality" is. Based on the definition I use and posted before, I don't think there is any toxic, ugly feminism, only some toxic, ugly feminists who are going about things the wrong way.
 

Lark

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You are not the only one who mistakenly equates equality with sameness. I don't understand the basis for this error as I don't see anyone making that claim. If anything, it is the opposite: removal of barriers, so every person, male or female, can be who they really are. Gender is just one of the many factors that make all of us different one from another. Removing gender-based restrictions, expectations, and programming doesn't change that at all, merely means people no longer have to suppress it to conform on the basis of gender.


No idea what a "zero-positive personality" is. Based on the definition I use and posted before, I don't think there is any toxic, ugly feminism, only some toxic, ugly feminists who are going about things the wrong way.

I'm not equating equality with sameness, that was my point I'm afraid.
 
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As Rimbaud said "the day when women will be equal to men it will be a total disaster".

Today it seems old fashioned to think "women are men' future" (I see some artists like Jean Ferrat or others who sing who used to sing/write such stuffs in my own language) .

Probably because women don't wanna feel like it anymore ;)
 
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