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Toxic Feminism

When you think "feminism", what do you think of?


  • Total voters
    97

ChocolateMoose123

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I should hate capitalism? Fuck that nonsense. I'd cheer my daughter all the way to being a billionaire, if that's what she wanted. If she got there with integrity, all is fine by me. As for highlander's comments, I recall Marmie trolling him about being a so-called misogynist and generally screaming her head off. If he has a subconscious picture in his head that women like Marmie=feminism, that would be unfortunate.

I mean. That IS feminism, also. That's the kicker. What does the reader take from it? As a man, it's not speaking for them really. It affects them in a way that they feel powerless by way they don't have a "say" in it and if you don't have the experiences that facilitate understanding - men just WONT GET IT and men will feel attacked. There's an aspect of that I understand fully because it blocks the connection to overall struggle...and everyone struggles.

I've had jobs where gender issues are moot. I just don't see it being necessary. I mean, if I stayed there I'd be like whatever. This issue just doesn't exist.

I've had other jobs and experiences where it's very apparent that decks are stacked against you because of what gender you are and when you go up against that the ethical way, you get kicked back down. If you go over the top, you get kicked down harder. You're ended. There's a middle ground where you can proverbially brown nose and use humor to get them to see you as "harmless" and therefore "one of them" and you know. Many women do that, I have, because you will be ostracized if you don't or your job is just gonna be miserable.

People start rumors and talk crazy shit and if you keep your shit to yourself, tough luck getting your reputation back. People who know you will vouch but...it's easy to manipulate impressions. That affects job viability. So now, you're not just doing your job you're putting your boot in asses. It has to be done. But this is due to being a woman? I mean this happens to everyone!! I don't know about that... If so, it's not for the reason of being a male usually. They don't go for the low hanging fruit. They'll be more honest in their criticism and as such, they won't have the ability to connect over mutal ex girlfriend experiences of being f*cked over and hey, she's a female - can't trust her, she's silly/frivolous...put that on me.

I don't hear guys complaining about this stuff. Oh wait. I have. My boss had to schmooze a business partner who was a woman and she was hitting on him. He couldn't tell her to kick rocks because he needed the deal. He had to figure out how to not be alone with her and jumped through hoops to do this. He was exhausted. He said this has never happened before what do I do??

I got you dude. Do you have me?

I have friends who have been mistreated by women and I have seen the same laws that feminists pushed to enact benefit these men. As it should.

I just voice my opinion at this "there's no discrimination" bullsh*t. Hey if you're lucky not to get it - I love that! Just don't put your rose lined glasses on me and negate my experiences. Which is what happens when these tired threads get made. If you don't want to vote along identity lines - don't. Just don't try to "fight" that by being purposefully obtuse about this stuff.
 

Rasofy

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There seems to be an implicit assumption that women have it worse, which rubs me the wrong way

Also, most feminists aren't exactly practical lol


All in all, it's not an entirely bad thing tho
 

OrangeAppled

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Yeah I think some feminism is toxic. The SJW brand that seems to dominate it now is very annoying. Sometimes it looks to me like everyone wants to be a part of some marginalized group so they can complain about how they have it so hard and how people discriminate against them. Whether it's their race, sexual preferences, gender identity, sex (including red pill men), people want some cause to crusade for. I feel like poeple are just angry and dissatisfied and fearful and want to pin it on something. Because it's anger and fear driven and coming from place of entitlement, it's destructive. For example, the extreme focus on rape looks like fear mongering, and I think some of these people need to cling to a boogeyman to pin their fears onto. As a woman, I don't go through life with a fear of being raped by random men...maybe it's true in other parts of the world, but not suburban America. Sexual abuse is probably quite rampant, but boys and men are victims too, and it's probably not "rape culture" so much as shame from it being within family or from someone trusted.

I think various forms of toxic feminism have always been around though. Even the roots of feminism had some toxic elements. However, some toxic aspects doesn't make the whole thing bad. It would be like deifining Christianity by the Westboro Baptist Church. The label is pretty broad umbrella for a variety of beliefs. I think feminism accomplished some positive things, and the basic idea that women are whole humans who want their individual identity and social accomplishments outside the home and should have equal opportunity for that is good. I think when people say they don't like feminism it can come across like they think women are inferior and should "go back to the kitchen". I admit that people really against feminism often appear to have a misogynistic streak, just as the SJW brand of feminism seems to hate white men. I voted that I have mostly positive associations with feminism because the term to me is not about women vs men or any of the more extreme ideologies associated with the term.

To me, in addition to the idea that women are whole individuals and not just extensions of men, feminism is more about femininity being regarded as equally important as masculinity. This isn't women vs men, but even valuing the feminine aspects of nature, feminine interests or talents (i.e. the arts), and feminine methods regardless of your actual sex.

I think women in the western world have equal opportunity in most ways, and what's left has it's equivalent challenges for men (i.e. men may face discrimination or some hostility in traditionally female jobs or roles). Pushing women towards traditionally masculine roles / jobs to secure equality kinda suggests to me that femininity is somehow inferior and women must be more masculine to be equal. Or that men must reject all femininity so it doesn't weaken them. The inherent misogyny is not about hating women, but a degrading of femininity as a force, period. It's evident in culture how everything is about achieving and doing and competing....feminine energy is pegged as lazy or too dependent. I think misogyny is often a fear of the power of femininity, thus wanting to keep it in an inferior position.

I'd rather see the positioning of feminine roles and jobs as equal in value and importance, as well as valuing feminine energy or methods (for lack of better term). Even within certain jobs and roles, recognizing that a feminine approach can be just as valid in a masculine atmosphere, or that a masculine approach is as valid in a job / role seen as traditionally feminine. I think that this removes the competitive aspect, because the current approach seems to suggest masculinity is toxic, and yet it takes and advocates for a very masculine approach in women, and then it becomes men vs women, but femininity is actually degraded by both.

With wage gaps I've heard it boils down to women not asking for the same money. I believe this, but also women are nurtured to be more cooperative than competitive. So people say women need to be more competitive, then they complain about how this masculinizes women... well then why aren't you rewarding the cooperative quality?

So that's a lot of disjointed thoughts.... Summary is I think toxic feminism kind of shoots itself in the foot because it too degrades femininity. And anti-feminist ideals or men's movements often shoot themselves in the foot by degrading femininity, perhaps as a poor strategy to regain the masculinity they feel has been stolen from them. Of course all this does is further push women towards masculine roles and methods and attitudes, etc.
 

Amargith

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Basically, this. ^
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Yeah I think some feminism is toxic. The SJW brand that seems to dominate it now is very annoying. Sometimes it looks to me like everyone wants to be a part of some marginalized group so they can complain about how they have it so hard and how people discriminate against them. Whether it's their race, sexual preferences, gender identity, sex (including red pill men), people want some cause to crusade for. I feel like poeple are just angry and dissatisfied and fearful and want to pin it on something. Because it's anger and fear driven and coming from place of entitlement, it's destructive. For example, the extreme focus on rape looks like fear mongering, and I think some of these people need to cling to a boogeyman to pin their fears onto. As a woman, I don't go through life with a fear of being raped by random men...maybe it's true in other parts of the world, but not suburban America. Sexual abuse is probably quite rampant, but boys and men are victims too, and it's probably not "rape culture" so much as shame from it being within family or from someone trusted.

I think various forms of toxic feminism have always been around though. Even the roots of feminism had some toxic elements. However, some toxic aspects doesn't make the whole thing bad. It would be like deifining Christianity by the Westboro Baptist Church. The label is pretty broad umbrella for a variety of beliefs. I think feminism accomplished some positive things, and the basic idea that women are whole humans who want their individual identity and social accomplishments outside the home and should have equal opportunity for that is good. I think when people say they don't like feminism it can come across like they think women are inferior and should "go back to the kitchen". I admit that people really against feminism often appear to have a misogynistic streak, just as the SJW brand of feminism seems to hate white men. I voted that I have mostly positive associations with feminism because the term to me is not about women vs men or any of the more extreme ideologies associated with the term.

To me, in addition to the idea that women are whole individuals and not just extensions of men, feminism is more about femininity being regarded as equally important as masculinity. This isn't women vs men, but even valuing the feminine aspects of nature, feminine interests or talents (i.e. the arts), and feminine methods regardless of your actual sex.

I think women in the western world have equal opportunity in most ways, and what's left has it's equivalent challenges for men (i.e. men may face discrimination or some hostility in traditionally female jobs or roles). Pushing women towards traditionally masculine roles / jobs to secure equality kinda suggests to me that femininity is somehow inferior and women must be more masculine to be equal. Or that men must reject all femininity so it doesn't weaken them. The inherent misogyny is not about hating women, but a degrading of femininity as a force, period. It's evident in culture how everything is about achieving and doing and competing....feminine energy is pegged as lazy or too dependent. I think misogyny is often a fear of the power of femininity, thus wanting to keep it in an inferior position.

I'd rather see the positioning of feminine roles and jobs as equal in value and importance, as well as valuing feminine energy or methods (for lack of better term). Even within certain jobs and roles, recognizing that a feminine approach can be just as valid in a masculine atmosphere, or that a masculine approach is as valid in a job / role seen as traditionally feminine. I think that this removes the competitive aspect, because the current approach seems to suggest masculinity is toxic, and yet it takes and advocates for a very masculine approach in women, and then it becomes men vs women, but femininity is actually degraded by both.

With wage gaps I've heard it boils down to women not asking for the same money. I believe this, but also women are nurtured to be more cooperative than competitive. So people say women need to be more competitive, then they complain about how this masculinizes women... well then why aren't you rewarding the cooperative quality?

So that's a lot of disjointed thoughts.... Summary is I think toxic femininity kind of shoots itself in the foot because it too degrades femininity. And anti-feminist ideals or men's movements often shoot themselves in the foot by degrading femininity, perhaps as a poor strategy to regain the masculinity they feel has been stolen from them. Of course all this does is further push women towards masculine roles and methods and attitudes, etc.

I agree with this mostly. You put that together pretty well. Just want to say that women who are in or drawn to traditional masculine roles or jobs aren't rejecting their femininity by doing so. I would hope they're being true to themselves or following their interest.

I don't care about what people think of women on their own time. If they value the feminine ideal, if they don't. I'm not representing all women and I can't. I'm representing myself. Who happens to be a woman. Don't discriminate or use that as a reason to be an a**hole. It's really that simple as much as it's complex.
 

lexiphanic

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Very late to the thread. I actually went to a muslim feminist rally, and I was in love. They were talking openly about how they can express the feminine in such a way as to make men softer and more pliable. Basically embody the goddess. And it bares true with scientific research. Guy's Te tends to be stronger than girl's, while girl's Fe tends to be stronger than guy's. Like if I have a girl in my life to bounce emotion off of, suddenly I'm in heaven. And my girlfriends will just call me and tell me their thoughts and bla bla bla, and then thank me and hang up. To me it's crystal clear. And I think when people understand these simply concepts that they connect EXTREMELY well.

I'm a hetero guy if it makes a difference.
 

Sacrophagus

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Very late to the thread. I actually went to a muslim feminist rally, and I was in love. They were talking openly about how they can express the feminine in such a way as to make men softer and more pliable. Basically embody the goddess. And it bares true with scientific research. Guy's Te tends to be stronger than girl's, while girl's Fe tends to be stronger than guy's. Like if I have a girl in my life to bounce emotion off of, suddenly I'm in heaven. And my girlfriends will just call me and tell me their thoughts and bla bla bla, and then thank me and hang up. To me it's crystal clear. And I think when people understand these simply concepts that they connect EXTREMELY well.

You're describing the epitome of natural dynamics. Sadly, not everyone can assume that role. It's something outrageously easy to learn and do, but you have people's Egos and self-made frustrations to hinder the process of everything.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I generally have a positive view of feminism, but am also aware that sometimes the women who speak the loudest about it are actually extremely dominant personality types who suppress other women. They are blind to how much privilege they have based on the natural dominance of their own personalities.

I personally think society is a complete mess in terms of gender relations. People coming from levels of privilege are not as likely to see it because girls who are upper-middle class and above who want to study do have many wonderful opportunities. They aren't suppressed in the way that others are. Physically beautiful women have a great many privileges that can become so normalized, it isn't seen as privilege, but they an also be dismissed as objects, so yes, their privilege is more complex.

When you start understanding dynamics among more suppressed demographics - those which are economically, racially, or otherwise suppressed, you learn that other forms of suppression take a stronger foothold. In the same way that poor white people are sometimes especially verbal in their racism because that's their last "leg-up", men from suppressed demographics can re-gain their lack of power by dominating the women in their sphere. There are pockets of religious subcultures in the U.S. and other "first-world" countries where women have little or no power. In some of these dynamics there are a few with natural personality dominance who learn to play the system and become even more aggressive in passive ways than anyone.

I grew up with a single mother as trailer-park trash and have spent a lifetime avoiding sexual predators, as did my mother, my sister, and other girls I knew. While it's true my career has encountered some disadvantage of sexism from men (often with a sexualized component as well), my main focus and issue is the prevalent sexual dangers men pose to women. I was smart and intuitive enough to avoid some of the damage. I don't feel like listing it here because every time I have made a list of the sexual predators I've encountered, someone comes along with banal mockery, which is another example of the predatory nature of gender dynamics still present.

So while I sometimes see privileged women on Facebook feeling victimized every single day for minute offenses, some of which I question the validity of, there are others whose lives and bodies have been brutalized by men who got away with it because the law never cared enough. I am not speaking of one case, or even two, but a pattern I have witnessed throughout my life of stalkers, molesters, highly entitled suiters, and rapists. I don't think that women are morally superior to men because I have seen moral atrocities from plenty of women. What I believe is that in any society, when there is allowed a power imbalance between ANY two demographics, then the one given the privilege and power over the other WILL by human nature commit harm and violation to those with less power. I believe in doing what is possible to end demographically based power imbalances to minimize subconscious entitlement for one individual to dominate another.
 

Lucy_Ricardo

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It's the actual word "feminism" that gives people pause. Just like with any other group, the radicals have attached a negative connotation that many can't look past. And every group suffers--jihadists make Islam look bad, the Westboro Baptist Church makes Christians look bad, the KKK makes white folks look bad, etc.

Some people believe that feminism is about recognizing that women are better than men. And for many feminists, that's so. But that makes them female chauvanists, which is no better than the men who think they're better than women.

I'm a woman, and I've had the privilege of good parents who never made me feel as if I'm less capable because of my gender. And when it comes to sexism, women can dole it out just as fiercely as men. I've learned that regardless of gender, everyone has strengths and weaknesses--to attribute success or lack thereof to gender is narrow-minded, ridiculous, and evidence of an inability to take responsibility for one's own actions and life.

Disclaimer: when I say all this, I'm referring to the gender equality debate in America. In many places in the world, women's lives and freedom are stripped from them simply because of their sex, and it's unthinkable. Women and men alike in America are blessed because we don't live in constant fear for our lives--that's something that people forget to be thankful for in our endless squabbling about fairness.
 

EcK

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I generally have a positive view of feminism, but am also aware that sometimes the women who speak the loudest about it are actually extremely dominant personality types who suppress other women. They are blind to how much privilege they have based on the natural dominance of their own personalities.

I personally think society is a complete mess in terms of gender relations. People coming from levels of privilege are not as likely to see it because girls who are upper-middle class and above who want to study do have many wonderful opportunities. They aren't suppressed in the way that others are. Physically beautiful women have a great many privileges that can become so normalized, it isn't seen as privilege, but they an also be dismissed as objects, so yes, their privilege is more complex.

When you start understanding dynamics among more suppressed demographics - those which are economically, racially, or otherwise suppressed, you learn that other forms of suppression take a stronger foothold. In the same way that poor white people are sometimes especially verbal in their racism because that's their last "leg-up", men from suppressed demographics can re-gain their lack of power by dominating the women in their sphere. There are pockets of religious subcultures in the U.S. and other "first-world" countries where women have little or no power. In some of these dynamics there are a few with natural personality dominance who learn to play the system and become even more aggressive in passive ways than anyone.

I grew up with a single mother as trailer-park trash and have spent a lifetime avoiding sexual predators, as did my mother, my sister, and other girls I knew. While it's true my career has encountered some disadvantage of sexism from men (often with a sexualized component as well), my main focus and issue is the prevalent sexual dangers men pose to women. I was smart and intuitive enough to avoid some of the damage. I don't feel like listing it here because every time I have made a list of the sexual predators I've encountered, someone comes along with banal mockery, which is another example of the predatory nature of gender dynamics still present.

So while I sometimes see privileged women on Facebook feeling victimized every single day for minute offenses, some of which I question the validity of, there are others whose lives and bodies have been brutalized by men who got away with it because the law never cared enough. I am not speaking of one case, or even two, but a pattern I have witnessed throughout my life of stalkers, molesters, highly entitled suiters, and rapists. I don't think that women are morally superior to men because I have seen moral atrocities from plenty of women. What I believe is that in any society, when there is allowed a power imbalance between ANY two demographics, then the one given the privilege and power over the other WILL by human nature commit harm and violation to those with less power. I believe in doing what is possible to end demographically based power imbalances to minimize subconscious entitlement for one individual to dominate another.

oh god. can people just stop saying everything is a fucking privilege.
Some people are better at X other are better at Y, others just suck at everything altogether and generally make life worse for everybody else. There's no need to add some kind of moral dimension to it with words like 'privilege'.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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oh god. can people just stop saying everything is a fucking privilege.
Some people are better at X other are better at Y, others just suck at everything altogether and generally make life worse for everybody else. There's no need to add some kind of moral dimension to it with words like 'privilege'.
Being born into wealth is not a privilege? Belonging to a demographic assumed to have greater skills is not a privilege? Being born with a genetically healthy body is not a privilege?

You can use the word "advantage" instead, but of course people are not born into an equal playing field. Some people have genetic, economic, and demographic advantage that others do not. Do you deny the existence of racism and sexism? Have you ever had someone assume something about you positive or negative simply because you belong to a demographic?

"Privilege" is not a moral term. It simply means an "advantage". Some people are given leeway in society. They do not get the same treatment for being chosen for jobs, for being punished for crimes, etc. This is a well established fact. If you disagree with it, then the burden of proof is on you to show that there are not statistical tendencies related to race, gender, or economic status.

priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Why is it so hard to admit the forms of privilege a person experiences based on society's assumptions? I belong to some privileged and some non-privileged demographics, as do most humans. There is also an overlay of individual variance. Society in general assumes some positive attributes and negative attributes about each person based on its underlying assumptions and prejudices. It takes objectivity to see what our advantages are and what our disadvantages are.

What is the point of denying the entire existence of racism or sexism, or any other kind of ism? That is a drastic and profound statement to disregard long and proven history of societal imbalances. I understand debating specifics, but if one dismisses the existence of these issues altogether, what is the line of reasoning, the specific data that this new idea is being based on? If the position is valid, it can be systematically proven. This is the thread to make that case.
 

Yama

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PSA because apparently a lot of people don't actually know this: we've been in the 4th wave of feminism for the past few years, not the 3rd. This is the kind of feminism most people are actually talking about when they talk about "Feminazis" and "SJWs"

Fourth-wave feminism - Wikipedia
 

Lark

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Someone started a thread on this that was kind of nonsensical so I thought I'd start a real one.

How do you feel about feminism? Are you for it, opposed or some other opinion? Maybe this has been talked about before but I was hoping to get some kind of vote.

I will provide my opinion. I have always been a person who believed strongly in equality. I have always been a supporter of women's progression and success in the workplace. I've been the same way with my kids. Those who know me IRL would attest to my actions which back up these words. I have always thought that discrimination in the workplace on anything other than performance is dysfunctional. I have always thought you should raise girls with an eye towards inspiring them to reach for the stars.

This all being said, when the word "feminism" comes up, I find myself having a strongly negative emotional reaction. I think it's a word that many people interpret differently and that many women appear blind towards the destructive factions involved. This is going to sound bad but when I think of the word, I think of some crazy bitch with a chip on her shoulder talking about misogyny, mansplaining, gaslighting, the patriarchy or some other drivel. I think about all the highly accomplished women in the world that don't feel the need to say they had to work twice as hard to get where they did and why the ones who aren't accomplishing things and complain in this way don't make something of themselves rather than provide excuses as to why they aren't able to. I don't think I would have noticed or cared about this if I hadn't been targeted by some women who have had a chip on their shoulder over the years or seen others targeted unfairly - characterized negatively because of they are white or male or made some money or express their opinions in a confident way. What bothers me the most has been those that silently watched behind the scenes, doing nothing while privately encouraging the crazy bitches that have attacked men unfairly or even been abusive towards them. I'm not sure I would have even have believed these things would happen if I hadn't experienced it firsthand because I am perhaps too much of an idealist. There is the small proportion of spoiled millennials that feel the world owes them a living and resent those who are in power - perhaps providing some convenient excuse as to why they are disadvantaged when maybe they should get off their ass and do something productive. Then there are those that lack the willpower, tenacity, grit or emotional intelligence to progress - all the while blaming their failings on someone else.

I wonder if women in general realize just how negative of a meaning this word has to a lot of men. I might be an aberration but I'm completely turned off. I wonder if women in general think it matters that people like me, who would otherwise be supporters, have been turned off for good by the dysfunctional extremists that many unwitting women appear to support.

I'm only one person. Maybe my experience is an aberration.

Didnt read the OP until now.

Got to say H that you're coming off as far more of a conservative hardliner than I'd have thought, sorry to hear about some of your experiences and hope its not an on going thing.

The word doesnt hold any of the trigger nature you've described there for me, although I think its interesting that you describe that because I think its what's happened with other words too, liberal, socialist, conservative, green, and I think its a negative development personally that this is the case. There's plenty of crazy to go around and you dont need to look too far to discover someone whose injury or circumstances or whatever have led to them nailing their colours to the mast as a (fill in the gap) and the very mention of a (fill in the gap) gets them hot headed.

As an antidote of a kind to this I'd recommend Andrew Vincent's modern political ideologies, I read it in the second edition I think, its maybe in the third or fourth edition, I dont know how much its changed but the earlier editions are cheaper than a coffee, that guy was able to write the fairest and best piece of political writing I've ever found. Seriously. It encouraged me to read all sides of any argument and consider points of view which were not my own, I know there's been other books that reinforced that thinking, maybe Mill's On Liberty, but its the principle one.

The thing about online culture and offline culture and how they interact, I think, has been entirely negative, there's a dose of books on that, Virtually You, The Shallows, Untangling the Web, all sit by my bed in my to be read pile at this very moment, none of them have much good to say, and I know they arent even the full story and probably pale in comparison to my own experience even, though I've been doggedly pursuing online discussion since the early days of bulletin boards and super moderated forums, charted the rise of console user input to the web and how that has changed things (majorly) and transposed the norms of "gaming" to every single interaction, including, unfortunately, "winner takes all", trolling, cyberbullying all that dross. In part its to do with the age groups involved.

Though there's a lot of other variables too, ones which can be pretty troubling to think about, people who cant take their perspectives out into the world take them online, sometimes that's the victims of crimes or other anti-social behaviour and unfortunately those individuals are easily enlisted in one cause or another by virtual recruiters, its not exactly the stories of online grooming by terrorists that you hear about but its a paler version of the same thing if you ask me. Most of the people involved are easy targets, largely because its unexpected.

I'm not sure about the millenial thing, I think this is something different in countries like the US to the rest of the world, maybe I'm fooling myself there but I read books like Generation Me and think about the people I do meet online and it seems pretty different from the picture of listless, apathetic and lazy people thinking the world owes them a living. That's a generational thing and an eternal refrain if you ask me. When I was 17 that was Generation X you were talking about not millenials and the script was the same.

In the UK millenials are going to have to work until about eighty to pay for other peoples pensions, with a shrinking pool of available jobs, generally in a service sector, which expects a great deal of servility as opposed to service (this is something really different to the US, I was amazed when I travelled there and contrasted it), they will have less benefits, less of a health service, less available housing (public or private) to rent, forget buying, they will probably have to pay to use ATMs, pay to look up their bank accounts online, pay to withdraw money, pay to deposit money and accept costs and charges for late payments which are greater or non-existent at present (thanks brexit).

That's all on top of continuing austerity budgetting by successive conservative governments meaning wages for public sector workers are repressed, jobs are cut or public services are not hiring, sometimes they are the main employer of graduates (like in NI they are) and a lot of other micro-industries or economies are dependent on those workers as consumers, so in turn the private sector isnt hiring either or at povery wages. Its a grim picture and resolving to become more optimistic about it doesnt change a lot.
 

Lark

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. Then there are those that lack the willpower, tenacity, grit or emotional intelligence to progress - all the while blaming their failings on someone else.

I hope this doesnt peg on to the last post as its long enough as it was.

Anyway.

I just wanted to ask what if they do lack those things?

What if they lack those things and dont blame anyone else for their own failings?

I hope we're not back to the day when parts of the population are considered "perishers" and simply should, well, perish. I'm definitely not attributing it to you H and I'm not saying that its everywhere and always the case but sometimes when I read tirades like that written by the successful it comes off as an exercise in self-congratulation. You wouldnt get a lottery winner standing up and saying, well, I attribute all this to my hard work buying tickets, picking numbers etc. or if you did people would think its ridiculous.

The sun screen song says not to congratulate or berate yourself too much, your choices are half chance, and I think its got something there.
 

Red Ribbon

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Why is it so hard to admit the forms of privilege a person experiences based on society's assumptions? I belong to some privileged and some non-privileged demographics, as do most humans. There is also an overlay of individual variance. Society in general assumes some positive attributes and negative attributes about each person based on its underlying assumptions and prejudices. It takes objectivity to see what our advantages are and what our disadvantages are.

What is the point of denying the entire existence of racism or sexism, or any other kind of ism? That is a drastic and profound statement to disregard long and proven history of societal imbalances. I understand debating specifics, but if one dismisses the existence of these issues altogether, what is the line of reasoning, the specific data that this new idea is being based on? If the position is valid, it can be systematically proven. This is the thread to make that case.

Just because one assumes a certain class is privileged, it doesn't mean that they are. And a lot of the times, the answer isn't to give more privilege to the less privileged people. The answer would be to level the playing field completely.

In India, we have something called the caste system, which is a form of social hierarchy. I'm a member of the highest of all classes and supposedly a smallest minority of people. Yet, I don't feel privileged because these days, I know several lower caste people who are better off than the higher castes. And then, historically, in the past, men of my caste had several privilages but the women were treated like cattle. They used to call us, 'the ones who remain inside.' Lower caste women lead better lives than we ever did. Yet, now the government has given special rights and privilages to the lower castes, like priority in employment and lower fee rates for educational institutions. This is like saying, if someone from the higher caste starves, it's okay but god forbid someone from the lower caste does.

I think this system is entirely flawed. This is the problem with using a word like 'privilage.' I was born into a good family and when I was in highschool, I had a friend who was from the lowest of all castes. We both got similar grades but the school gave her a free education because of her caste. I thought that was okay since her family was poor. But then, we applied for the same college and she got in while I didn't. Theoretically, I am more privileged because I came from a richer family but is it right for the university to do this? This is the problem I find with using privilage as an excuse.

I'm not denying that some people are more privileged than others. This is 100% true. So, it isn't wrong to give a helping hand to the less privileged. But doing it by stepping on the toes of the more privileged is just wrong. I think this was [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] 's point. Not sure though.
 

anticlimatic

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Why is it so hard to admit the forms of privilege a person experiences based on society's assumptions? I belong to some privileged and some non-privileged demographics, as do most humans. There is also an overlay of individual variance. Society in general assumes some positive attributes and negative attributes about each person based on its underlying assumptions and prejudices. It takes objectivity to see what our advantages are and what our disadvantages are. What is the point of denying the entire existence of racism or sexism, or any other kind of ism? That is a drastic and profound statement to disregard long and proven history of societal imbalances. I understand debating specifics, but if one dismisses the existence of these issues altogether, what is the line of reasoning, the specific data that this new idea is being based on? If the position is valid, it can be systematically proven. This is the thread to make that case.

Admitting privilege is super easy- giving a fuck about people who aren't you is the hard part. I can manage it with strangers I meet who are polite and friends and loved ones, but that's about it.
 

Starry

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You're describing the epitome of natural dynamics. Sadly, not everyone can assume that role. It's something outrageously easy to learn and do, but you have people's Egos and self-made frustrations to hinder the process of everything.



Wouldn't what you are describing as 'male and female natural dynamics' come naturally?

(I work in science and with children so yah...nurture isn't the answer)
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Just because one assumes a certain class is privileged, it doesn't mean that they are. And a lot of the times, the answer isn't to give more privilege to the less privileged people. The answer would be to level the playing field completely.

In India, we have something called the caste system, which is a form of social hierarchy. I'm a member of the highest of all classes and supposedly a smallest minority of people. Yet, I don't feel privileged because these days, I know several lower caste people who are better off than the higher castes. And then, historically, in the past, men of my caste had several privilages but the women were treated like cattle. They used to call us, 'the ones who remain inside.' Lower caste women lead better lives than we ever did. Yet, now the government has given special rights and privilages to the lower castes, like priority in employment and lower fee rates for educational institutions. This is like saying, if someone from the higher caste starves, it's okay but god forbid someone from the lower caste does.

I think this system is entirely flawed. This is the problem with using a word like 'privilage.' I was born into a good family and when I was in highschool, I had a friend who was from the lowest of all castes. We both got similar grades but the school gave her a free education because of her caste. I thought that was okay since her family was poor. But then, we applied for the same college and she got in while I didn't. Theoretically, I am more privileged because I came from a richer family but is it right for the university to do this? This is the problem I find with using privilage as an excuse.

I'm not denying that some people are more privileged than others. This is 100% true. So, it isn't wrong to give a helping hand to the less privileged. But doing it by stepping on the toes of the more privileged is just wrong. I think this was [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] 's point. Not sure though.
^Interesting and useful post.

This is an example of why I also said that debating the specifics of demographic imbalances is important. There are subcultures in the U.S. where women arguably have privilege over men. There is a very complex interplay of varying power dynamics in society. This doesn't mean that it all comes out equal in the end. You do have to look at each specific context, but those external societal assumptions do impact how an individual is permitted to live in a society. The power imbalances impose a constraint on individuals and so should not be dismissed as irrelevant. The complexity and variability of it should be addressed as you have done here.
 

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I'm not sure where I fall on this issue. I find that man hating, or the variant of SJW feminism where everything in reality is interpreted as oppression, is stupid. It seems like those people hold themselves back in their daily lives because they secretly feel inadequate for being women, and masochistically fill that role and complain about it often. However, I also understand that there are many, many people, both men and women, who are incredibly sexist. And it creates the necessity for these sorts of movements. I do not discount that perhaps these individuals who are SJWs have been the victim to sexism in their lives. The thing I take issue with is that we are aptly aware of inequality around women, but not men.

In general, our perceptions of others are fucked, and based on extremely subjective and weak reasons. I hear "that's a man's job" all the time, or "that's a woman's job". I hear blanketed statements about men coming from the same people who preach how not all women are the same, and all have their own great unique things about them, and do not belong in the kitchen. It makes me cringe every time I see feminist tabloids preach about "why does your man do X?" That is offensive on so many levels. No human being, man nor woman, is someone else's object. Also, it is foolish to assume that billions of people that make up a certain gender are all exactly the same, yet we somehow still think "Women are like X" and "Men are like Y" in given situations. Does this not compromise the individuality that many of these liberal individuals value?

I am a feminist in that I see both genders as viable as the other. I don't think women are incapable of doing things men are doing, and vice versa. How we teach our children is a BIG problem, IMO. We have very biased teachers and parents that tell boys that we are not allowed to be emotional, that we have to be strong always. This makes boys expressing their feelings turned into a bad thing. Giving the stereotype that men aren't as emotional as women. We internalize things to stay "strong". I cannot say what girls are told growing up, but from what I understand there are many such "gender roles" that are instated in women as a very young age too. EDIT: ​To add to this specifically, I think that possible jobs, or lifepaths we are told as children, really impact our visions of ourselves and others in this way. Creating the divide of things for "women" and for "men".

I know women who have gotten ahead easily, and it seems almost like reverse sexism. "Strong women" are taking the workforce by force in this upcoming generation, and many are moving up very quickly from what I've seen. This creates the issue of only promoting women, or people of color, to stay "PC"; rather than judging by actual ability. This is something I've heard firsthand from my friends in the military, or from friends who have overtly "PC" management teams. I do not think that anyone should be judged based on appearance. We should be judged based on what we can do. Promotions, educational and work success, should not be determined by a way we were born. By something we cannot help.

The issue is very muddy from an ethical standpoint. It all boils down to, for me, to treat all people equally, as you would like to be treated. There is no science for "you have to act X way around women". That objectifies people. Objectification of others, based on a feeling of the "other" (essentially people different from you in some way, unconsciously, mentally). This is what I fight for as far as equality goes. Recognizing the importance of the individual, not the objectifying factors.

I am a feminist in that I expect to be respected by everyone as a person, not as a gender, or hair color, or height. I expect equality from others with the exception of those factors as well. It's common decency.
 
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