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View Poll Results: When you think "feminism", what do you think of?

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  • I generaly think of it positively (please explain)

    33 37.50%
  • I generaly think of it negatively (please explain)

    21 23.86%
  • I'm admantly for it

    12 13.64%
  • I'm adamantly against it

    13 14.77%
  • I'm somewhere in the middle (please explain)

    18 20.45%
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Thread: Toxic Feminism

  1. #11
    Senior Member asynartetic's Avatar
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    I voted "somewhere in the middle," so I should explain.

    I naturally have an egalitarian, meritocratic approach to my views on, interactions with and dealings with people in this world. We can argue all day about whether egalitarianism is a valid philosophy or whether it is dead, but it just happens to be my own default approach and worldview that I always seem to fall back on.

    Feminism isn't good or bad, it enabled women to explore their full potential as hairless ape females. I do believe gynocentrism and hypergamy are real, but I don't see them as evils or something to be fought against, just as closer to the natural order of things before civilization was built up with its enforced roles and rules for male and female conduct. We are still a part of the animal kingdom, not some separate and higher class of beings. Does that make me a misogynist? Maybe by some people's definition, but I feel I've made it pretty clear in other discussions that despite my belief hypergamy and gynocentrism are real facets of humanity, I still believe in equality of opportunity for the sexes--this is, in my opinion, meritocratic and a classically liberal approach that truly respects individual liberty and agency, rather than seeking an engineered outcome that is unfair and artificial. I find most unfortunate that when feminism enabled women to break a lot of the old traditional roles and modes, men were not allowed to similarly break from those and in many cases are still raised feeling some responsibility to outdated conventions such as chivalry/male disposability. My biggest gripe with feminism isn't that it got women more rights and privileges, its that feminists often claim that their ideology will ultimately lead to a similar liberation for males, but I don't see that happening and it seems more a lip service than a real, deep concern or intent on their parts. Otherwise, onward Christian soldiers.

    It is what it is.
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  2. #12
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Falcarius strongly supports the idea of feminism, by that he means the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. It is clear that rightful or wrongly as things stand if he ever has children then any boy would have more opportunities than girls; he does not think that is right. Like all political advocacy movements there are going to be Froot Loops who are misandrists and do not want equality at all but rather supremacy. One cannot pick and choose what they equality over.

    At the same time Falcarius is not a fan of positive discrimination as not only is it damaging to social cohesion but it is also insulting to any minority group. In the developed world, women now face a lot less prejudices than they once did and are mostly hidden, especially occupational sexism( such as wage discrimination and glass ceiling effect) but not always with things like the objectification of women. He would rather work on breaking down the barriers women face rather than sticking-paster approach. Most of the major discrimination women face in the workplace comes down to ridged gender roles in the family home, and the fear employers have about what will happen if or when they become mothers. Half the prejudices against women probably would not happen if childcare and household management was shared between the sexes equally.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    I'd be more sympathetic to first world feminists if they personally took their values and ideology to places like Africa India Saudi Arabia etc and put their lives on the line defending them, but of course they don't and I have no sympathy or solidarity for selfish hypocritical luke warm 'talk much-do little' wimps.

    The first world needs feminism as much as the little pig who built his house out of bricks needs decorative ornaments on his handrails. If all pigs are truely equal then time can be better spent down at the straw house. Unless you grow a pair your values and ideology are worthless.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Melodrama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Someone started a thread on this that was kind of nonsensical so I thought I'd start a real one.

    How do you feel about feminism? Are you for it, opposed or some other opinion? Maybe this has been talked about before but I was hoping to get some kind of vote.

    I will provide my opinion. I have always been a person who believed strongly in equality. I have always been a supporter of women's progression and success in the workplace. I've been the same way with my kids. Those who know me IRL would attest to my actions which back up these words. I have always thought that discrimination in the workplace on anything other than performance is dysfunctional. I have always thought you should raise girls with an eye towards inspiring them to reach for the stars.

    This all being said, when the word "feminism" comes up, I find myself having a strongly negative emotional reaction. I think it's a word that many people interpret differently and that many women appear blind towards the destructive factions involved. This is going to sound bad but when I think of the word, I think of some crazy bitch with a chip on her shoulder talking about misogyny, mansplaining, gaslighting, the patriarchy or some other drivel. I think about all the highly accomplished women in the world that don't feel the need to say they had to work twice as hard to get where they did and why the ones who aren't accomplishing things and complain in this way don't make something of themselves rather than provide excuses as to why they aren't able to. I don't think I would have noticed or cared about this if I hadn't been targeted by some women who have had a chip on their shoulder over the years or seen others targeted unfairly - characterized negatively because of they are white or male or made some money or express their opinions in a confident way. What bothers me the most has been those that silently watched behind the scenes, doing nothing while privately encouraging the crazy bitches that have attacked men unfairly or even been abusive towards them. I'm not sure I would have even have believed these things would happen if I hadn't experienced it firsthand because I am perhaps too much of an idealist. There is the small proportion of spoiled millennials that feel the world owes them a living and resent those who are in power - perhaps providing some convenient excuse as to why they are disadvantaged when maybe they should get off their ass and do something productive. Then there are those that lack the willpower, tenacity, grit or emotional intelligence to progress - all the while blaming their failings on someone else.

    I wonder if women in general realize just how negative of a meaning this word has to a lot of men. I might be an aberration but I'm completely turned off. I wonder if women in general think it matters that people like me, who would otherwise be supporters, have been turned off for good by the dysfunctional extremists that many unwitting women appear to support.

    I'm only one person. Maybe my experience is an aberration.
    I think if more people studied/researched feminism, they wouldn't have such negative reactions to it. Feminism is equality, people are just afraid of the word because it has feminine/female in it, female connotations. That's kind of insulting, in general, and people should smarten up about it.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Melodrama's Avatar
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    I think of feminism as positive, because it's about equality, and I've already stated my piece in quoting @highlander (although my response was not directed at you!) -- it's plain and simple, I think so many people see feminism as negative because so many people don't understand. I wish people would admit they don't understand instead of thinking they are being attacked by feminism. Nobody is attacking anyone.

    Sure, there's shitty feminism (white feminism/all talk, no action feminism.) It's honestly a broad topic and I even admit, I am not a perfect feminist, nobody is. Everyone can learn something. I personally believe feminism should be intersectional, because feminism affects all of us, it's about equality.

    And don't ask me "why shouldn't we just call it equality" -- women are often underlooked for many things, as well as minorities. People need to stand up for each other and stick together, especially women. I'm generalizing, but women are often under-looked and under-paid, especially WOC. Women's rights are always attacked or trivialized, and it's always "What about the men? Not all men are like that!" When that's far from the truth. Instead of men saying "they aren't all like that", they should prove it by being a true ally and not spouting that kind of shit. It's fucking annoying.

    I'm not sure if I've made my point or not, I kind of go all over the place, but that's how I feel about feminism, I am massively for it. I thought it was just about women's rights (birth control, abortion), I thought it was being for same-sex marriage, I thought I was open enough as a person, and then I learned more and I'm still learning and I'm trying to be more open -- intersectional. It's really important.

  6. #16
    Senior Member asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteenly View Post
    Feminism is equality
    Egalitarianism is (advocacy for or doctrine of) equality. Feminism is the advocacy of women's rights. Sorry to split semantic hairs, but there is a distinction.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Someone started a thread on this that was kind of nonsensical so I thought I'd start a real one.

    How do you feel about feminism? Are you for it, opposed or some other opinion? Maybe this has been talked about before but I was hoping to get some kind of vote.

    I will provide my opinion. I have always been a person who believed strongly in equality. I have always been a supporter of women's progression and success in the workplace. I've been the same way with my kids. Those who know me IRL would attest to my actions which back up these words. I have always thought that discrimination in the workplace on anything other than performance is dysfunctional. I have always thought you should raise girls with an eye towards inspiring them to reach for the stars.

    This all being said, when the word "feminism" comes up, I find myself having a strongly negative emotional reaction. I think it's a word that many people interpret differently and that many women appear blind towards the destructive factions involved. This is going to sound bad but when I think of the word, I think of some crazy bitch with a chip on her shoulder talking about misogyny, mansplaining, gaslighting, the patriarchy or some other drivel. I think about all the highly accomplished women in the world that don't feel the need to say they had to work twice as hard to get where they did and why the ones who aren't accomplishing things and complain in this way don't make something of themselves rather than provide excuses as to why they aren't able to. I don't think I would have noticed or cared about this if I hadn't been targeted by some women who have had a chip on their shoulder over the years or seen others targeted unfairly - characterized negatively because of they are white or male or made some money or express their opinions in a confident way. What bothers me the most has been those that silently watched behind the scenes, doing nothing while privately encouraging the crazy bitches that have attacked men unfairly or even been abusive towards them. I'm not sure I would have even have believed these things would happen if I hadn't experienced it firsthand because I am perhaps too much of an idealist. There is the small proportion of spoiled millennials that feel the world owes them a living and resent those who are in power - perhaps providing some convenient excuse as to why they are disadvantaged when maybe they should get off their ass and do something productive. Then there are those that lack the willpower, tenacity, grit or emotional intelligence to progress - all the while blaming their failings on someone else.

    I wonder if women in general realize just how negative of a meaning this word has to a lot of men. I might be an aberration but I'm completely turned off. I wonder if women in general think it matters that people like me, who would otherwise be supporters, have been turned off for good by the dysfunctional extremists that many unwitting women appear to support.

    I'm only one person. Maybe my experience is an aberration.

    highlander...

    Just as a quick aside...

    Based on everything I've observed over the years... here and elsewhere... I've concluded that most INTJ males should not try and understand feminism by questioning feminists...or the chances they will end up exactly where you are...are extraordinarily high.

    All the NT males have a tendency to do this but the INTJs are the worst of it... Even when it is not your intent...you guys often come across as if you think yourself superior. It may be experienced as confidence to you all... but for the rest of the universe it can look a hell of a lot like arrogance. So here's what we've got...a male that communicates from a place of superiority/authority. Now let's add the way you aren't the best at interpersonal touchy feely shit...and we've got a male that appears to think he's superior...that is interrogating me. It looks and feels like everything the feminists are trying to put an end to and they take a defensive stance and the big downward spiral of misunderstanding begins.

    I'm not saying you wouldn't end up in the same place with the same negative opinion but it's difficult to know. Because I often saw this same thing happen with you I just thought I'd mention it.

  8. #18
    Senior Member asynartetic's Avatar
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    Should I delete my posts? I wasn't trying to seem superior nor was I thinking I was superior in making any of my responses to this thread. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Should I delete my posts? I wasn't trying to seem superior nor was I thinking I was superior in making any of my responses to this thread. Sorry if I offended anyone.
    What?...no. I apologize if something I said made you feel you needed to. Perhaps I came across too harsh and am rarely-to-never off-put by INTJs. But I have noticed this dynamic time and again and tidal (autocorrect sucks ass) today thought I'd mention it.

  10. #20
    Senior Member asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    What?...no. I apologize if something I said made you feel you needed to. Perhaps I came across too harsh and am rarely-to-never off-put by INTJs. But I have noticed this dynamic time and again and tidal thought I'd mention it.
    I know, your post just made me think maybe I cam across as arrogant, particularly in my response to @Thirteenly. It's not that I meant to dispute what feminism means to her so much that I was just splitting hairs. Semantics really, just a trivial nitpick on my part. It just occurred to me after the fact that maybe it came across different than intended.
    Smile, you son of a [BOOM]….YEEEEAAAHHHHHH!

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