• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Toxic Feminism

When you think "feminism", what do you think of?


  • Total voters
    97

anticlimatic

Permabanned
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
3,299
MBTI Type
INTP
A few observations:

1. Our constitutionally guaranteed free speech rights protect us from government control over what we say, not from limitations placed by private entities in private spaces. There has been much confusion on this as of late, both here and IRL.

When most people speak out for or against free speech it's typically less about legalities and more about moral principles-- the fundamental debate on whether or not it benefits or harms society and/or humanity. American law has 'freedom of speech' the first amendment, but american culture also has 'freedom of speech' the value. It's far from being as easily settled as simply looking to a sourced document for the answer.

Also the extent to which people are their thoughts and values is debatable (contingent on where exactly you connect the brain to the mind), but I lean heavily more your way in that criticizing a person's ideas and values does not equate criticizing the person.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Wells Fargo just named the first female chair of a major U.S. bank and there are people talking about MMA in this thread? Ridiculous.
 

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
Do you want to know what men think about or what men think you want to hear we think about.

I've had these same thoughts forever, I just never felt comfortable expressing them because of the obvious and titanic blowback I would get for it.

If the goal is to connect and I never feel comfy enough to ever say whats honestly going on in my noodle, we don't get very far.

I find that the more honest you are, the more progress you can make. If someone as nice as I troubles you, isn't it better to inquire why and ask what they really think?

That's the only way we get to know anyone.

Painful discussions were we lay bare our honest thoughts about others and open ourselves to understanding are how you get people with disparate views to come together.

It takes trust, and I trust you, but it takes two people.

There was a whole rapid fire of posts. Before I talk about the following, please know I'm not angry at you, or hate you, or anything. I was very blunt and did not mince words telling you what I thought, but that doesn't mean I've given up on you or dropped ties with you or anything like that. You apologized.. I accepted that apology, and simply ensured you were aware that the apology comes with the responsibility to know where my line is. You're cool, we're cool.

~~

I'm well aware what men think about with this situation.. You're not the first to express these thoughts. Definitely also more eloquently than some men.. I've had men tell me to become a dyke because I decided to jump into a group fight in my younger days. The idea of a woman fighting anywhere in their facinity is revolting to many men. Despite the fact society has dictated time and time again that knowing how to fight has been a very real life saver for women. There's a lot going on there, the complexity of things in society that bring men to the thinking styles they have.

And yes pulling a 200lb (before or after body armor?) guy out of an ASV is no joke. But I need to be able to have a convo where I can be honest about what I think to even get to the point where I'm willing to listen to you.

See, I don't need to trust someone to listen to what they have to say. I listen to strangers on the internet all the time--would I trust them in a true sense? Not at all.. but, I can still take a perspective and entertain it without thinking someone is personally attacking me. It's hard to do sometimes... Like I said, I have men telling me what I have already accomplished in my lifetime is impossible to do.. it is difficult to not take that personal, because I worked hard to accomplish those things. But, it isn't about me. Similarly, you've been quite honest in this thread, and I hope you continue to do so... but it is possible to listen to others even if you don't feel comfortable. It just seems like an excuse to not give the other perspective a fair chance. "trust" is a very subjective, vague thing.. it only becomes tangible when in a very particular situation.
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
2,240
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Some self-proclaimed feminists use the movement to assert superiority over others, but do not work to the benefit of other women. Often times, they engage in the kind of cattiness that holds other women back. I don't think it is intentional. Ime, they're just not very self-aware.

There should be an organization out there that gives merit badges to women for performing various types of feminist tasks. And there should be various levels of feminists too, like a God Level Feminist, a Silver, and so on. Is there something wrong with that idea, I wonder. Maybe there already is such a thing and I'm not aware of it.
 

DiscoBiscuit

Meat Tornado
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
14,794
Enneagram
8w9
There was a whole rapid fire of posts. Before I talk about the following, please know I'm not angry at you, or hate you, or anything. I was very blunt and did not mince words telling you what I thought, but that doesn't mean I've given up on you or dropped ties with you or anything like that. You apologized.. I accepted that apology, and simply ensured you were aware that the apology comes with the responsibility to know where my line is. You're cool, we're cool.

~~

I'm well aware what men think about with this situation.. You're not the first to express these thoughts. Definitely also more eloquently than some men.. I've had men tell me to become a dyke because I decided to jump into a group fight in my younger days. The idea of a woman fighting anywhere in their facinity is revolting to many men. Despite the fact society has dictated time and time again that knowing how to fight has been a very real life saver for women. There's a lot going on there, the complexity of things in society that bring men to the thinking styles they have.



See, I don't need to trust someone to listen to what they have to say. I listen to strangers on the internet all the time--would I trust them in a true sense? Not at all.. but, I can still take a perspective and entertain it without thinking someone is personally attacking me. It's hard to do sometimes... Like I said, I have men telling me what I have already accomplished in my lifetime is impossible to do.. it is difficult to not take that personal, because I worked hard to accomplish those things. But, it isn't about me. Similarly, you've been quite honest in this thread, and I hope you continue to do so... but it is possible to listen to others even if you don't feel comfortable. It just seems like an excuse to not give the other perspective a fair chance. "trust" is a very subjective, vague thing.. it only becomes tangible when in a very particular situation.

Well maybe I'm a different person than you, and my time here and its obviously intellectually stifling environment have written scars on my heart that makes it a little bit scarier to share whats actually going on in my head than say someone who knows that what their thinking is going to be appreciated by the readership here at large.
 

Starry

Active member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
Some self-proclaimed feminists use the movement to assert superiority over others, but do not work to the benefit of other women. Often times, they engage in the kind of cattiness that holds other women back. I don't think it is intentional. Ime, they're just not very self-aware.

There should be an organization out there that gives merit badges to women for performing various types of feminist tasks. And there should be various levels of feminists too, like a God Level Feminist, a Silver, and so on. Is there something wrong with that idea, I wonder. Maybe there already is such a thing and I'm not aware of it.

Really? How so? Do you have any examples of the cattiness that holds other women back? And back from what?

I'm asking because ime the exact opposite is true. To the best of what I can gather it generally appears to be a competitive strategy. Poor upper body strength may be to blame...but women tend to compete for male attention and affection in twisted ways...and most will not hesitate to use the suspicion and historical unpopularity of Feminism in an effort to make themselves more attractive. We're getting it from both sides now...the traditionalists and "the new equals" that incorrectly claim Feminism is against men alike. There's nothing like being called a man-hater every time the subject comes up!

Likewise, what are "feminist tasks"? I'm currently focusing on boys physical and intellectual activity needs in school and I see that as a "feminist task"...but what are they in your mind?
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
2,240
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Really? How so? Do you have any examples of the cattiness that holds other women back? And back from what?

I'm asking because ime the exact opposite is true. To the best of what I can gather it generally appears to be a competitive strategy. Poor upper body strength may be to blame...but women tend to compete for male attention and affection in twisted ways...and most will not hesitate to use the suspicion and historical unpopularity of Feminism in an effort to make themselves more attractive. We're getting it from both sides now...the traditionalists and "the new equals" that incorrectly claim Feminism is against men...alike. There's nothing like being called a man-hater every time the subject comes up!

Likewise, what are "feminist tasks"? I'm currently focusing on boys physical and intellectual activity needs in school and I see that as a "feminist task"...but what are they in your mind?

Oh, I didn't mean anyone here.

Back when I was working on my thesis, I had a lady spreading rumors that I was lying about writing my thesis, and using it as an excuse not to hang out with her and other people. I got some drama and harassment about it, and it wasn't something that I thought I should have to deal with when I was writing my thesis. She calls herself a feminist. Mostly I see her as someone who takes offense to everything and shuts down interesting conversations, and she's got a little posse of women who do the same. Other than that, I don't really see that she's done much to deserve the benefit of calling herself that. I don't think she'd ever go through any type of training to call herself an Official Level 5 Feminist, but I would. I could have a little card that I carry around in my wallet that says I'm a Level 5 Feminist and buy a special patch and shirt that only Level 5 Feminists could buy.

Your career is something more than a feminist task. Not sure what to call it.
 

SearchingforPeace

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
5,711
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Oh, I didn't mean anyone here.

Back when I was working on my thesis, I had a lady spreading rumors that I was lying about writing my thesis, and using it as an excuse not to hang out with her and other people. I got some drama and harassment about it, and it wasn't something that I thought I should have to deal with when I was writing my thesis. She calls herself a feminist. Mostly I see her as someone who takes offense to everything and shuts down interesting conversations, and she's got a little posse of women who do the same. Other than that, I don't really see that she's done much to deserve the benefit of calling herself that. I don't think she'd ever go through any type of training to call herself an Official Level 5 Feminist, but I would. I could have a little card that I carry around in my wallet that says I'm a Level 5 Feminist and buy a special patch and shirt that only Level 5 Feminists could buy.

Your career is something more than a feminist task. Not sure what to call it.

A recent article on women bullying women at work that seemed to support your posts: Why Women Bully Each Other at Work - The Atlantic

...
Her screed against the female partners surprised me, since people don’t usually rail against historically marginalized groups on the record. When I reached out to other women to ask whether they’d had similar experiences, some were appalled by the question, as though I were Phyllis Schlafly calling from beyond the grave. But then they would say things like “Well, there was this one time …” and tales of female sabotage would spill forth. As I went about my dozens of interviews, I began to feel like a priest to whom women were confessing their sins against feminism.

Their stories formed a pattern of wanton meanness. Serena Palumbo, another lawyer, told me about the time she went home to Italy to renew her visa and returned to find that a female co-worker had told their boss “that my performance had been lackluster and that I was not focused.” Katrin Park, a communications director, told me that a female former manager reacted to a minor infraction by screaming, “How can I work when you’re so incompetent?!” A friend of mine, whom I’ll call Catherine, had a boss whose tone grew witheringly harsh just a few months into her job at a nonprofit. “This is a perfect example of how you run forward thoughtlessly, with no regard to anything I am saying,” the woman said in one email, before exploding at Catherine in all caps. Many women told me that men had undermined them as well, but it somehow felt different—worse—when it happened at the hands of a woman, a supposed ally.

....

So I was a bit stunned when, for this story, she told me that she divides her past female managers into “Dragon Ladies” and “Softies Who Nice Their Way Upwards.” She’d rather work for men because, she says, they’re more forthright. “With women, I’m partly being judged on my abilities and partly being judged on whether or not I’m ‘a friend,’ or ‘nice,’ or ‘fun,’ ” she told me. “That’s some playground BS.”

.....

Yet, fairly or not, many women seem to share Shannon’s fear that members of their gender tend to cut one another down. Large surveys by Pew and Gallup as well as several academic studies show that when women have a preference as to the gender of their bosses and colleagues, that preference is largely for men. A 2009 study published in the journal Gender in Management found, for example, that although women believe other women make good managers, “the female workers did not actually want to work for them.” The longer a woman had been in the workforce, the less likely she was to want a female boss.

....

In 2011, Kim Elsesser, a lecturer at UCLA, analyzed responses from more than 60,000 people and found that women—even those who were managers themselves—were more likely to want a male boss than a female one. The participants explained that female bosses are “emotional,” “catty,” or “bitchy.” (Men preferred male bosses too, but by a smaller margin than the female participants did.)

In a smaller survey of 142 law-firm secretaries—nearly all of whom were women—not one said she or he preferred working for a female partner, and only 3 percent indicated that they liked reporting to a female associate. (Nearly half had no preference.) “I avoid working for women because [they are] such a pain in the ass!” one woman said. In yet another study, women who reported to a female boss had more symptoms of distress, such as trouble sleeping and headaches, than those who worked for a man.

.....

And indeed, it is hard to believe that women would hold a fierce bias against members of their own gender. Perhaps in part because it’s such a thorny topic, this phenomenon tends to be either dismissed (nothing to see here) or written off as inevitable (women are inherently catty).

.....

Her research suggests that women and girls are less willing than men and boys to cooperate with lower-status individuals of the same gender; more likely to dissolve same-gender friendships; and more willing to socially exclude one another.

....

Even levelheaded, feminist women can exhibit elements of queen-bee behavior at times, and they don’t have to be in senior positions. The biggest issue I heard about is what’s known as “competitive threat,” which is when a woman fears that a female newcomer will outshine her. She might try to undermine her rival preemptively—as happened to one woman I interviewed, whose work friend spread rumors that she was promiscuous and unqualified. Or she might slam her rival with demeaning comments, as has happened to seven in 10 respondents to a 2016 survey of women working in the tech industry. “I had two female colleagues who suggested I try to look ‘less pretty’ to be taken more seriously,” a respondent wrote. “One suggested a breast reduction.”
...

In my own experience, I have had wonderful female bosses, and a few poor ones. My favorite boss of all time is a strong confident ESTP woman. My worst bosses have all been men. I really enjoy working with and for women.

But I have observed pretty awful behaviors between women, especially to undermine each other for no apparent reason.

And the worst I ever saw was one woman who was so nice to all those at her own level but absolutely abused her secretary in the worst way. I felt really sorry for the secretary.....
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
A recent article on women bullying women at work that seemed to support your posts: Why Women Bully Each Other at Work - The Atlantic

In my own experience, I have had wonderful female bosses, and a few poor ones. My favorite boss of all time is a strong confident ESTP woman. My worst bosses have all been men. I really enjoy working with and for women.

But I have observed pretty awful behaviors between women, especially to undermine each other for no apparent reason.

And the worst I ever saw was one woman who was so nice to all those at her own level but absolutely abused her secretary in the worst way. I felt really sorry for the secretary.....

Yes, the ground breaking book was Odd Girl Out: the Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls by Rachel Simmons, here are some quotes, click on https://www.michigandistrict.org/sites/default/files/pdf/education/management/safety/OddGirlOut.pdf
 

Starry

Active member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
Oh, I didn't mean anyone here.

Back when I was working on my thesis, I had a lady spreading rumors that I was lying about writing my thesis, and using it as an excuse not to hang out with her and other people. I got some drama and harassment about it, and it wasn't something that I thought I should have to deal with when I was writing my thesis. She calls herself a feminist. Mostly I see her as someone who takes offense to everything and shuts down interesting conversations, and she's got a little posse of women who do the same. Other than that, I don't really see that she's done much to deserve the benefit of calling herself that. I don't think she'd ever go through any type of training to call herself an Official Level 5 Feminist, but I would. I could have a little card that I carry around in my wallet that says I'm a Level 5 Feminist and buy a special patch and shirt that only Level 5 Feminists could buy.

Your career is something more than a feminist task. Not sure what to call it.


Okay... I appreciate the example. I wouldn't associate this persons behavior with her claiming to be a feminist though. This is your standard bitch behavior and I've had similar done to me by all walks of woman. The SearchingforPeace article references feminists as if they are (almost) the exception when it comes to this sort of female bullying... stating near the bottom of it "Even levelheaded feminist women can..."...which is what I would expect. Again, feminists shun this kind of shit from all I've seen and heard.
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
2,240
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
A problem with feminism is that it is so undefined that it allows unqualified individuals, who don't really promote feminism, to use it to glorify themselves. A feminist organization should define it more clearly, provide a structured training program that can leisurely be completed, licensure of some sort, and a hierarchy. This would make it easier for actual feminists to educate and provide leadership to feminist sympathizers.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Back when I was working on my thesis, I had a lady spreading rumors that I was lying about writing my thesis, and using it as an excuse not to hang out with her and other people. I got some drama and harassment about it, and it wasn't something that I thought I should have to deal with when I was writing my thesis. She calls herself a feminist. Mostly I see her as someone who takes offense to everything and shuts down interesting conversations, and she's got a little posse of women who do the same. Other than that, I don't really see that she's done much to deserve the benefit of calling herself that.
On the most basic level, feminism is an ideology, specifically the notion that women should have the same rights, responsibilities, and opportunities as men. If you believe that, you can call yourself a feminist. After that, it is just like any other principle. Some people dedicate their lives to promoting them. Some people have the wherewithal only to support it in passing, as they go through daily life. Some people turn it into a crusade; others simply promote it through their own personal example. Others unfortunately claim the principle and act to the contrary - essentially hypocrites.

Remember, too, it is possible to be a feminist and an equal opportunity pain in the neck. The woman you mention here might fall into that category, and do this sort of thing to any/everyone.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
On the most basic level, feminism is an ideology, specifically the notion that women should have the same rights, responsibilities, and opportunities as men.

Too many don't even know that basic definition and what they are complaining about isn't even feminism.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
Too many don't even know that basic definition and what they are complaining about isn't even feminism.

Yeah, I think they should get over the fact they are attracted to men and stop hating on women.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
She might try to undermine her rival preemptively—as happened to one woman I interviewed, whose work friend spread rumors that she was promiscuous and unqualified. Or she might slam her rival with demeaning comments, as has happened to seven in 10 respondents to a 2016 survey of women working in the tech industry. “I had two female colleagues who suggested I try to look ‘less pretty’ to be taken more seriously,” a respondent wrote. “One suggested a breast reduction.”

So, guys can bang a lot of women without taking a hit to their rep, but if a woman bangs a lot of men she is "promiscuous." Is this 2017 or 1950? As for looking less pretty? Give me a break. Sounds like something a crazy person would suggest.
 

Yuurei

Noncompliant
Joined
Sep 29, 2016
Messages
4,509
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Too many don't even know that basic definition and what they are complaining about isn't even feminism.

What I see a lot of are anti-femenists just applying whatever uis convenient to the definition. Specifically, they like to put the cart before the horse.

ex

Anti fem: I saw an article that says feminists believe this is ridiculous thing!
Fem: That IS ridiculous and I don't think that way.
Anti-fem: Yes you do because you're a feminist so you believe this!
Fem: WTH? No, I don't. I don't anyone who does!
Anti fem: Uh huh cuz feminists believe this! I read it in Cosmos and all feminists read Cosmo!

..and at the point there just isn't a fucking thing you can say.
 

Edgar

Nerd King Usurper
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
4,266
MBTI Type
INTJ
Instinctual Variant
sx
A problem with feminism is that it is so undefined that it allows unqualified individuals, who don't really promote feminism, to use it to glorify themselves. A feminist organization should define it more clearly, provide a structured training program that can leisurely be completed, licensure of some sort, and a hierarchy. This would make it easier for actual feminists to educate and provide leadership to feminist sympathizers.

Feminism isn't a trademarked word so anyone can use it however they want. It's also one of those loaded words that you can never imply that you disagree with it - it's a magic word, if you will - and as with anything that has powerful magical qualities, eventually it falls into the wrong hands, to be used for something that it was not intended (going from advocating equality to advocating special privilege). Same goes for other magic words like "diversity" and "eugenics" (although this one is on the other end of the spectrum of magic words - you must never agree with it)
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
2,240
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Feminism isn't a trademarked word so anyone can use it however they want. It's also one of those loaded words that you can never imply that you disagree with it - it's a magic word, if you will - and as with anything that has powerful magical qualities, eventually it falls into the wrong hands, to be used for something that it was not intended (going from advocating equality to advocating special privilege). Same goes for other magic words like "diversity" and "eugenics" (although this one is on the other end of the spectrum of magic words - you must never agree with it)

You mean disagree? ....That is an amusing take on it.
 

Oaky

Travelling mind
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
6,180
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
It's nice to have healthy feminism.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
What I see a lot of are anti-femenists just applying whatever uis convenient to the definition. Specifically, they like to put the cart before the horse.
ex
Anti fem: I saw an article that says feminists believe this is ridiculous thing!
Fem: That IS ridiculous and I don't think that way.
Anti-fem: Yes you do because you're a feminist so you believe this!
Fem: WTH? No, I don't. I don't anyone who does!
Anti fem: Uh huh cuz feminists believe this! I read it in Cosmos and all feminists read Cosmo!

..and at the point there just isn't a fucking thing you can say.

Feminism is an important part of the history of ideas. In my opinion the key idea is the liberation of the less powerful, such as slaves, colonials, women, homosexuals, and children.

This does reduce the power of the more powerful, and as no one gives up power voluntarily, the more powerful resist liberating the less powerful.
 
Top