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What is the hardest thing about being a man?

Peter Deadpan

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A lot of what would made me angry had to do with when people perceived me a certain way that I didn't like; seeing me that way felt to me felt to be a betrayal of the basis for that relationship, as though what it was based on was false. If they perceived me as odd or different just like everyone else, then what was the point of it all? That really upset me.

I kind of sought out being different at the time, though; and I don't think I was accepting the consequences for that. I'm probably still a little odd, but it just is. It's not part of my identity anymore or anything. If I'm odd, it's no longer something that's unique to me alone, so I think somebody saying something like that to me would bother me a lot less.

Are you saying you felt like you were being judged as being odd?
 

Peter Deadpan

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This is another thing I've probably been guilty of :(

Thanks for sharing all of this with me. I'm learning a lot which is what I had hoped for. I'm really trying to understand ways men and women hurt each other so that I can grow as a person and future lover for someone.

Also, men need advocates. There isn't shit out there building them up. There is plenty tearing them down but no one sits down and talks to these men to see what's up.

There's a great documentary called The Mask You Live In that I highly recommend to everyone. It's about the emotional suppression of American men and includes stories of men in prison and how they ended up there through acting on their aggression.
 

Abendrot

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This is another thing I've probably been guilty of :(
Also, men need advocates. There isn't shit out there building them up. There is plenty tearing them down but no one sits down and talks to these men to see what's up.

A necessary evil, I think. This kind of stuff makes them tougher.
 

Abendrot

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That's exactly the dogma I'm trying to eliminate.

It is not a dogma. It is a different perspective.
I would start a debate with you, but I know better. We have different worldviews built from different axioms. No agreement can be reached.
 

Abendrot

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Essentially, the hardest thing about being a man is the concept of male disposability. Basically, men have no intrinsic value, and are perceived as essentially worthless by default. To gain value, they must contribute something of significant value of society. As such, men are always the last priority, and this leads to a lot of suffering. However, it is, again, something that I regard as a necessary evil, as it encourages progress, achievement, and self-improvement.

Women do not face this problem. The fact that they are the limiting factor in reproduction imbues them with a certain intrinsic value.
Still, I realize that they have a whole different set of problems: Their perceived value is heavily dependent upon their genetic fitness and physical attractiveness, a set of characteristics that they have little control over.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Essentially, the hardest thing about being a man is the concept of male disposability. Basically, men have no intrinsic value, and are perceived as essentially worthless by default. To gain value, they must contribute something of significant value of society. As such, men are always the last priority, and this leads to a lot of suffering. However, it is, again, something that I regard as a necessary evil, as it encourages progress, achievement, and self-improvement.

Women do not face this problem. The fact that they are the limiting factor in reproduction imbues them with a certain intrinsic value.
Still, I realize that they have a whole different set of problems: Their perceived value is heavily dependent upon their genetic fitness and physical attractiveness, a set of characteristics that they have little control over.

Why don't men have value? I guess I just don't see what led you to that conclusion. Also, reproduction is a 2-way street, so again I'm a bit confused.

Do you live in the US?
 

Peter Deadpan

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Apparently, it's a trope: Men Are the Expendable Gender. And from there, a lot of things trickle down, I suppose.

Wow, you picked up on that quickly. Or maybe I'm just a total idiot, but it just didn't translate for me.

But, I still fail to see the overall relevance to the thread. I mean, I guess I can sorta see the point the article is making, but I just don't feel that way about men and think it's an exaggeration IRL. And the biology of reproduction is irrelevant, unless... wait... So [MENTION=29457]Abendrot[/MENTION] - what you're trying to say is that you feel your value only exists if you procreate? (I think maybe you said that earlier, but I didn't really get it then either). Hm, that's an interesting perspective. I feel it's very self-limiting, but apparently it is how you feel so I'm not going to argue against it. That's actually really sad to me now that I think about it. I would hate for any man to feel invaluable just because he didn't have children.
 

highlander

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This isn't a topic I think about very much. When I have though, I have considered there is a lot more pressure to perform financially and that generally they are pretty unappreciated for the things they do.
 

1487610420

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I'm not a man, but I've seen some fucked shit happen to them.

One guy was a super nice guy... but fell in love with a crazy woman. They had a kid. Divorced soon after. He had to pay out so much money to her during the divorce already, even though she threw them into massive debt during the brief marriage, he was responsible for the debt she hid from him as well because the IRS dgaf. But she wanted child support too.. the judge granted both custody. She decided she wanted custody of the child. The child is too young to realize what they're doing. He worked and she was a SAHM so the kid was obvi very attached to her. So she accused him of sexual assault on the kid, and coached the kid to tell the police what happened. He was thrown in jail and arrested while they investigated, his face/name plastered on the local news (small town, EVERYONE knew) for it, everyone knew his ex was batshit, but something so grave and towards a man? ... There are people who still don't talk to him because apparently if you're a man pedophilia charges = automatically guilty. Honestly, the ONLY reason he is out of jail so fast is because she texted his friend admitting she lied about it and he did the right thing. He has to forever live with the embarrassment of not only his reputation being fucked... but seeing his own child accusing him of something his ex peer pressured the small kid into doing killed him inside. She keeps up with the lie too, despite him being out of jail, trashes his name any chance she gets, and sends the child to therapy for a sexual assault that never happened. AND even though he was proven innocent, the court STILL gave her custody "just in case". He has never been the same dude since, stopped talking to everyone, can't find a good job in his town so he had to move, is forever ostracized 'just in case' because people just assume the justice system wants pedophiles running around free.

Because he liked a girl and she thought he had more money than he really did. Not a wink of anything human in that woman's eyes.

I've seen other men with horror stories of young school age girls accusing them of sexual assault because they liked their teacher and hated that he didn't reciprocate. They didn't like the rejection, so they accused him of sexual assault to try to blackmail him into sleeping with her.

Having a lot of close personal friends that are male... Most of them are terrified to be left alone around peoples' kids lest they be accused or judged of being 'creepy' for simply liking kids without being a father themselves. Male teachers have to constantly very carefully watch what they say/do lest they be accused of anything inappropriate. It's just SO easy to do that to them. I think the fake sexual assault/rape claims and the custody battles are some of the worst things I've seen my male friends go through.

that's fucked up shit
 

Peter Deadpan

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This isn't a topic I think about very much. When I have though, I have considered there is a lot more pressure to perform financially and that generally they are pretty unappreciated for the things they do.

I think many women don't understand that men feel loved when they are appreciated and recognized for what they do, as well as encouraged to pursue their goals. Let's say a man does some work around the home, then mows the lawn, then later that evening tells her about some stressful stuff at work, and finally tells her that he's thinking about starting a side job to make more money and also be able to do something he enjoys. If she is even remotely distracted for whatever reason and doesn't intently listen to him and support his decision, then he will feel unappreciated and unsupported, which will lead to feelings of inadequacy masked as bitterness, anger, and withdrawal. She may not have intended to make him feel that way, but that's what happens. Then, she notices his distance and starts to wonder what's wrong and tends to try to fix the problem by trying to get closer to him, which only makes him withdraw more. Then, she gets angry and, well, you see where this is going. We've probably all been there in some fashion or another.

The solution really is as simple as learning about the opposite sex and how to communicate and offer the other a safe, judgement free zone.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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If she is even remotely distracted for whatever reason and doesn't intently listen to him and support his decision, then he will feel unappreciated and unsupported, which will lead to feelings of inadequacy masked as bitterness, anger, and withdrawal.

I don't think I would care about this. At all. But then, tbh, I'd probably be guilty of the same behavior. Anyway, what would be more important in a relationship for me would be the feeling of being understood. There are lots of other things I would like, but that's really key. Maybe that's unrealistic though. Maybe understanding of anyone doesn't come naturally, it has to be learned and acquired.
 

Mole

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The hardest thing about being a man is going into battle. It is a moment of truth: will I be brave or will I be a coward? Will I support my mates? And can I rely on my mates in the heat of battle?

Courage is the virtue that most becomes a man: we all ask ourselves, am I courageous or am I cowardly? And we ask this question of the man next to us in battle.
 

Peter Deadpan

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I don't think I would care about this. At all. But then, tbh, I'd probably be guilty of the same behavior. Anyway, what would be more important in a relationship for me would be the feeling of being understood. There are lots of other things I would like, but that's really key. Maybe that's unrealistic though. Maybe understanding of anyone doesn't come naturally, it has to be learned and acquired.

So if you were opening up about something you wanted to pursue that would make you happy, and she was on her phone looking at Facebook and just saying "mm hmm" while not looking at you, that wouldn't bother you? Especially if you had done a bunch of stuff around the house that day and you were finally sitting down to talk with her? Just wondering :)
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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So if you were opening up about something you wanted to pursue that would make you happy, and she was on her phone looking at Facebook and just saying "mm hmm" while not looking at you, that wouldn't bother you?

Much would depend on context. If I was in a funk for a long time and this thing made me feel good, maybe it would bother me. Otherwise, I'd probably just shrug it off as not being the right time or something.
 

Abendrot

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Wow, you picked up on that quickly. Or maybe I'm just a total idiot, but it just didn't translate for me.

But, I still fail to see the overall relevance to the thread. I mean, I guess I can sorta see the point the article is making, but I just don't feel that way about men and think it's an exaggeration IRL. And the biology of reproduction is irrelevant, unless... wait... So @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/29457.html" target="_blank">Abendrot</a> - what you're trying to say is that you feel your value only exists if you procreate? (I think maybe you said that earlier, but I didn't really get it then either). Hm, that's an interesting perspective. I feel it's very self-limiting, but apparently it is how you feel so I'm not going to argue against it. That's actually really sad to me now that I think about it. I would hate for any man to feel invaluable just because he didn't have children.

[MENTION=31637]Korvinagor[/MENTION]. Great find. I'd argue though, that it's much deeper than that: This trope trickles down from deeply ingrained cultural elements that humans have acquired over the course of their evolution.
The trope is indeed an exaggeration in real life, but only because we live in the wealthy and comfortable first world. The basic points still stand.

I live up North in Canada. If you're interested in the idea of male disposability, Karen Straughan (though she is somewhat biased in favour of men) can explain it far better than I can:


Reproduction is indeed a 2-way street, but again, because of cultural elements inherited from evolution, men have to earn value, whereas women have value by default. A corollary of this is that there is a hidden advantage for men, in that they have more control over their value.

Pair bonding in humans and the idea of societal value are very closely tied. It is my observation that a person's societal value is often inferred from the perceived societal value of their spouse. Because pair bonding tends to result in reproduction, having children is an indirect indicator of value. There is also a difference between societal value and self-value. I will never have children. This does not mean that I do not value myself.
 
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