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Off the Deep-End

nonselective vs. selective


  • Total voters
    10

Cellmold

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I have been puzzled after having emotionally open conversations with some people at how we still didn't connect. I have a friend who I think is probably eSFJ e6, but depsite spending long days doing volunteer work together, we have never cliqued. We have shared lots of ideas and experiences, etc, but there's something still very shallow about our connection. I also spent several weeks travelling with an ENFJ e3 friend and I still feel this wall with her. We both have been very open about many things. I always get this feeling that both of these women are nervous with me. They don't really get me. When I sense that someone else doesn't get me and is uncomfortable because of it, then of course, I don't feel connected to them either.

So I chose the second option. There is no conversation formula for connection, it seems.

I think there is probably a lot of negativity they are holding back cause Fe-stuff. They probably aren't being emotionally open, just talking frankly without feeling it.
 

OrangeAppled

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I think there is probably a lot of negativity they are holding back cause Fe-stuff. They probably aren't being emotionally open, just talking frankly without feeling it.

Ah, this is insightful. Yes, that might be it. I can really like some FJs, but I do click more readily with FPs. The emotional honesty aspect is a big thing for me.
 

Evo

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This is so interesting. I think I'm #1.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I'm not so sure I've always been this way, but lately it's been option 1. I feel like I've been blabbing about anything and everything to everyone recently, and I have felt deeper connections as a result. Maybe not SUPER deep, but more like.... this person is more of a friend than an acquaintance deep.

 

VILLANELLE

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Yeah, I guess this is what I was striving to convey in the first option. I was not sure if anyone would get it, but you did it seems. People in the first option can connect by sharing hobbies, emotions, thoughts/opinions/perspectives and the connection really forms when the listener really listens to them is willing to be there to hear you out/be understanding and accepting of that.

Completely. And, not to sound.. high on my horse or something, but I always want to be there for people and I tell them that, and I always mean it.
 

Dreamer

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Thank you so much for this. Honestly, I was worried that some people would be dishonest/unrealistic (intentionally or not) and pick the 2nd option more often because it seems "special snowflaky" since it has the word "selective" haha, especially since a couple of people have already told me that they weren't exactly sure what I meant in my descriptions.

It's too late to change it, but I am glad you got where I was coming from!

Ya totally! I thought the comparison was made rather clearly but I did hesitate since some did want more detailed descriptions. I'm thinking wait, IS there more to this or do I understand the two?? Haha

The split between what someone wants and what someone is, I feel, is more muddied than more people know. Unless you truly know yourself, how would you be able to differentiate the two so readily? :shrug:

Interesting question thoughts! Nice to see posts by you again :D
 

thoughtlost

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Ah, this is insightful. Yes, that might be it. I can really like some FJs, but I do click more readily with FPs. The emotional honesty aspect is a big thing for me.

It's great that you shared this line of thought of yours. It helped me think about other things in a different perspective.

I remember you once saying that you had an ENFJ friend who could go around connecting with anyone. I don't remember what you said exactly, but I am going to use that as a launching point to highlight the 2nd option in the polls. People like this (the ENFJ) can look like they are sharing a deep heart-to-heart with a person/friend/family member/whoever, but the truth is that the ENFJ doesn't consider that sharing deep. They aren't truly connecting and probably doesn't feel like the person can "get" them.

It's like ...on the surface, it looks like they have found a mate that really gets them because they are showing external signs of connection because both parties involved are being super sharing/expressive with each other, but it doesn't work that way for a certain set of people ...as they "express" more hidden signs of connection.

I also tend to fall into this pattern. This is the pattern I was thinking of when I wrote the 2nd option. People often tell me I am genuine (well, yeah... I am frank, like [MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] says. I'll tell you my deepest thoughts) and this can make them feel like they have connected with me and that I've connected with them because I am 10000% okay with them sharing their deepest aspects with me as well. My "lack of connection" has nothing to do with nervousness/uncomfortableness with the person. I just haven't felt "it" with that person ...even as I am telling them about deep things that society has deemed okay to share with someone you have a deep connection to.

Of course, if someone is sharing and you're made to feel weird about it or are judged negatively about it ...then no one will find that to be a good experience, but if a lack of connection is due to that ...then that's what I was getting at in the first option. My E4 friend is the definitely the 1st option. She'll connect/have a deep connection with anyone who is willing to be philosophical with her and let her have the conversations she wants and respond positively to that. Provided, that is still rare for her (especially since it is rare for humans to be analytical/think critically).

She has even said that it's not a specific person that matters, it's the kind of conversation she is having. She obviously won't connect with those who tell her that her interests/thoughts are weird and won't entertain her on the things she wants to talk about. It's the main reason she doesn't connect with her family ...it's because her family are not the type of people who talk about "deep" things and always wonder why she wants to thinks/talks about "that" stuff. If her family was more open/willing/wanting to have those conversations she would feel more connected with them. That is what I meant by the first option (and she was the inspiration for this thread AND the first option lol).

For that E4, there is a "conversation formula" that only works if the other person also wants to have those deep conversations and not think of her as weird/abnormal. Because of her, I realized that I didn't relate to that way of connecting.
 

chubber

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She has even said that it's not a specific person that matters, it's the kind of conversation she is having. She obviously won't connect with those who tell her that her interests/thoughts are weird and won't entertain her on the things she wants to talk about. It's the main reason she doesn't connect with her family ...it's because her family are not the type of people who talk about "deep" things and always wonder why she wants to thinks/talks about "that" stuff. If her family was more open/willing/wanting to have those conversations she would feel more connected with them. That is what I meant by the first option (and she was the inspiration for this thread AND the first option lol).

For that E4, there is a "conversation formula" that only works if the other person also wants to have those deep conversations and not think of her as weird/abnormal. Because of her, I realized that I didn't relate to that way of connecting.

Maybe her family keeps associating the things that she says as her beliefs when she is merely talking about the concept to explore it further in depth. For example: James Franco plays anti gay character in the film: I am Michael. Society goes and associates him with being anti gay, instead of the story that he is telling. Associations/Assumptions, people personalise everything.

:doh:

Perhaps I should say, different people personalise things differently, depending on their type.
 

OrangeAppled

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It's great that you shared this line of thought of yours. It helped me think about other things in a different perspective.

I remember you once saying that you had an ENFJ friend who could go around connecting with anyone. I don't remember what you said exactly, but I am going to use that as a launching point to highlight the 2nd option in the polls. People like this (the ENFJ) can look like they are sharing a deep heart-to-heart with a person/friend/family member/whoever, but the truth is that the ENFJ doesn't consider that sharing deep. They aren't truly connecting and probably doesn't feel like the person can "get" them.

It's like ...on the surface, it looks like they have found a mate that really gets them because they are showing external signs of connection because both parties involved are being super sharing/expressive with each other, but it doesn't work that way for a certain set of people ...as they "express" more hidden signs of connection.

I also tend to fall into this pattern. This is the pattern I was thinking of when I wrote the 2nd option. People often tell me I am genuine (well, yeah... I am frank, like [MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] says. I'll tell you my deepest thoughts) and this can make them feel like they have connected with me and that I've connected with them because I am 10000% okay with them sharing their deepest aspects with me as well. My "lack of connection" has nothing to do with nervousness/uncomfortableness with the person. I just haven't felt "it" with that person ...even as I am telling them about deep things that society has deemed okay to share with someone you have a deep connection to.

Of course, if someone is sharing and you're made to feel weird about it or are judged negatively about it ...then no one will find that to be a good experience, but if a lack of connection is due to that ...then that's what I was getting at in the first option. My E4 friend is the definitely the 1st option. She'll connect/have a deep connection with anyone who is willing to be philosophical with her and let her have the conversations she wants and respond positively to that. Provided, that is still rare for her (especially since it is rare for humans to be analytical/think critically).

She has even said that it's not a specific person that matters, it's the kind of conversation she is having. She obviously won't connect with those who tell her that her interests/thoughts are weird and won't entertain her on the things she wants to talk about. It's the main reason she doesn't connect with her family ...it's because her family are not the type of people who talk about "deep" things and always wonder why she wants to thinks/talks about "that" stuff. If her family was more open/willing/wanting to have those conversations she would feel more connected with them. That is what I meant by the first option (and she was the inspiration for this thread AND the first option lol).

For that E4, there is a "conversation formula" that only works if the other person also wants to have those deep conversations and not think of her as weird/abnormal. Because of her, I realized that I didn't relate to that way of connecting.

I don't relate to this e4 friend of yours either. I do feel a connection with some family and even friends even if I may not have discussed analytical or philosophical things with them or if I haven't opened up in a deep emotional way with them. Perhaps it is more of demonstration of loyalties over time. I really don't know what it is...

The two FJs I've referenced don't make me feel weird or abnormal. I don't know why they are nervous, and I suspect they are not always conscious of it either. Maybe they are coming from your perspective and think I can't understand them. Who knows. People often think I don't like them because I am not externally gushy, especially when compared with other women. They act like they are on eggshells with me; but in contrast, people close to me say I am extremely patient and easygoing (not critical or hard to please). I think it is people just not interpreting your energy correctly. That's what I mean when I say they don't get me...it's not a judgment from them, but like they don't sync with me somehow (or I with them).

I can't quite put my finger on it either. So the specific person seems to matter for me. I always chalk it up to "vibes" or "energy", the same mysterious thing that makes people romantically attractive to me (as someone can be right "on paper", but not do it for me in reality). I will feel we are on the same "wavelength", and it's not due to content of conversation necessarily.
 
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thoughtlost

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Maybe her family keeps associating the things that she says as her beliefs when she is merely talking about the concept to explore it further in depth. For example: James Franco plays anti gay character in the film: I am Michael. Society goes and associates him with being anti gay, instead of the story that he is telling. Associations/Assumptions, people personalise everything.

:doh:

Perhaps I should say, different people personalise things differently, depending on their type.

Totally see where you're coming from. She simply wants to talk about things in depth, not change anyone's opinion. That part is true.

For her, the issue seems more that her family just "don't think about things like that." So they have nothing to say about what she wants to talk about. or "that's weird to think about." And they leave it at that... and can't really engage them because the conversations she wants to have seem to be not of interest to her family. Although after meeting her parents, it's not because they mistake her words for her believes. ...they just don't wanna talk about it like someone wouldn't want to talk about a particular movie.

They show overt signs that they don't want to engage her ...so she doesn't to keep everyone comfortable and she feels disconnected with her family due to that.
 

Numbly Aware

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EDIT:: I was made aware that the choices were throwing people off by [MENTION=31348]RareBird[/MENTION]. Replace nonselective with conversation-based "deepness" and selective with emotional "deepness". Still do not know if these are better terms, but comment below to let me know how you understand it because people aren't getting my intended meaning.

Wow, I've been reading and what you have to say is pretty profound. (I'm complementing cuz I subconsciously think we could make a personal connection. . . Not in a "you're sparking my brain" #1 nonselective way?)

I realized that I'm more concerned about keeping close and serious relationships (not perfunctory ones). #2 selective?

There is a difference when I communicate "deep" topics, though. I am either expressing myself, or I am expecting the other to validate me. That is how I filter most people. When I am expressing myself, I'm drawing and scanning people, not really a personal connection. But, if I'm concerned about if the other party values me, I am making an personal connection from my side.
When the other party values my expressions or my feelings, I assume they have made an personal connection from their side. If I feel the same, I have found a close relationship, which isn't necessarily deep discussions, but usually are.
I search for others who validate my feelings, I guess. Then, I'd feel comfortable to show my deeper or vulnerable side.
(not when I'm in my only expressive mood... ehh self-explanatory)
Even when I'm expressing myself, a small part of me wants to be validated... And when I want to be validated a small part of me wants to express myself.
 
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Cellmold

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I don't relate to this e4 friend of yours either. I do feel a connection with some family and even friends even if I may not have discussed analytical or philosophical things with them or if I haven't opened up in a deep emotional way with them. Perhaps it is more of demonstration of loyalties over time. I really don't know what it is...

The two FJs I've referenced don't make me feel weird or abnormal. I don't know why they are nervous, and I suspect they are not always conscious of it either. Maybe they are coming from your perspective and think I can't understand them. Who knows. People often think I don't like them because I am not externally gushy, especially when compared with other women. They act like they are on eggshells with me; but in contrast, people close to me say I am extremely patient and easygoing (not critical or hard to please). I think it is people just not interpreting your energy correctly. That's what I mean when I say they don't get me...it's not a judgment from them, but like they sync with me somehow (or I with them).

I can't quite put my finger on it either. So the specific person seems to matter for me. I always chalk it up to "vibes" or "energy", the same mysterious thing that makes people romantically attractive to me (as someone can be right "on paper", but not do it for me in reality). I will feel we are on the same "wavelength", and it's not due to content of conversation necessarily.

I could be wrong about this but i always perceive a (perhaps unintentional or not-quite-conscious as you mentioned) strategy element to Fe.

Getting to know people Fe-style is partly about acquiring information to understand what it is that person needs (or is upset/pleased by) in order to alter behaviour in relation to the person. It's a bad mirror effect that means you see them in a different light across interpersonal relations with each different group or person. Everyone does it of course to some extent, but I think with stronger Fe preferences it becomes more noticable. ***

When that urge meets those who are not openly expressive then there is a certain suspicion and anxiety about what that less expressive person may be thinking. It's buried deeply as a caring of what other people think and they may not even be fully aware that they do care in a self-conscious manner; they are more likely to just see themselves as extensions of an emotional setting (which isn't as depersonalising as that implies, in fact great self-worth can be gained by Fe dominants from integrating well with communal aspects of a setting).

But I think alone time and self-examination is the only alleviation for this kind of issue. Unfortunately while I try not to conflate typology with any kind of skill set (if anything it's not aptitude but aptitude interest and the emotional investment that goes with it which could explain typological skill tendencies) Fe-dominants are less prone to introspection, primarily because they spend so much time getting involved and not leaving themselves room to breathe.

As is often the case, the areas people avoid the most are the ones they probably need to be looking at the most. Although that examination for Fe-doms can take an overly critical and self-annihilating form.

But I'll let Mr Peanutbutter illustrate the point (even if he is an unfair exaggeration of an Fe dominant type, and in this scene kind of presenting an inferior Ti view of his own version of existence as thoughtless nihilsm****...#metastuff):


***Whether or not this effect is part of a larger issue with being overly self-conscious in human beings and the destructive paranoia of such when looked at outside of type as an area we could all do with examining, is probably a thread in it's own right.

****To clarify: I tend to distinguish thoughtless nihilism "the universe is meaningless /end" from thoughtful nihilism "The universe is meaningless, what does that say about the freedom to create meaning and it's relation to myself?"
 
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