Controlling people

[Kasper]

If only some controlling people would share their thought processes in this thread.

Come out come out wherever you are! I promise not to berate you. Just trying to understand so I don't get the urge to decapitate the next one of you to pull your stunts.

You! Here! Now!

Other people's convictions about what they want or what they think is "right" leads them to consciously think it's okay to impose directly upon others to implement their plans.

That's the way I see it. Everyone thinks they know best (particually them dang NTs )

 

[Totenkindly]

These are the people I don't understand . . . the imposition! Is it ok to them because they would not mind being on the receiving end of it, or are they just above recognizing the sanctity of others' space (mental and physical)?

A variety of motivations.

Remember the three "relating styles" of karen Horney, absorbed into Enneagram theory?

- Moving Towards (2's, ISFJ, etc.)
- Moving Against (8's, ExTJ, etc.)
- Moving Away (5's, INTP, etc.)

Some people have a natural inclination to dominate others. It's their natural mode. They feel insecure if they are not in charge. When unsure, they'll dominate.

Other people have religious/personal beliefs where they think they're doing what is "good for the other person and/or the world" by imposing on them. (Hence all the political arguments nowadays with religious people, as an example.) They know better; therefore it is their job to protect you against yourself.

Parents and those granted authority status also impose on others as part of their position, sometimes in bad ways. Again, it's a "duty."

And of course there are those who are just purely selfish/egotistical and disregard the feelings of others. Their needs and wants are more important; and they force others to accommodate them rather than working towards a reasonable compromise.

That's the way I see it. Everyone thinks they know best (particually them dang NTs )

I know, I'm sorry.

If we weren't so RIGHT all the time, it would be easier to back off.

I have no clue, but I do not like them

...sam I am.

 

[INA]

You! Here! Now!

And of course there are those who are just purely selfish/egotistical and disregard the feelings of others. Their needs and wants are more important; and they force others to accommodate them rather than working towards a reasonable compromise.

These. Where it should be apparent that the iron fist approach is counterproductive, it puzzles me when they keep on with it. I'm guessing this may have something to do with it:

Some people have a natural inclination to dominate others. It's their natural mode. They feel insecure if they are not in charge. When unsure, they'll ^attempt to^ dominate.

 

[Totenkindly]

These. Where it should be apparent that the iron fist approach is counterproductive, it puzzles me when they keep on with it. I'm guessing this may have something to do with it...

It seems pretty typical to me.

My natural mode is to withdraw (avoid the danger when I'm anxious).
I only engage if I have to.

If I do engage, my next mode is to connect/placate. (Again, avoid the danger.)

Only if all else fails, or if I feel I have a good sense of the danger and the risk is acceptable, will I "fight" with someone and use some sort of direct active force. (Tp me, active fighting results in the most potential loss.)

The dominators, meanwhile, feel safest when they are on the offensive. They feel worse when they try to placate or when they run and hide.

 

[substitute]

I can understand wanting strict control of yourself, but please explain to me people who have an interventionist, controlling approach to other people. What goes on in your mind? Is it lack of self-control?

Cos they think they're helping. They have difficulty in discerning that fine line between constructive, solicited help and unwanted, interfering busy-bodying, and confuse the two. They see somebody in a situation that they would not be happy in and reason that the problem needs to be solved, and set about forcing the person to do what would work for them, not having learned to first check whether the other person even is unhappy with their situation, or wants help, or that their solution is universally applicable.

Difficult as it is to bear in mind when you're the subject of it, when you've become somebody's project... the most usual thing is that they honestly think they're helping. And even that they know what's good for you - even better than you do.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S. Lewis

 

[Jack Flak]

C.S. Lewis said it, right about there.

 

[INA]

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S. Lewis

As someone who has been on the receiving end of tyranny exercised for the tyrants benefit (which is what I'm most interested in here), I can say that it's not a bunch of roses, either.

It is somewhat related to that phenomenon of arguing with a brick wall. I tend to avoid it. If it is clear to me the point is not to discuss but simply to state and defend by any means one position and there will be no budging on it, I am not interested. They go their way and I go mine. Yet I've seen people who get into the same lengthy and fevered discussion with the same people over and over again and wonder why they do it if they don't have to.

 

[Totenkindly]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of tyranny exercised for the tyrants benefit (which is what I'm most interested in here), I can say that it's not a bunch of roses, either.

It is if all the petals have fallen off and all you have left is thorns.

(Think big!)

 

[colmena]

I was a very dominating child. My parents still call me "Boss".

I'd like to better my ability at helping people learn for themselves. Show them the things I encountered that led to my values, rather than just saying mine are "right".

I guess it stems from a lack of trust; that humanity can't think for themselves. And when you study psychology, the lack of independent thought is quite obvious. The Century of the Self is a good example.

I guess political/business manipulation will topple on itself when education has been pushed far enough.

 

[Nocapszy]

It's 'cause, some people are inconsiderate.
They don't know that I'm after different things than they are. When I don't succeed in accomplishing what they thought I wanted to, they try to correct me.

They think they're an altruist, but they didn't even bother to research my goal.
Well, even if they did, they'll say that I'm wrong for wanting that instead of the same thing they want.

 

[INA]

I was a very dominating child. My parents still call me "Boss".

I'd like to better my ability at helping people learn for themselves. Show them the things I encountered that led to my values, rather than just saying mine are "right".

I guess it stems from a lack of trust; that humanity can't think for themselves. And when you study psychology, the lack of independent thought is quite obvious. The Century of the Self is a good example.

I guess political/business manipulation will topple on itself when education has been pushed far enough.

Aha, so one of them finally outs self! Gotcha.

Lack of trust. hmm . . . I can see that, but is it because you were given reason not to trust or is it just a general lack of faith in people?

 

[INA]

It's 'cause, some people are inconsiderate.
They don't know that I'm after different things than they are. When I don't succeed in accomplishing what they thought I wanted to, they try to correct me.

But what if you are after the same goal, yet the controlling intervenor cannot leave you to meet at the designated point, and instead disregards your boundaries to make sure you are there the way they want you to get there? why.the.hell?

 

[Nocapszy]

That sounds more like a compulsion.
But this thread sounds more like a gripe.

Things are never what you think they are anymore.
I'm getting confused.

 

[INA]

Yes, it does seem compulsive to me. If I did not have a habit of being late for our meet ups, but she has to make sure I'm up when she thinks I should be up, and must call, then I have to wonder if she's in control of her faculties. This reasoning is more convincing to me because she hung up when I picked up, suggesting that she's aware that this was boundary crossing, but went ahead and did it anyway.

 

[substitute]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of tyranny exercised for the tyrants benefit (which is what I'm most interested in here), I can say that it's not a bunch of roses, either.

It is somewhat related to that phenomenon of arguing with a brick wall. I tend to avoid it. If it is clear to me the point is not to discuss but simply to state and defend by any means one position and there will be no budging on it, I am not interested. They go their way and I go mine. Yet I've seen people who get into the same lengthy and fevered discussion with the same people over and over again and wonder why they do it if they don't have to.

Yeah, I've had an intense experience of this over the past year or so with a certain INFJ priest... just absolutely no willingness to budge, to move, to alter anything at all on account of my views or anyone else's, as far as I can tell. Even when the majority of the congregation clearly is against him, is clearly in favour of some improvement I've suggested that's in everyone's interest... nope. This guy has his routine, his way of doing things, he likes everything *just so* and it's like that for a REASON dontcha know... (ha, yeah, the reason being it makes things easier for HIM), so don't even bother going there. :steam:

I don't think this one is about type so much as just selfishness and stubbornness, which can infect any person of any type...

 

[Totenkindly]

But what if you are after the same goal, yet the controlling intervenor cannot leave you to meet at the designated point, and instead disregards your boundaries to make sure you are there the way they want you to get there? why.the.hell?

Who is this again?

The motivation potential changes based on context.
(A parent or boss might do this for different reasons than a friend.)

My INTJ boss used to be a control freak, until he had heart issues.
It taught him a BIG lesson on how to "let go."
Now he's been the opposite (in the good ways) for five years or so.

(Although occasionally anytime there is a problem he immediately tries to Te the problem and tell me exactly how to solve it... based on HIS style... and it comes across as a command. e.g., "Call so-and-so on the phone right now and ask them X, Y, and Z.")

 

[Anja]

With some people I think it might be OCD. It certainly is a personal sense of security issue - manipulating "things" to calm one's self.

 

[Nocapszy]

OCD is a myth.
Jamie and Adam proved it.

 

[Nocapszy]

Who is this again?

The motivation potential changes based on context.
(A parent or boss might do this for different reasons than a friend.)

My INTJ boss used to be a control freak, until he had heart issues.
It taught him a BIG lesson on how to "let go."
Now he's been the opposite (in the good ways) for five years or so.

(Although occasionally anytime there is a problem he immediately tries to Te the problem and tell me exactly how to solve it... based on HIS style... and it comes across as a command. e.g., "Call so-and-so on the phone right now and ask them X, Y, and Z.")

I always like to list conceit, a specific brand of it, as the cause.
That is, to my controlling father, I mention how conceited he is for thinking that I wanted to do things his way, or that I had the same goals, and that his judgement is better etc.

But that might be because I have some kind of odd obsession with conceit.

 

[colmena]

Aha, so one of them finally outs self! Gotcha.

I've only just seen the thread.

Lack of trust. hmm . . . I can see that, but is it because you were given reason not to trust or is it just a general lack of faith in people?

I provided a handy semi-colon and part-explanation. Lack of independent thought, manipulation, lack of respect for nature etc.

I can't think properly because people are making noise around me.