Secondary trauma and typology

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Secondary traumatic stress is the emotional duress that results when an individual hears about the firsthand trauma experiences of another. Its symptoms mimic those of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Accordingly, individuals affected by secondary stress may find themselves re-experiencing personal trauma or notice an increase in arousal and avoidance reactions related to the indirect trauma exposure. They may also experience changes in memory and perception; alterations in their sense of self-efficacy; a depletion of personal resources; and disruption in their perceptions of safety, trust, and independence.

I think some people may be at an increased risk of internalizing other peoples' emotions and experiences. Like, there's that one trope about a character who doesn't want to touch others because it hurts him in some way.

I wonder the extent to which one experiences secondary trauma is related to Myers Briggs type, enneagram, or instinctual variant

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

These are all good questions. I'm also curious what types tend to be more immune from it.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

This is related to a concept developed from Freudian psychology called "projective identification"

Projective identification - Wikipedia

Projective identification is a term introduced by Melanie Klein to describe the process whereby in a close relationship, as between mother and child, lovers, or therapist and patient, parts of the self may in unconscious fantasy be thought of as being forced into the other person.[1]

While based on Freud's concept of psychological projection,[2] projective identification represents a step beyond. In R.D. Laing's words, "The one person does not use the other merely as a hook to hang projections on. He/she strives to find in the other, or to induce the other to become, the very embodiment of projection".[3] Feelings which can not be consciously accessed are defensively projected into another person in order to evoke the thoughts or feelings projected.[4]

Projective identification may be used as a type of defence, a means of communicating, a primitive form of relationship, or a route to psychological change;[5] used for ridding the self of unwanted parts or for controlling the other's body and mind.[6]

Though a difficult concept for the conscious mind to come to terms with,[7] since its primitive nature makes its operation or interpretation seem more like magic or art than science,[8] projective identification is nonetheless a powerful tool of interpersonal communication.

The recipient of the projection may suffer a loss of both identity and insight as they are caught up in and manipulated by the other person's fantasy.[9] One therapist, for example, describes how "I felt the progressive extrusion of his internalized mother into me, not as a theoretical construct but in actual experience. The intonation of my voice altered, became higher with the distinctly Ur-mutter quality."[10] If the projection can be accepted and understood, however, much insight into the projector will be obtained.

Projective identification differs from simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby a person, believing something false about another, influences or coerces that other person to carry out that precise projection.[11] In extreme cases, the recipient may lose any sense of their real self and become reduced to the passive carriers of outside projections, as if possessed by them.[12]

 

[Tilt]

I know that I have primary PTSD due to my early childhood experiences so it affects how I relate and emotionally attach to people. With the susceptibility, I think I could easily internalize others' trauma without being mindful. Since NFs tend to read into the emotional content of things, they would probably struggle the most with secondary PTSD.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

The one person does not use the other merely as a hook to hang projections on. He/she strives to find in the other, or to induce the other to become, the very embodiment of projection".[3] Feelings which can not be consciously accessed are defensively projected into another person in order to evoke the thoughts or feelings projected.[4]

This sounds like narcissistic manipulation or some aspect of borderline personality disorder.

I just want to go on record and say I don't buy into secondary PTSD. If it exists? That's a terrible name for it. I don't see the trauma aspect being super-imposed. Projection, in the way this is described as something I see as detrimental. Far separated from the being touched or affected by emotions or trauma to another. This "secondary PTSD" seems to have no distinction between self and other. That's a problem.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

This sounds like narcissistic manipulation or some aspect of borderline personality disorder.

I just want to go on record and say I don't buy into secondary PTSD. If it exists? That's a terrible name for it. I don't see the trauma aspect being super-imposed. Projection, in the way this is described as something I see as detrimental. Far separated from the being touched or affected by emotions or trauma to another. This "secondary PTSD" seems to have no distinction between self and other. That's a problem.

How bout Unpleasant Emotional Transference?

I've heard people say that they felt better after a hug, so I don't think it is outlandish to consider that it might've made the other person feel worse.

I gtg for now.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

How bout Unpleasant Emotional Transference?

I've heard people say that they felt better after a hug, so I don't think it is outlandish to consider that it might've made the other person feel worse.

I gtg for now.

Ok. But what you're described doesn't sound like what the projection is all about at all in the article.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. What do you see the article expressing?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Ok. But what you're described doesn't sound like what the projection is all about at all in the article.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. What do you see the article expressing?

I don't see a link to the original article quoted about secondary PTSD, so there could be more explanation.

I don't think that secondary PTSD or projective identification are considered constructive or something to embrace or attempt to experience. They are different than regular empathy because it is more invasive and unbalanced. When a person is experiencing either one it means you have to work on it to re-establish healthy boundaries. It's not a sustainable state to be experiencing.

Secondary PTSD I suspect has a lot to do with triggering someone else's own history of trauma, so I can see how the term is questionable because is it really secondary or a re-triggering of a primary PTSD.

Oddly enough I'm struggling with these types of issue right now, and it's not a good thing. It will be a good thing once I get it sorted out because I'll learn alot about it. If I can think of a way to summarize the main points without going into too much detail that would be best. I've been listening and befriending a lady who has a history and current experience with brutal attacks, but she doesn't feel like she can feel rage because of her religion which emphasizes forgiveness. When we talk, there is a way I feel that true outrage is NOT being addressed, so I feel an intense pull to feel the outrage that is missing in her. This is all very instinctual, but there is a feeling that if I show it, then she will be able to start to feel it, but the process is more rigid and it's not following that expected flow. I also have times in my history where I faced threat, abuse, and being unsafe, so those feelings have intensified in me as well, and I'm hypervigilent going in and out of my car, I've had some nightmares and chronic muscle pain/headaches. What is difficult when experiencing this phenomenon is that some of the emotion and vigilence belongs to me as a natural response, but the intensifying of it belongs to her, and what counselors will emphasize is that you do not want to feel someone's anger and pain for them because it belongs to them. They deserve to acknowledge those feelings in response to what happened to them. Those feelings once acknowledged will help them heal and feel empowered again. By expressing concern, even experiencing some empathy, you can form a connection, but if the process feels like it is detrimental to your own self, then you are not helping that person or yourself. By pushing back you help the person understand that they've earned their anger and it is their path to empowerment and strength. If you walk it for them, you have taken something important from them.

One therapist, for example, describes how "I felt the progressive extrusion of his internalized mother into me, not as a theoretical construct but in actual experience. The intonation of my voice altered, became higher with the distinctly Ur-mutter quality."[10] If the projection can be accepted and understood, however, much insight into the projector will be obtained.

While I don't understand the business about the "ur-mutter" voice reference, this quote describe that it is only in moving past the phenomenon that insight is gained, but I don't think it is approved of as a deliberate method of gaining insight. The exact same thing can be said of primary trauma - yes you can gain insight, but it's not healthy to deliberately decide to learn about trauma by letting it happen to you.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Ok. But what you're described doesn't sound like what the projection is all about at all in the article.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. What do you see the article expressing?

[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] posted the thing about projection. I meant to discuss the concept of emotional transference in a general way. I think there are probably degrees to which people are affected by the negative emotions of others and maybe not necessarily so severe as trauma.

The controversial ideas of Post-Traumatic Slavery Syndrome and Holocaust-Related Secondary Trauma may have affected how secondary trauma is perceived.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Ok. I sought to make the distinction between emotional transference and projection as I find conflating them to be careless. Even though I made that conflation. Lol. That's how I saw the thread unravelling.

[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] thanks for that well explained reply. It did clear some things up. (I also didn't understand the "un-mutter"/reason for the therapist connecting with the mother figure. Still don't)

[MENTION=21203]Grand Admiral Crunch[/MENTION]

I have not heard of either of those things mentioned. I will look it up. Thanks.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Secondary PTSD I suspect has a lot to do with triggering someone else's own history of trauma, so I can see how the term is questionable because is it really secondary or a re-triggering of a primary PTSD.

It probably could be that, but it doesn't seem to be that exclusively. Here's an excerpt from an article about secondary trauma of children of holocaust survivors (https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/trm-1534765612449659.pdf).

Secondary trauma refers to the experience of negative emotions and consequent behaviors that result from close or extended contact with a traumatized individual (Figley,
1995; Motta, 2008). The symptoms of secondary trauma nearly parallel those of PTSD; however, secondary trauma symptoms differ in that they are generated from the
knowledge of a traumatic event that occurred to a significant other, rather than from the direct experience of the traumatic event (Figley, 1995). Secondary trauma symptoms are also similar
to, but not as severe as, those experienced in PTSD...

Oddly enough I'm struggling with these types of issue right now, and it's not a good thing. It will be a good thing once I get it sorted out because I'll learn alot about it. If I can think of a way to summarize the main points without going into too much detail that would be best. I've been listening and befriending a lady who has a history and current experience with brutal attacks, but she doesn't feel like she can feel rage because of her religion which emphasizes forgiveness. When we talk, there is a way I feel that true outrage is NOT being addressed, so I feel an intense pull to feel the outrage that is missing in her. This is all very instinctual, but there is a feeling that if I show it, then she will be able to start to feel it, but the process is more rigid and it's not following that expected flow. I also have times in my history where I faced threat, abuse, and being unsafe, so those feelings have intensified in me as well, and I'm hypervigilent going in and out of my car, I've had some nightmares and chronic muscle pain/headaches. What is difficult when experiencing this phenomenon is that some of the emotion and vigilence belongs to me as a natural response, but the intensifying of it belongs to her, and what counselors will emphasize is that you do not want to feel someone's anger and pain for them because it belongs to them. They deserve to acknowledge those feelings in response to what happened to them. Those feelings once acknowledged will help them heal and feel empowered again. By expressing concern, even experiencing some empathy, you can form a connection, but if the process feels like it is detrimental to your own self, then you are not helping that person or yourself. By pushing back you help the person understand that they've earned their anger and it is their path to empowerment and strength. If you walk it for them, you have taken something important from them.

Do you have other things in common with this lady?...It is rather difficult to watch someone suffer in a way that you've experienced. I think there is an urge to fix it for them....Do you experience the negative emotions of people who are less related to you?

This part about feelings belonging to a particular person is interesting. I just finished reading "Second Star to the Right." The character describes herself being drained of her happiness when she shares it with her mother. It seems that the eating disorder she develops later is a way to separate herself from her mother.

 

[Rambling]

Does it link in to narcissism?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

It probably could be that, but it doesn't seem to be that exclusively. Here's an excerpt from an article about secondary trauma of children of holocaust survivors (https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/trm-1534765612449659.pdf).

Very interesting article - I am interested to read that carefully through. I know a man whose parents were in concentration camps from another country, and so he grew up with the family narrative of many horrors. It may have affected the way he responds to new traumas. In his case, he has developed an extreme form of denial. I do think that we are affected by the pain our loved ones have experienced, and so if you know your mother or uncle, etc. was horribly mistreated, then the world is not going to seem like a safe place. It would definitely have an effect, so the real question is what is the nature of that affect and to what degree is the person affected. It will be interesting what others say as well.

Does it link in to narcissism?

That's an interesting question because narcissism does break down the boundary between self and other. I've known people with narcissistic inclinations react to the pain of others by taking in on in a way, but it becomes all about them and not the other person. For example, if you live with a narcissist and have chronic back pain, then the narcissist may also take on back pain, but also demand that you constantly nurse them back to health regardless of how much pain you are in. The difference between someone being empathetic (even to an unhealthy degree) and someone being narcissistic is seen in how they resolve the problem of taking on that pain. If it increases selfishness and taking, then it could be narcissism, but if it increases caring for the other person's pain, then it could be empathy related. Empathy is about truth and reality while narcissism is a distortion of reality. That is what I understand about it.

 

[Rambling]

Very interesting article - I am interested to read that carefully through. I know a man whose parents were in concentration camps from another country, and so he grew up with the family narrative of many horrors. It may have affected the way he responds to new traumas. In his case, he has developed an extreme form of denial. I do think that we are affected by the pain our loved ones have experienced, and so if you know your mother or uncle, etc. was horribly mistreated, then the world is not going to seem like a safe place. It would definitely have an effect, so the real question is what is the nature of that affect and to what degree is the person affected. It will be interesting what others say as well.

That's an interesting question because narcissism does break down the boundary between self and other. I've known people with narcissistic inclinations react to the pain of others by taking in on in a way, but it becomes all about them and not the other person. For example, if you live with a narcissist and have chronic back pain, then the narcissist may also take on back pain, but also demand that you constantly nurse them back to health regardless of how much pain you are in. The difference between someone being empathetic (even to an unhealthy degree) and someone being narcissistic is seen in how they resolve the problem of taking on that pain. If it increases selfishness and taking, then it could be narcissism, but if it increases caring for the other person's pain, then it could be empathy related. Empathy is about truth and reality while narcissism is a distortion of reality. That is what I understand about it.

I asked because I have a family member who is exceptionally solipsistic, if not narcissistic, and I think as a result of that, growing up, I learnt to read other people exceptionally well, and to some extent to live my life according to their emotional state rather than my own; a boundary loss. It seemed to me to be somewhat similar to the effect described here.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I asked because I have a family member who is exceptionally solipsistic, if not narcissistic, and I think as a result of that, growing up, I learnt to read other people exceptionally well, and to some extent to live my life according to their emotional state rather than my own; a boundary loss. It seemed to me to be somewhat similar to the effect described here.

Oh, I see what you mean, and I think the narcissist's lack of boundaries could very plausibly create a similar effect for others. The back pain example does show that happening because you can't really tell anyone they aren't in pain, so its the perfect way to draw attention away from someone else's needs back to the narcissist. In that way the world does end up revolving around them.

A friend of mine posted this a while ago, but it's really interesting about narcissism.

What It Means When a Narcissist Says “I Love You” - The Minds Journal