what's a "real woman"?

[miss fortune]

this is the lady counterpart to the "what's a 'real man'?" thread. I asked the man question first because I'm not one and it's a complete mystery to me, however, it occurred to me that other women might think differently than I do about the whole lady side of the topic as well, so I'm interested in hearing the answers!

what is "a real woman"?

is this an attainable standard?

does this perception make it more difficult to be a woman?

does it cause problems?

 

[Korvinagor]

I think the phrase is usually called 'proper lady'...but to answer the question, I'm not quite sure. The fact that I am not a woman aside, the societal expectations for women seem even more nebulous and strange than they are for men.

To elaborate, rather than simply achieve a certain 'quota' let's say, that males are expected to achieve, it seems to me that to be a 'proper lady', much of one's behaviour becomes a balancing act: they must not be too slim or wide, they must be polite but not cold, and so on. This is compared to men, who simply need to be sufficiently cold, aloof, strong, etc. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Poki]

Pushes to be emotionally stable

Ability is a function of environment...so ability to be emotionally stable is not quite as important. A shitty environment will yeild more emotional unstability then a good environment.

Emotionally stable doesnt mean no emotions or change, just means no wild erratic pointless shifts. Pointless is defined by that person. As a person becomes more emotionally unstable they become roller coasters with things they are normally good with.

 

[Justmeonhere]

Emotional stability for sure, ethic, intelligence, strenght and ability to belive in onself. Then if we talk of stereotypes. ...

 

[Korvinagor]

Emotional stability for sure, ethic, intelligence, strenght and ability to belive in onself. Then if we talk of stereotypes. ...

While these are certainly values that I think society would appreciate in women, it appears to me that these qualities when placed in strong emphasis are rejected as something a 'proper lady' ought to be. For example, I feel like the world expects women to not only be level headed, but also simultaneously loving and caring at the same time.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

One comfortable with her own femininity as defined by herself. Like a "real man," she is confident in her identity.

And transwomen are real women in my eyes.

EDIT:
forgot to answer [MENTION=15588]Miss[/MENTION]fortune's follow up questions

is this an attainable standard? - it depends on the individual woman and whether she is setting standards she can attain. Of course there's nothing wrong with aiming higher, as long as one understands they may not always reach the apex of standards set for themselves. If they are trying to meet standards set by others then they should first question whether said standards line up with their values and life goals.

does this perception make it more difficult to be a woman? - I don't think so, I think it's a very broad net that can encompass a wide range of different standards, those to be aimed for determined by each individual woman, of course.

does it cause problems? - if the standards are unrealistic or unnattainable to the point that it causes the person to deny their own values or goals.

 

[Justmeonhere]

While these are certainly values that I think society would appreciate in women, it appears to me that these qualities when placed in strong emphasis are rejected as something a 'proper lady' ought to be. For example, I feel like the world expects women to not only be level headed, but also simultaneously loving and caring at the same time.

That's true but the term proper lady it's a bit outdated for our time. I agree that the role of women today it's not so clear. I'm for the do whetever you want if it's ethical and it isn't proibited by the law. You want to be a proper lady? Do it! You want to be a tomboy? Do it. You want to be all these things and more? Do it! That's what I was trying to say. Society has no clear ideas on women so stick to the moral things. In the past society's idea of women was clear but let's say horrible? So society doesn't matter so much. That's my idea obviously.

 

[bedeviled1]

It's obvious that more has always been expected of a woman. Some behavior accepted of men is unacceptable by a "proper" woman. While the women's movement has seen extremes, as a man, even I can see the playing field has never been level. That being said I believe women have had great power over men through time.

 

[miss fortune]

the definitions that I always had shoved down my throat growing up involved being nurturing, maternal, able to tell which silverware goes where around a plate, being good at housekeeping and above all, adhering to the feminine stereotypes of behavior

I've always sucked at these things... I was the little girl who played with the boys at recess because I thought that dolls were lame and wanted to go and kick some shins and climb some trees instead. growing up I liked to participate in sports, hung out with the guys and got more of my socialization from them that still sticks with me today... be strong, don't show emotions, if you want something make it yours and be able to stand on your own two feet. I feel guilty if I can't live up to those standards... more guilty than I feel about not living up to the standards I was given for my own gender.

as a result, from time to time, I feel like I've kind of failed at being a woman... when I look at it rationally, I KNOW that I'm a woman because I've got the right bits and feel at home with having those bits and have no desire to have the other set of bits... I just don't like mentally being a "proper" woman. I'm a bad woman... I don't know my place and I speak up when it's not my turn... I pursue what and who I want and I don't have a maternal bone in my body. would I change who I am to fit those standards better? no... I am who I am and as long as I'm doing others no harm, why should I have to change that? I just kind of feel like a failure nonetheless, in that illogical portion of my brain that occasionally speaks up when I'm a bit down

and I don't think that anyone can naturally attain those qualities... I don't know if others feel the same way though, so a thread has been made

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

the definitions that I always had shoved down my throat growing up involved being nurturing, maternal, able to tell which silverware goes where around a plate, being good at housekeeping and above all, adhering to the feminine stereotypes of behavior

I've always sucked at these things... I was the little girl who played with the boys at recess because I thought that dolls were lame and wanted to go and kick some shins and climb some trees instead. growing up I liked to participate in sports, hung out with the guys and got more of my socialization from them that still sticks with me today... be strong, don't show emotions, if you want something make it yours and be able to stand on your own two feet. I feel guilty if I can't live up to those standards... more guilty than I feel about not living up to the standards I was given for my own gender.

as a result, from time to time, I feel like I've kind of failed at being a woman... when I look at it rationally, I KNOW that I'm a woman because I've got the right bits and feel at home with having those bits and have no desire to have the other set of bits... I just don't like mentally being a "proper" woman. I'm a bad woman... I don't know my place and I speak up when it's not my turn... I pursue what and who I want and I don't have a maternal bone in my body. would I change who I am to fit those standards better? no... I am who I am and as long as I'm doing others no harm, why should I have to change that? I just kind of feel like a failure nonetheless, in that illogical portion of my brain that occasionally speaks up when I'm a bit down

and I don't think that anyone can naturally attain those qualities... I don't know if others feel the same way though, so a thread has been made

grouping in schools is a problem. Let's just group the girls together and the boys together... but what about girls who want to act like crazy people with the boys swinging from bars and stomping on dandelions? What about the boys who want to sit and braid hair?

I think grouping into work and play groups should instead be based on a mix of personality/temperament and general interests. Identify their interests like in Montessori schools, but then put the sporty kids together, put the artsy kids together, put the science-inclined kids together, and so on. There would be general social time where all groups intermingled, and I would hope some work activities to necessitate mixing groups, so as to give the kids a more realistic experience of having to work with and learn to deal with people with different personalities.

do this in most schools and I think a lot of gender hangups people have will disappear within a generation or two.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

 

[Justmeonhere]

the definitions that I always had shoved down my throat growing up involved being nurturing, maternal, able to tell which silverware goes where around a plate, being good at housekeeping and above all, adhering to the feminine stereotypes of behavior

I've always sucked at these things... I was the little girl who played with the boys at recess because I thought that dolls were lame and wanted to go and kick some shins and climb some trees instead. growing up I liked to participate in sports, hung out with the guys and got more of my socialization from them that still sticks with me today... be strong, don't show emotions, if you want something make it yours and be able to stand on your own two feet. I feel guilty if I can't live up to those standards... more guilty than I feel about not living up to the standards I was given for my own gender.

as a result, from time to time, I feel like I've kind of failed at being a woman... when I look at it rationally, I KNOW that I'm a woman because I've got the right bits and feel at home with having those bits and have no desire to have the other set of bits... I just don't like mentally being a "proper" woman. I'm a bad woman... I don't know my place and I speak up when it's not my turn... I pursue what and who I want and I don't have a maternal bone in my body. would I change who I am to fit those standards better? no... I am who I am and as long as I'm doing others no harm, why should I have to change that? I just kind of feel like a failure nonetheless, in that illogical portion of my brain that occasionally speaks up when I'm a bit down

and I don't think that anyone can naturally attain those qualities... I don't know if others feel the same way though, so a thread has been made

Oh I know what you feel! I was the little girl that played with cars and hated dolls.
I can understand you well. But don't be ashamed of yourself. Everybody is different and not being a nurturing type or you aren't the typical girl. This doesn 't matter if someone is a good person.

 

[uumlau]

From my perspective/experience, the main distinction I see is "real woman" vs "girl", where a "girl" is full of all the insecurities and wishful thinking that are typical of most young girls. A real woman is someone whom I have to get to know and understand. A girl is someone who tries to be whatever she thinks I want her to be. As such, a "girl" is almost impossible to know.

 

[ceecee]

the definitions that I always had shoved down my throat growing up involved being nurturing, maternal, able to tell which silverware goes where around a plate, being good at housekeeping and above all, adhering to the feminine stereotypes of behavior

I've always sucked at these things... I was the little girl who played with the boys at recess because I thought that dolls were lame and wanted to go and kick some shins and climb some trees instead. growing up I liked to participate in sports, hung out with the guys and got more of my socialization from them that still sticks with me today... be strong, don't show emotions, if you want something make it yours and be able to stand on your own two feet. I feel guilty if I can't live up to those standards... more guilty than I feel about not living up to the standards I was given for my own gender.

as a result, from time to time, I feel like I've kind of failed at being a woman... when I look at it rationally, I KNOW that I'm a woman because I've got the right bits and feel at home with having those bits and have no desire to have the other set of bits... I just don't like mentally being a "proper" woman. I'm a bad woman... I don't know my place and I speak up when it's not my turn... I pursue what and who I want and I don't have a maternal bone in my body. would I change who I am to fit those standards better? no... I am who I am and as long as I'm doing others no harm, why should I have to change that? I just kind of feel like a failure nonetheless, in that illogical portion of my brain that occasionally speaks up when I'm a bit down

and I don't think that anyone can naturally attain those qualities... I don't know if others feel the same way though, so a thread has been made

I understand where you're coming from. I didn't have high confidence that I would be nurturing or maternal enough when I had children. Fortunately for them and me, I was wrong. There was much nurturing, there still is. But I would rip off the face of anyone I deemed threatening to them. To me, those aren't conflicting qualities.

I know I look stereotypical female but I don't feel stereotypically female. Not that I'm having gender dysphoria. I'm comfortable being a woman with my personality. I don't think I need to change that and neither do you, if you are comfortable with how you feel. Most of the time, when I get to know people, they also don't have issues with my personality and being female. And I have a partner that has never seemed threatened or disliked it at all. He knows I would shiv someone for him, if need be. You won't find that in every woman.

 

[uumlau]

I understand where you're coming from. I didn't have high confidence that I would be nurturing or maternal enough when I had children. Fortunately for them and me, I was wrong. There was much nurturing, there still is. But I would rip off the face of anyone I deemed threatening to them. To me, those aren't conflicting qualities.

I know I look stereotypical female but I don't feel stereotypically female. Not that I'm having gender dysphoria. I'm comfortable being a woman with my personality. I don't think I need to change that and neither do you, if you are comfortable with how you feel. Most of the time, when I get to know people, they also don't have issues with my personality and being female. And I have a partner that has never seemed threatened or disliked it at all. He knows I would shiv someone for him, if need be. You won't find that in every woman.

^^ FYI, folks, this is a real woman.

 

[ceecee]

^^ FYI, folks, this is a real woman.

Aw, thanks uumy.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

grouping in schools is a problem. Let's just group the girls together and the boys together... but what about girls who want to act like crazy people with the boys swinging from bars and stomping on dandelions? What about the boys who want to sit and braid hair?

I think grouping into work and play groups should instead be based on a mix of personality/temperament and general interests. Identify their interests like in Montessori schools, but then put the sporty kids together, put the artsy kids together, put the science-inclined kids together, and so on. There would be general social time where all groups intermingled, and I would hope some work activities to necessitate mixing groups, so as to give the kids a more realistic experience of having to work with and learn to deal with people with different personalities.

do this in most schools and I think a lot of gender hangups people have will disappear within a generation or two.

This is an awesome idea.

 

[Lark]

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Meh. I'm glad there is a thread for both men and women, but I still hate this question nonetheless. No matter how you answer, you're gonna make someone who's reading it feel bad somewhere for not measuring up in another's eyes. That doesn't sit well with me. I am a work in progress and yet I am a real woman. I guess that's what's beautiful about romance and mating; you get to pick your partner based on what you find valuable. I'm sure for every person who is drawn to me, another cannot stand me. Does that mean I am not a real woman just because I don't fit a specific ideal? I don't really think so...

 

[Magic Poriferan]

My answer would be so close to a copy and paste of the one in the other thread that I'm not going to write it.